Proving Lagrangian L is Not Uniquely Defined

  • Thread starter Grand
  • Start date
  • Tags
    Lagrangian
In summary, the conversation discusses the attempt to prove the non-uniqueness of the Lagrangian L, which is only defined up to a time derivative of a function. The Euler-Lagrange equations are used to show this, but the resulting equations do not match the expected form. The conversation ends with a question about calculating the total time derivative of a function.
  • #1
Grand
76
0

Homework Statement


I am trying to prove that Lagrangian L is not uniquely defined, but only up to a time derivative of a function:
[tex]\frac{d\Lambda}{dt}, \Lambda(\vec{q}, t)[/tex]

So

[tex] L > L+\frac{d\Lambda}{dt} = L+\frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial q}~\dot{q}+\frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial t}[/tex]

But when I put it in the E-L eqns they definitely aren't as before.

Where have I gone wrong?

Homework Equations


The Attempt at a Solution

 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #2


Show us what you got when you tried to crank out the Euler-Lagrange equations.
 
  • #3


Alright:

[tex]\frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{q}}=\frac{\partial L}{\partial q}[/tex]

[tex]\frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial}{\partial \dot{q}}(L+\frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial q}~\dot{q}+\frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial t})=\frac{\partial}{\partial q}(L+\frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial q}~\dot{q}+\frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial t})[/tex]

[tex]\frac{d}{dt}(\frac{\partial L}{\partial q}+\frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial q})=\frac{\partial L}{\partial q}+\frac{\partial^2 \Lambda}{\partial q^2}~\dot{q}+\frac{\partial^2 \Lambda}{\partial q \partial t}[/tex]
 
  • #4


Now calculate what

[tex]\frac{d}{dt}\left(\frac{\partial \Lambda}{\partial q}(q,t)\right)[/tex]

is equal to.

(Do you only have one coordinate, or should you have qi's?)
 
  • #5


Well I can't, so I am asking for help.
 
  • #6


Don't be intimidated by the notation. The partial of Λ with respect to q is just another function of q and t. You find the total time derivative of it the same way you found the total time derivative of Λ(q,t).
 
  • #7


I see. Thank you a lot.
 

1. What is the definition of Lagrangian?

Lagrangian is a mathematical function that represents the energy of a system in classical mechanics. It is defined as the difference between the kinetic and potential energies of the system.

2. Why is it important to prove that Lagrangian is not uniquely defined?

Proving that Lagrangian is not uniquely defined helps to understand the limitations of classical mechanics and provides insights into the fundamental principles of physics.

3. How is Lagrangian not uniquely defined?

Lagrangian can have multiple forms or expressions that can describe the same physical system. This means that different Lagrangians can produce the same equations of motion, making it not uniquely defined.

4. What are some examples of non-uniquely defined Lagrangians?

Some examples include non-conservative forces, such as friction or air resistance, which can lead to different forms of Lagrangian for the same system. Another example is when there are constraints on the system, which can also result in different Lagrangians.

5. How is the non-uniqueness of Lagrangian resolved in physics?

In physics, the non-uniqueness of Lagrangian is resolved by choosing the most physically relevant form of Lagrangian that can accurately describe the system's dynamics. This is often achieved through experimental observations and theoretical considerations.

Similar threads

Replies
8
Views
216
  • Introductory Physics Homework Help
Replies
15
Views
273
  • Introductory Physics Homework Help
Replies
11
Views
838
  • Introductory Physics Homework Help
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • Classical Physics
Replies
1
Views
577
  • Introductory Physics Homework Help
Replies
1
Views
820
  • Introductory Physics Homework Help
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • Introductory Physics Homework Help
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • Introductory Physics Homework Help
Replies
9
Views
1K
  • Introductory Physics Homework Help
Replies
13
Views
2K
Back
Top