Health Care Reform - almost a done deal? DONE

[calculusrocks]

Please do - and don't forget to explain the circumstances.

Didn't know it'd take more than a couple hours to use wikipedia.

 

[Office_Shredder]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/08/palin-crossed-border-for_n_490080.html

Referring to when she was a child:

Former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin -- who has gone to great lengths to hype the supposed dangers of a big government takeover of American health care -- admitted over the weekend that she used to get her treatment in Canada's single-payer system.

"We used to hustle over the border for health care we received in Canada," Palin said in her first Canadian appearance since stepping down as governor of Alaska. "And I think now, isn't that ironic?"

 

[calculusrocks]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/08/palin-crossed-border-for_n_490080.html

Referring to when she was a child:

Huff. Post huh? Gee, I'm a little skeptical.

 

[calculusrocks]

So even taking it at face value, did she go to Canada for critical treatments such as heart surgery? Like my original question asked?

 

[Office_Shredder]

Huff. Post huh? Gee, I'm a little skeptical.

Seriously. Then why don't you look on google and find out yourself? This isn't hard. Just search for 'sarah palin went to Canada for healthcare'

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20000152-503544.html
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2010/03/sarah-palin-canadian-health-care.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/sarah-palin/7409555/Sarah-Palins-family-sought-health-care-in-Canada.html
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2010/03/palin-says-she-used-canadian-h.html
http://politicalwire.com/archives/2010/03/08/palin_went_to_canada_for_health_care.html

So even taking it at face value, did she go to Canada for critical treatments such as heart surgery? Like my original question asked?

When she was a kid, the nearest city was a Canadian city, so when they had health issues they went there for health care. She specifically cites when her brother burned his ankle and they had to rush him onto a train that was going to Canada.

This is an example of how a more average American family had better access to health care from the Canadian system than the American system

 

[Argentum Vulpes]

...
When she was a kid, the nearest city was a Canadian city, so when they had health issues they went there for health care. She specifically cites when her brother burned his ankle and they had to rush him onto a train that was going to Canada.

This is an example of how a more average American family had better access to health care from the Canadian system than the American system

How about the fact that more then 10 min without oxygen brain damage is very likely and irreversible [218]. Also that if her brother was 5 or younger, or the burn was a critical/moderate burn the risk of Shock is incredibly high [715-718]. Given these two facts the decision to transport across the border to the nearest hospital facilities was the best idea and most logical. Also even ALS services are not as good as getting someone to an ER. Paramedics are trained in stabilization, not in treatment [4-5]. Finlay when the option arises to drive X or Y amounts and X is much greater than Y you goto Y, even if it is across the Canadian border.

Information came from:
Emergency Care and treatment of the sick and injured. Ninth edition. Series Editor, Andrew N. Pollak, MD, FAAOS. Copyright 2005.

 

[Al68]

The Republican party has made its platform into the "Party of No".

Too little too late. They should have been shouting no to these kinds of attacks on liberty much louder, and much more consistently.

Republicans are the ones I blame for this. Blaming Democrats is like blaming a wolf for eating a sheep instead of blaming the shepherd for sleeping on the job.

I may be a libertarian, but I'm not so married to my ideology that I cannot make an exception.

Your position on this issue is anti-libertarian, as you know. Your positions on other issues are irrelevant to this thread.

As far the implication that anyone should be ashamed of being "married" to libertarianism, that's just silly. Libertarianism is more like a best friend with benefits. :!)

 

[Al68]

That is hardly fallacious. Countries with higher levels of centralized, governmental control of health care tend to have longer average lifespans and lower rates of infant mortality. I am eager to see how this correlation does not imply causation.

Google "logical fallacies". This is one of the most famous ones in history, that a correlation like this implies a causal relationship.

Socialist policies are not socialism.

LOL. Yep, that's why you called them socialist policies. Because they're nothing like socialism. Gotcha. :rofl:

 

[calculusrocks]

Too little too late. They should have been shouting no to these kinds of attacks on liberty much louder, and much more consistently.

Republicans are the ones I blame for this. Blaming Democrats is like blaming a wolf for eating a sheep instead of blaming the shepherd for sleeping on the job.Your position on this issue is anti-libertarian, as you know. Your positions on other issues are irrelevant to this thread.

As far the implication that anyone should be ashamed of being "married" to libertarianism, that's just silly. Libertarianism is more like a best friend with benefits. :!)

Republicans hasn't exactly done very much for the liberty conscious. I'm shocked they were even able to mount a filibuster. That being said, I don't know why republicans are what come up in this debate. The democrats own congress. They own the presidency. They had 60 senators, filibuster proof majority, and yet they still blame republicans for not helping democrats trample over individual liberty.

 

[WhoWee]

This is an example of how a more average American family had better access to health care from the Canadian system than the American system

Actually, this is an example of how a system can be abused by illegals.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I won't be able to tune in today so the anticipation will be killing me, but it looks like the Dems have the votes. YAY!

Responding to Russ's comments earlier regaring amendments, as I told him in person, no doubt we will be tweeking this for decades; and we would be no matter what passes. What matters most is that after 70 years of trying, we finally get over the hump.

This is truly an historic day.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Regarding popular opposition, when people discover that they no longer have lifetime caps; when their insurance can't be canceled because they got sick or pregnant; when they can't be refused insurance due to a preexisting condition, just as was true with the prescription drug plan, all of the Republican-created furor will fade away. Americans want what is in this bill.

I was struck by objections that while this may reduce the deficit, the overall cost of health care will increase. Given that 30 million people who have no insurance will now have coverage, of course it will cost more. The complaint seems to be that 30 million people should have no coverage if they can't afford it; that we have a $trillion to fight wars but not to protect American citizens from a corrupt, greedy, and inhumane insurance system. And perhaps that is what sours me on the Republicans more than anything: We always seem to have the money for wars but not for Americans.

Btw, college students, you will now be able to stay on your parent's policy until you are 26 years of age.

 

[WhoWee]

Regarding popular opposition, when people discover that they no longer have lifetime caps; when their insurance can't be canceled because they got sick or pregnant; when they can't be refused insurance due to a preexisting condition, just as was true with the prescription drug plan, all of the Republican-created furor will fade away. Americans want what is in this bill.

I was struck by objections that while this may reduce the deficit, the overall cost of health care will increase. Given that 30 million people who have no insurance will now have coverage, of course it will cost more. The complaint seems to be that 30 million people should have no coverage if they can't afford it; that we have a $trillion to fight wars but not to protect American citizens from a corrupt, greedy, and inhumane insurance system. And perhaps that is what sours me on the Republicans more than anything: We always seem to have the money for wars but not for Americans.

Btw, college students, you will now be able to stay on your parent's policy until you are 26 years of age.

How much are YOU willing to pay per year to house, feed, educate, nurture and care for others from cradle to grave Ivan? How about in YOUR lifetime - how much do you feel YOU OWE to your fellow citizen?

I assume that you (like everyone else on the PF) intend to work and contribute their "fair share" - and not sit at home and collect.

Also, how do you feel about giving more power to the IRS to enforce these mandates - and the student loan program aspects that are being included?

 

[Zefram]

How much are YOU willing to pay per year to house, feed, educate, nurture and care for others from cradle to grave Ivan? How about in YOUR lifetime - how much do you feel YOU OWE to your fellow citizen?

The current (limitless) subsidy for employer-sponsored health insurance costs about $250 billion per year. The proposed (means-tested, capped) subsidy to buyers in the individual market will cost less than that every year. These new subsidies will be paid for partially by capping the tax exclusion for employer-sponsored plans (I'm referring, of course, is the excise tax). The result: a greater degree of parity between the individual and group markets.

 

[Alfi]

how much do you feel YOU OWE to your fellow citizen?

Everything?
Individuals are an evolutionary dead end in this collective society age.

 

[mheslep]

My source is Wikipedia. My point is that the claim that "If one controls life span for these causes of death, the US is close to or at the the top" is inaccurate.

Edit: A couple of references if you are interested:

http://repository.upenn.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1012&context=psc_working_papers

See especially Table 1-3 for causes of death other than health care related, and Table 1-5 for corrected numbers.
http://www.aei.org/docLib/20061017_OhsfeldtSchneiderPresentation.pdf

Table 1-5 again, same researchers in html online
http://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2007/09/natural-life-expectancy-in-united.html

 

[calculusrocks]

Btw, college students, you will now be able to stay on your parent's policy until you are 26 years of age.

That is suppose to make me feel better? That my elected officials have turned me into a thief, moocher, and a child for life?

 

[calculusrocks]

Barack Obama is the [STRIKE]Commander in Chief[/STRIKE] Lollypop Distributor in Chief.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8sZcmQr6KY

 

[spacemanspiff]

I guess I don't understand why people who don't have health insurance can't get it? It took me all of 30 seconds to hop on ehealthinsurance.com and find dozens of plans for under $100/m. What is the problem? The pre-existing illness is a problem and maybe we can try to cut pill costs, but we need a 2400 page new bill for that?

 

[MotoH]

Has the middle class been charged 40% more for insurance yet, or are the votes still coming in?

 

[Count Iblis]

The Third World health insurance system will finally be changed to a First World one.

 

[MotoH]

The Third World health insurance system will finally be changed to a First World one.

I didn't know first world nations turned middle class citizens into poor people.

 

[turbo]

I didn't know first world nations turned middle class citizens into poor people.

The US system turns middle-class citizens into poor citizens with every catastrophic illness. The insurance companies dump you when you get sick, and you lose everything to bankruptcy when you can't pay for care or you die. When you are older and more experienced you will gain an appreciation for this. I hope you never develop a debilitating disease, but if you do, you will gain an appreciation for this health-care bill. My wife and I both have some chronic pre-existing conditions, and if she loses her job (and her health insurance), we will never be able to buy health insurance again, at least a rates that won't bankrupt us AND with ruinous caps. So many opponents of health-care reform wave the flag and talk about how the bill is socialism. Funny, it's only socialism if it benefits somebody else.

European countries manage to provide almost universal health-care coverage at about 1/2 the cost per capita of what we spend. If the US cannot do the same, our system deserves to fail.

 

[WhoWee]

Someone just explained to me that Obama needed to include student loan reform in the health care Bill because he's going to need to train a lot of new doctors (that will work for a lot less).:uhh:

 

[MotoH]

I never said the insurance system should stay they way it is. There are problems with it, and that can be fixed. But now I am paying not only for every low life piece of ****s food stamps and welfare, but their health insurance too! Where is the justice in that?

Yeah you know what, it is me first. And that is how the game of life is played. I've got enough bills to pay for already, and when I need to pay 40% more for someone who sits on their *** all day, gets a cough and goes to the doctor, it brings ME into the hole.

 

[turbo]

Someone just explained to me that Obama needed to include student loan reform in the health care Bill because he's going to need to train a lot of new doctors (that will work for a lot less).:uhh:

As long as the AMA keeps throttling the graduation/residency rate, we will have shortages of doctors. Maine has a particular problem in this regard. We need general practitioners and family doctors in rural areas. Canada has similar problems, which results in Canadians in rural provinces traveling to the US for specialized care, which the Canadian health care system pays for.

 

[WhoWee]

The US system turns middle-class citizens into poor citizens with every catastrophic illness. The insurance companies dump you when you get sick, and you lose everything to bankruptcy when you can't pay for care or you die. When you are older and more experienced you will gain an appreciation for this. I hope you never develop a debilitating disease, but if you do, you will gain an appreciation for this health-care bill. My wife and I both have some chronic pre-existing conditions, and if she loses her job (and her health insurance), we will never be able to buy health insurance again, at least a rates that won't bankrupt us AND with ruinous caps. So many opponents of health-care reform wave the flag and talk about how the bill is socialism. Funny, it's only socialism if it benefits somebody else.

European countries manage to provide almost universal health-care coverage at about 1/2 the cost per capita of what we spend. If the US cannot do the same, our system deserves to fail.

I'm afraid this Bill is not going to live up to your expectations My Friend. IMO, this Bill will double the cost of health care to working people who don't qualify for public assistance.

Again, the cost per person (to the Government) for Medicare is $850 per month. Also, the Bill does not say that pre-existing conditions can't be rated. What are YOU going to do if you HAVE to purchase a Government plan and they tell you the cost is $2,500/month - or the IRS will come to visit YOU?

I am very concerned this evening.

 

[MotoH]

I'm afraid this Bill is not going to live up to your expectations My Friend. IMO, this Bill will double the cost of health care to working people who don't qualify for public assistance.

Again, the cost per person (to the Government) for Medicare is $850 per month. Also, the Bill does not say that pre-existing conditions can't be rated. What are YOU going to do if you HAVE to purchase a Government plan and they tell you the cost is $2,500/month - or the IRS will come to visit YOU?

I am very concerned this evening.

From what I have heard from my state, if the health care bill passes, for the current plan we have the rates will double, forcing us to move to a cheaper plan which covers less.

 

[WhoWee]

As long as the AMA keeps throttling the graduation/residency rate, we will have shortages of doctors. Maine has a particular problem in this regard. We need general practitioners and family doctors in rural areas. Canada has similar problems, which results in Canadians in rural provinces traveling to the US for specialized care, which the Canadian health care system pays for.

I spoke with someone last week that needs to find a new doctor.

She is on Medicare and her doctor is tired of fighting to get paid. He joined a group of "VIP Providers" who will now require their patients to pay a "VIP Fee" of $1,500 per year to join - or they will no longer be treated.

She's been with the doctor for about 12 years.

 

[MotoH]

Well I guess I should start saving up now to be able to pay for this when I graduate from college.

 

[Office_Shredder]

intrade.com says that the healthcare bill will be passed

http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2010/Senate/Maps/Mar21-s.html#1

 

[WhoWee]

It's over - close the thread and turn off the lights (please).

 

[MotoH]

Tough luck. There will be immediate benefits, but as soon as 2016 (not sure if right year) rolls around, we will be paying through the nose for this.

 

[WhoWee]

Tough luck. There will be immediate benefits, but as soon as 2016 (not sure if right year) rolls around, we will be paying through the nose for this.

What "immediate benefits" do you think will be forthcoming - other than tax increases for the next 4 years? Are you referring to the tens of thousands of jobs due to Government expansion?

 

[MotoH]

What "immediate benefits" do you think will be forthcoming - other than tax increases for the next 4 years? Are you referring to the tens of thousands of jobs due to Government expansion?

I was in such a fluster, I put them in the wrong way :/ All sorts of lovely taxes and the like.