Are Bikers Without Helmets More Dangerous?

[noagname]

Are bikers who don't wear helmets statistically more likely to hurt someone else in an accident? Verses a biker who does wear a helmet?

Personally I believe in not having a helmet law and I'm wondering if people that are stupid enough not to wear a helmet. Are they also bad drivers?

 

[I like Serena]

Are bikers who don't wear helmets statistically more likely to hurt someone else in an accident? Verses a biker who does wear a helmet?

Personally I believe in not having a helmet law and I'm wondering if people that are stupid enough not to wear a helmet. Are they also bad drivers?

Just today a colleague of mine told an anecdote.
He said that if you go to San Francisco and rent a bike, they'll ask you if you want a helmet.
If you say "no", they'll say: "Dutch, aren't you?"

And I think it's true!
In the Netherlands we're practically raised on a bike.
To me it is basically ludicrous to wear a helmet on a bike.
(That is, unless you have a racing bike and go to real high speeds. )

 

[Evo]

Motorcycle riders that do not wear helmets injure themselves not others.

Even after accounting for increases in motorcycle registrations that occurred during this period, study authors noted a 32 percent increase in head injury deaths and a 42 percent increase in head injury-related hospitalizations,

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080612162240.htm

Motorcyclists that don't wear helmets are just asking for a Darwin Award.

ILS, are you thinking about bicycles?

 

[I like Serena]

ILS, are you thinking about bicycles?

Uhh. Yes. :uhh:

Motorcyclists are required to wear helmets!

I drive a motorbike myself and I don't really understand that people would drive without gloves or while wearing shorts.
At least everyone wears a helmet here! Btw, is it so obvious that a bike would be a motorcycle?
(Or is that my lack of understanding of the English language?)

 

[rhody]

I don't know a thing about motorcycles... and what are helmets used for again ?

Rhody...

 

[Evo]

Uhh. Yes. :uhh:

Motorcyclists are required to wear helmets!

I drive a motorbike myself and I don't really understand that people would drive without gloves or wearing shorts.
At least everyone wears a helmet here!


Btw, is it so obvious that a bike would be a motorcycle?
(Or is that my lack of understanding of the English language?)

Normally bikers are motorcycle riders and cyclists would be bicycle riders.

 

[Ken Natton]

I could see reason for a correlation between non-helmet-wearing bikers and increased risk to other road users. My own view, and I am in anticipation of the fact that it won’t be popular one in certain quarters, is that anyone prepared to ride a motorbike on the public road with a crash helmet is already open to questions about their ability to judge acceptable risk. Those prepared to ride a motorbike on the public road without a crash helmet either don’t care about their mortality or are unduly convinced of their immortality. Either way they present a serious risk to other road users.

 

[BobG]

Are bikers who don't wear helmets statistically more likely to hurt someone else in an accident? Verses a biker who does wear a helmet?

Personally I believe in not having a helmet law and I'm wondering if people that are stupid enough not to wear a helmet. Are they also bad drivers?

Motorcycle riders that wear helmets raise insurance rates for everyone else. Helmets prevent death due to head injuries; not prevent serious maiming of limbs. Sometimes its cheaper if they die in an accident instead of survive with a permanent injury - especially if they're single with no dependents.

There might be a slightly higher tendency for people who don't wear helmets to injure someone else, but they'd have to hit pedestrians to have any significant chance of injuring someone else. A motorcycle just isn't going to do much damage to an SUV.

And any slight tendency wouldn't be because they didn't wear a helmet. It would be because riders that don't wear helmets are a little more willing to accept risk than riders that do wear helmets and that willingness to take risks sometimes carries over to their style of riding in traffic. A mandatory helmet law really wouldn't affect that.

In fact, the main relationship between not wearing helmets and being a bad driver is that young single males happen to be more likely to do both.

 

[I like Serena]

Actually, in any accident between a car and a motorcyclist, the odds will always favour the car driver.

What can really happen to a car driver? With all the safety measures installed!
In any serious accident, the motorcyclist will likely die, while the car driver will only have a scratch on his bumper to be angry about.

Wearing a helmet or not won't really change the fact that these odds are very disproportionate.

 

[lisab]

It should be noted that in The Netherlands, the infrastructure is very accommodating towards bicycles. In fact I believe there are roads just for cyclists. In the US (and in a lot of other places), the bicycles usually have to mix right in with the cars.

It's true that in a really bad crash between a bicycle and a car, the helmet doesn't offer much protection. But most people opt to wear one anyway, if only to tip their odds just a bit!

 

[rhody]

I don't know a thing about motorcycles... and what are helmets used for again ?

Rhody...

I lied, I know a thing or two about bikes and safety gear, here are some examples of new safety devices, and of the impact technology that protect bike racers...

Dainese airbag suit for 2010

Impact Jackets

Air Bag-Like Jacket Saves Motorcyclist's Life

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18zKUlxWW08&feature=related"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFZhF7CBlGQ&feature=related"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ciycvknmLBg&feature=related"

This last video above is funny, a must see, about a local leather manufacturer, Vanson Leathers... the outfit I have rented from and possibly will buy a suit from, if I enjoy my track experience next week. I feel much safer after watching this video, I hope you learned a thing or two in the process. I did, hehe...

Rhody...

 

[Ken Natton]

Yes, okay, a couple of qualifications of the point are necessary. Absolutely, in any collision between car and motorbike it is the motorcyclist who is, by far, at the greatest risk. Of course, commonly, the accident is the fault of the car driver – it is the car driver who failed to see the motorcyclist – but it is still the motorcyclist who has suffered the worst. But it should also be recognised that the possible turn of events are not just a straightforward collision between car and motorbike. It is quite possible for a pedestrian to cause an accident from which the pedestrian emerges entirely unscathed. A motorcyclist who is careless about their own safety is most probably entirely indifferent about yours, and they absolutely can cause an accident whose consequences go way beyond those to the motorcyclist.

And absolutely, the primary imperative to wearing a crash helmet is not about risk to other road users, it is entirely about the motorcyclist. At a demographic level, the statistics from the era before compulsory helmet wearing told you that serious head injuries were very common among motorcyclists involved in accidents. Crash helmets massively reduce the risk of head injuries. That is the imperative to make the use of them compulsory. But the OP asked a question about a correlation between non-helmet wearing motorcyclists and risk to other road users. It seems to me that there is an entirely dispassionate, rational explanation for why such a correlation should exist.

 

[DaleSwanson]

I could see reason for a correlation between non-helmet-wearing bikers and increased risk to other road users. My own view, and I am in anticipation of the fact that it won’t be popular one in certain quarters, is that anyone prepared to ride a motorbike on the public road with a crash helmet is already open to questions about their ability to judge acceptable risk. Those prepared to ride a motorbike on the public road without a crash helmet either don’t care about their mortality or are unduly convinced of their immortality. Either way they present a serious risk to other road users.

Even if we accept that people who either ride a bicycle without a helmet or ride a motorcycle are more likely to take other chances that endanger other people, what would you propose the solution be? Laws that force helmet use or bar motorcycle use won't change the inherent risk taking nature of those people. In the case of barring motorcycles we'd actually make the situation worse since those people would likely switch to cars where they are more likely to injure others.

 

[siiix]

Even if we accept that people who either ride a bicycle without a helmet or ride a motorcycle are more likely to take other chances that endanger other people, what would you propose the solution be? Laws that force helmet use or bar motorcycle use won't change the inherent risk taking nature of those people. In the case of barring motorcycles we'd actually make the situation worse since those people would likely switch to cars where they are more likely to injure others.

i have a bike and the law requires me to wear a helmet , after 10 tickets now I am careful when i drive with out

to answer the original question, i can not see any possible scenario where wearing a helmet on a bike would endanger others... so the only person in danger is the driver

now then we end up being to the question: should suicidal (risk taking) behavior be legal if the only one being hurt if your self ... my opinion ABSOLUTELY YES, you risk death its your problem... although if you (or i) do not wear a helmet health insurance should NOT cover the injury !

secondary problem, your in an accident and its NOT your fault, in this case should the insurance of the other driver cover the damage to your head ?! this is a very BIG issue... my personal opinion is that NO it should not.. but i do understand that this is very controversial, because if the other driver have not caused the accident helmet or not you would not have the injury

and i think that's the main reason helmet is required, the damage to insurance companies !

i will continue NOT wearing a helmet when even i can get away with it ;)

 

[I like Serena]

I think it's safer for other road users if someone rides either type of bike without a helmet than an SUV!

Oh, and there are other people benefitting from a helmet requirement law: the parents of those young people, who'd rather see them survive!

 

[siiix]

I think it's safer for other road users if someone rides either type of bike without a helmet than an SUV!

Oh, and there are other people benefitting from a helmet requirement law: the parents of those young people, who'd rather see them survive!

what if your over 18 (or 21) or like 60 and your parents are long dead ? :)

or would you lock your partner or kids in the house so nothing in the world can happen to them.. in other words robing adults they freedom just to keep them safe FOR YOUR OWN benefit ?

i think for adults that's just wrong

 

[I like Serena]

what if your over 18 (or 21) or like 60 and your parents are long dead ? :)

or would you lock your partner or kids in the house so nothing in the world can happen to them.. in other words robing adults they freedom just to keep them safe FOR YOUR OWN benefit ?

i think for adults that's just wrong

Hmm, I seem to have hit a nerve here.

I was actually responding to Ken Natton's remark:

it is entirely about the motorcyclist.

But you seem to take it very personally, which was not intended since I was writing my post before I had seen yours.

However, this does suggest to me that you are not over 60 and that your parents aren't dead yet.

 

[Evo]

i have a bike and the law requires me to wear a helmet , after 10 tickets now I am careful when i drive with out

to answer the original question, i can not see any possible scenario where wearing a helmet on a bike would endanger others... so the only person in danger is the driver

now then we end up being to the question: should suicidal (risk taking) behavior be legal if the only one being hurt if your self ... my opinion ABSOLUTELY YES, you risk death its your problem... although if you (or i) do not wear a helmet health insurance should NOT cover the injury !

secondary problem, your in an accident and its NOT your fault, in this case should the insurance of the other driver cover the damage to your head ?! this is a very BIG issue... my personal opinion is that NO it should not.. but i do understand that this is very controversial, because if the other driver have not caused the accident helmet or not you would not have the injury

and i think that's the main reason helmet is required, the damage to insurance companies !

i will continue NOT wearing a helmet when even i can get away with it ;)

You are a potential burden to everyone. If you live in the US, you drive up our insurance costs, if you are disbaled due to your disregard for common sense, we all pay for your Social Security disabilty payments and medicare. If you die, we all pay through the nose to support your spouse and/or children. In other words, this irresposible decision on your part will be paid for by every responsible American.

 

[siiix]

You are a potential burden to everyone. If you live in the US, you drive up our insurance costs, if you are disbaled due to your disregard for common sense, we all pay for your Social Security disabilty payments and medicare. If you die, we all pay through the nose to support your spouse and/or children. In other words, this irresposible decision on your part will be paid for by every responsible American.

no need to make it an american thing this is like that in every western country

i would be GLAD to sign a waver that i do not want any help in case of my death or injury.. but i know that is not possible

in case of death i could offer my corpse for research, there for there would be no cost associated with my death

its sad that a financial problem is the cause of such restriction(s)

 

[Desafino]

Is there any literature on whether the increased use of helmets (caused by helmet laws, perhaps) decreases the availability of organs?

 

[Ken Natton]

... what would you propose the solution be?

I was proposing no solutions to anything, I was answering the OP’s question about possible correlations between non-helmet wearing motorcyclists and risk to other road users. My personal opinion is that it is entirely right that crash helmets should be compulsory for riding a motorbike on the public road. I also think that it is right that helmets are not compulsory for push-cyclists, but I still think it wise to wear one if you are going to go riding on the public road. And, as I have previously suggested, my own opinion is that driving a car on the public road operates at the very edges of acceptable risk, riding a motorbike on the public road even with a crash helmet operates well beyond the limits of acceptable risk. But it is nevertheless right that people are allowed to make that judgement for themselves. Lastly, it is my opinion that the steady toll of lives that motorcycle riding on the public roads exacts is a great shame and an unnecessary waste of human life.

 

[noagname]

I could see reason for a correlation between non-helmet-wearing bikers and increased risk to other road users. My own view, and I am in anticipation of the fact that it won’t be popular one in certain quarters, is that anyone prepared to ride a motorbike on the public road with a crash helmet is already open to questions about their ability to judge acceptable risk. Those prepared to ride a motorbike on the public road without a crash helmet either don’t care about their mortality or are unduly convinced of their immortality. Either way they present a serious risk to other road users.

I really wonder if a person that doesn’t wear a helmet actually thinks about their mortality. Does a thought like that ever cross their mind? Or did that thought only cross their mind the first few drives. An analogy could be made with smokers and how they continue to smoke even though they know what WILL happen to them.

Is there any literature on whether the increased use of helmets (caused by helmet laws, perhaps) decreases the availability of organs?

I would love to see that!
EDIT:!

Even if we accept that people who either ride a bicycle without a helmet or ride a motorcycle are more likely to take other chances that endanger other people, what would you propose the solution be? Laws that force helmet use or bar motorcycle use won't change the inherent risk taking nature of those people. In the case of barring motorcycles we'd actually make the situation worse since those people would likely switch to cars where they are more likely to injure others.

Valid point, so we need to find something bigger then the law to solve the problem. Off the top of my head I can’t think of any simple solutions. All I could say is that it would have to be a very very strong incentive. Obviously bigger then the law.

i have a bike and the law requires me to wear a helmet , after 10 tickets now I am careful when i drive with out

to answer the original question, i can not see any possible scenario where wearing a helmet on a bike would endanger others... so the only person in danger is the driver

now then we end up being to the question: should suicidal (risk taking) behavior be legal if the only one being hurt if your self ... my opinion ABSOLUTELY YES, you risk death its your problem... although if you (or i) do not wear a helmet health insurance should NOT cover the injury !

secondary problem, your in an accident and its NOT your fault, in this case should the insurance of the other driver cover the damage to your head ?! this is a very BIG issue... my personal opinion is that NO it should not.. but i do understand that this is very controversial, because if the other driver have not caused the accident helmet or not you would not have the injury

and i think that's the main reason helmet is required, the damage to insurance companies !

i will continue NOT wearing a helmet when even i can get away with it ;)

The scenario of it happening is very low, extremely unlikely, also pedestrians can be in danger. I just want to find some factual data that proves or disproves my original question. Next I want to know why don’t you wear a helmet? Clearly you are doing whatever you can to get by the Gov. but why? What do you hate about helmets or do you associate with helmets that push you away? It’s obvious your reasoning is strong and personally if I felt that strongly about something I wouldn’t do everything I can to hide from the Gov. But what is your reason.

Once again I agree that if someone wants to commit suicide they should be able to do it legally. But that’s a different discussion. A bike has the ability to hurt more then just yourself, so it should not be legal.

 

[Ken Natton]

I really wonder if a person that doesn’t wear a helmet actually thinks about their mortality. Does a thought like that ever cross their mind? Or did that thought only cross their mind the first few drives. An analogy could be made with smokers and how they continue to smoke even though they know what WILL happen to them.

Yes. I wasn’t really suggesting that people who ride motorbikes without crash helmets generally sit there, pondering their mortality before deciding to engage in that behaviour. I was really saying the same thing as you but just using much more pretentious phraseology. They key point was how their general outlook on life might lead to them being an increased risk to other road users.