Written off Roswell some years ag

[Ivan Seeking]

I had nearly written off Roswell some years ago. In the last couple of years, some evidence has come to light that gets my interest a little. Here is one item for your consideration.

Please see this handwritten entry by Hoover; page 45 of pdf#1 in the FBI UFO files.
http://foia.fbi.gov/ufo.htm

July 15th, 1947; responding to the urging of others for the FBI to stay out of the UFO business, Hoover writes the following:

I would do it but before agreeing to it we must insist upon full access to discs recovered. For instance in the [unreadable] case the army grabbed it and would not let us have it for cursory examination

Note that this is 7 days after the weather balloon story was released by the military. Comments?

 

[FZ+]

Hmm... it depends on what was the nature of the "discs" recovered. The current, most likely story was that the object was an observation balloon used to measure yields from Soviet missile tests. This may just be the FBI wanting access to the data discs recovered from the balloon.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by FZ+
Hmm... it depends on what was the nature of the "discs" recovered. The current, most likely story was that the object was an observation balloon used to measure yields from Soviet missile tests. This may just be the FBI wanting access to the data discs recovered from the balloon.

Darn. I made an edit and accidentally deleted a few comments.

First, I don't think we had data discs in 1947. Do you have anything specific in mind or do you only mean to allude to the possible interpretations of the word "disc".

Perhaps he meant photographic disc of some sort?

Why wouldn't Hoover simply want access to the data?

Next, why would the FBI be involved in a cold war spy projects? This project should not have even been in the FBI's domain.

I find this remark [Hoover's] very suspicious in light of the other claims around this alleged event; considering the timing.

Any other ideas? I might argue the point but all suggestions are appreciated.

Another interesting little tid-bit that I have picked up on Roswell:
The government’s response to the UFO claim is that it was the Project MOGUL equipment that was shipped to Wright Patterson AFB on July 8th; not a UFO and dead aliens as is claimed. Next, we find investigations that show that according to all of the daily logs, nothing unusual happened at Roswell on July 7th and 8th - no dramatic changes in the operations, no abrupt change in personnel or normal activities, all aspects of these several days indicate that nothing unusual had taken place. Only a little excitement over the initial misinterpretation of the recovered MOGUL items.

There are also no records of the equipment being shipped to Wright Patterson AFB as is claimed in the governments own report
Did we miss something boys? It does make one wonder a bit.

Finally [though not the end of the story], many of the official documents relating to Roswell were destroyed illegally; this according to the General Accounting Office report found in the Napster.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Note significant edits and additions to the post above. I should have just made another post.

I neglected to address the entire document. For the proper context this seems necessary.

In the first part of this document, we find an internal memo for Mr. Ladd:

[blacked out] also discussed this matter with [blacked out] of [blacked out] indicated that it was his attitude that inasmuch as it has been established that the flying disks are not the result of any Army or Navy experiments, the matter is of interest to the FBI. He stated that he was of the opinion that the Bureau, if at all possible, should accede to General Schulgen’s request.

Then we have and addendum from DML.

I would recommend that we advise the Army that the Bureau does not believe it should go into these investigations, it being noted that a great bulk of those alleged discs reported found have been pranks. It is not believed that the Bureau would accomplish anything by going into these investigations.

An additional notation is made by EUT [it appears]

I think we should do this. 7/15

Then we have the quote from Hoover

I would do it but before agreeing to it we must insist upon full access to discs recovered. For instance in the [unreadable] case the army grabbed it and would not let us have it for cursory examination

 

[selfAdjoint]

Data discs. Some radiosondes (weather balloons) had a data system in which an audio signal from a driven tuning fork was modulated by input from a sensor and the record was made on low quality small plastic records. No kidding! So discs could have been data in that pre computer age.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Ivan,

I could not get into the FBI files
to see the Hoover note. Any chance
you could grab the image and post it here?

-Zoob

Post Script: It is very easy to
find images of the front page
of the paper reporting capture of
the disc. I could not, however,
find images of the recant (bal-
loon) story. Gotta link?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Sorry I was editing late again. Please see the edits to the last post.

Zooby, I will be back with something later.

Also FZ+, these data discs would seem to count as a possiblity then.

Thanks selfAdjoint. Do you have any links on this?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
Ivan,

I could not get into the FBI files
to see the Hoover note. Any chance
you could grab the image and post it here?

-Zoob

Post Script: It is very easy to
find images of the front page
of the paper reporting capture of
the disc. I could not, however,
find images of the recant (bal-
loon) story. Gotta link?

I can't link the pic directly because we don't have a page by page address to use. This file requires Adobe Reader. Perhaps this is the problem; do you have adobe? I have been using the link myself today so it should be working.

Can I paste an image to the page? I don't know how.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Ivan,

No Adobe. WebTv = modem + keyboard.Zantra did it with his Highlander
animated graphic, so he will know
how to do it.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
Ivan,

No Adobe. WebTv = modem + keyboard.


Zantra did it with his Highlander
animated graphic, so he will know
how to do it.

I'm not so sure. That works a little differently I think. Anyway, I copied the entire text from the page referenced. If I can copy jpg's or gif's, or better yet bmp files onto the page, I will do so when appropriate.

Zantra?

Hey, I want to make my alien blink every now and then. Can someone help me do this?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Ivan,

Copying pictures is not hard if
you have a real PC. Once you
copy it into your PC's storage
you come back here and put it in
where it says attach file.

I can't get into anything that is
adobe or java, myself, but I
can copy an image and get it
back to paste into my own webpage
if I want.I'm SURE you can do it.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
Ivan,

Copying pictures is not hard if
you have a real PC. Once you
copy it into your PC's storage
you come back here and put it in
where it says attach file.

I can't get into anything that is
adobe or java, myself, but I
can copy an image and get it
back to paste into my own webpage
if I want.I'm SURE you can do it.

For some reason it does not like my converted file...as nearly as I can tell. I am copying the pdf page into paint and then saving the file as a jpg. I then resize the image to the posting limit. In the end I had a 85K file; < 600 x 800 in dimensions, but I keep getting an overlimit rejection stating the the image must be less than 800 by 600. Anyone know what's wrong?

I have to get back to work. I will try more later.

 

[Zantra]

Well I'm assuming you did the insert image command. All I can suggest is shrink it just a little more to fit it in.

As for my highlander, it's just a direct link to another website where the image is posted using the IMG tag. As for the blinking alien, you have to find a blinking alien that will be small enough to upload as a custom avatar. You can do rhis wirh gif editing software. personally I didn't want to take it to that level;) I couldn't do it, so I just made it my sig.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Ivan,

You're saying 600x800 then
800x600 so it seems to be a matter of which is height and
width. If you make sure none of
the dimensions in your image is
greater than 600 it may go.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
Ivan,

You're saying 600x800 then
800x600 so it seems to be a matter of which is height and
width. If you make sure none of
the dimensions in your image is
greater than 600 it may go.

Alas, , this was just a misstatement. The problem seems to lie with the converted file. I can't just link the original because it is 65 pages in length. I got a little buried with real work but I will get this working later. I have been meaning to do this anyway.

Alas,
Ivan

 

[selfAdjoint]

Ivan, I have no links on the radiosonde info, it's just my memory from long ago weather classes.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

OK Zooby the problem is resolved. Here is the page discussed. I will post the significant pages when appropriate in the future.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I am posting to update this thread. Zooby, did you see that the attachment finally made it?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Originally posted by Ivan Seeking
I am posting to update this thread. Zooby, did you see that the attachment finally made it?

I printed out the Hoover note and am surprised to find that what
you transcribed as "(unreadable)"
looks like it says "La." or
maybe "Sa."

I had assumed the unreadable
word was "likely" or something
to that effect: "For instance
in the likely case the Army
grabbed it + wouldn't let us have
it for cursory examination."

Instead it is clear he is refering
to something that already took
place: The "La. Case" (Louisiana?)

This is tantalyzing but the type-
written addendum above it recco-
mends ignoring the matter since
"the great bulk" of the discs
have been pranks. The fact the
Army wouldn't let Hoover see it
can easily be explained as
territorial squabbling and says
nothing about the authenticity
of the "La." disc or the Roswell
incident.

-zoob

 

[Zantra]

SA is an abbreviation oft times used in place of "special Agent" or sometimes sargent. Thus,

had assumed the unreadable
word was "likely" or something
to that effect: "For instance
in the likely case the Army
grabbed it SA(special agent, sargent) smith wouldn't let us have
it for cursory examination."

I've noted SA used to abbreviate special agent in other FOIA docs, but as he's referring to the army, I tend to think in army rank terms. But then I'm not ex mil, so maybe there are special agent designations in the army- *shrug*. It would also explain why it s blacked out- no specific names mentioned, etc.

 

[zoobyshoe]

No, Zantra, you're mixed up about
where the "(unreadable)" goes.
The plus sign is what Hoover wrote
as shorthand for the word "and".
"La." or "Sa." go where I thought
the word "likely" would be.

Check out the attachment Ivan posted.

-Zooby

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
I printed out the Hoover note and am surprised to find that what
you transcribed as "(unreadable)"
looks like it says "La." or
maybe "Sa."

I had assumed the unreadable
word was "likely" or something
to that effect: "For instance
in the likely case the Army
grabbed it + wouldn't let us have
it for cursory examination."

I just didn't want to quote unless I was sure of the proper reading.

Instead it is clear he is refering
to something that already took
place: The "La. Case" (Louisiana?)

This is tantalyzing but the type-
written addendum above it recco-
mends ignoring the matter since
"the great bulk" of the discs
have been pranks. The fact the
Army wouldn't let Hoover see it
can easily be explained as
territorial squabbling and says
nothing about the authenticity
of the "La." disc or the Roswell
incident.

-zoob

I have been trying to ascertain the significance of this memo. First, consider the facts established.

" inasmuch as it has been established that the flying disks are not the result of any Army or Navy experiments"

"a great bulk of those alleged discs reported found have been pranks"

First, a review of the 1400 FBI documents linked reveals a great deal of activity in the FBI regarding these “flying disks”. This interest continues long after these initial documents; at least until Aug of ’53. Many reports were classified; so for some reason the FBI sees this as a matter as significance.

Secondly, we have the hoaxes. The FBI was well aware of hoaxed “flying disks” as early as July 10th of ’47. These were mostly childlike pranks. For example, one disk recovered was made of a Gulf Oil sign; another was made from circular saw blades. Why would the head of the FBI want access to some 12 year old boy’s Saturday project? These are obviously matters best left to the local police.

Next, it would appear that those disks not deemed as pranks “are not the result of any Army or Navy experiments". From this it would seem that the only category left to hold Hoover’s interest are the non-military, non-prank disks. This is one point that recaptures my interest a bit. Why the continuing interest in children’s pranks? Also, as far as access to the disks, who is preventing the FBI from having access – local police departments? I doubt it. Also, the military [General Schulgen] requested that the FBI stay out of this business. Does this indicate that the matter is trivial? All things considered, the trivial explanations grow very thin. If this was 1947, I would assume that these things are the work of the dreaded Russians.

I am not arguing that this is proof of anything. We are talking about reasonable interpretations of the actions of high ranking people. How do you explain this given the context? This all seems very odd to me at best.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Hoover, because of his prying
nature, would be eager to access
anything he felt the Army didn't
want to grant him access to.

The Army, being territorial,
wouldn't want to grant him access
to anything unless they absolutely
had to.

What I'm saying is that the Army
would be telling him to mind his
own business even if all they were
keeping from him was a hangar full
of Gulf signs and circular saws.

Hoover was universally disliked
and disrusted because he used info
collected by his G-men about
people's personal lives to pres-
sure them into various behaviours.

Hoover's primary goal in collect-
ing any information was to in-
crease his power base. This was
well known in government circles
and, since the Army had developed
its own case of paranoid secrecy
during and after the development
of the bomb, they would be doubly
resistent to giving him any access
to any info, even how much money
was budgeted for toilet paper.

"...inasmuch as it has been established that the flying disks
ar not the result of any Army or
Navy experiments..."

This must refer to reports of
disks actually observed flying.
It cannot refer to any recovered
craft since the FBI hasn't been
given access to any, and can't
have acertained anything. The
above statement would be the
result of having spoken to the
Army and Navy and having been
convincingly assured these flying
disks were not ours.

A hoax perpetrated by the Rus-
sians? I think this is exactly the
tye of psychological weirdness
that would have appealed to Stalin
and the Russian Psyche in general.

-zoob

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
Hoover, because of his prying
nature, would be eager to access
anything he felt the Army didn't
want to grant him access to.

The Army, being territorial,
wouldn't want to grant him access
to anything unless they absolutely
had to.

What I'm saying is that the Army
would be telling him to mind his
own business even if all they were
keeping from him was a hangar full
of Gulf signs and circular saws.

Typically the hoaxes - all that I have seen in the FBI files - were retrieved by local police or fire deparments. They were then held if and until the FBI field agent arrived. So I don't think the hoaxes connect to the military...at least I have seen no evidence of this until the official investigations surface as Projects Bluebook, Grudge, and Sign. Why would the military be interested when they know the whole things was started by false rumors caused by a crashed ballon?

Hoover was universally disliked
and disrusted because he used info
collected by his G-men about
people's personal lives to pres-
sure them into various behaviours.

Hoover's primary goal in collect-
ing any information was to in-
crease his power base. This was
well known in government circles
and, since the Army had developed
its own case of paranoid secrecy
during and after the development
of the bomb, they would be doubly
resistent to giving him any access
to any info, even how much money
was budgeted for toilet paper.

"...inasmuch as it has been established that the flying disks
ar not the result of any Army or
Navy experiments..."

This must refer to reports of
disks actually observed flying.
It cannot refer to any recovered
craft since the FBI hasn't been
given access to any, and can't
have acertained anything. The
above statement would be the
result of having spoken to the
Army and Navy and having been
convincingly assured these flying
disks were not ours.

A hoax perpetrated by the Rus-
sians? I think this is exactly the
tye of psychological weirdness
that would have appealed to Stalin
and the Russian Psyche in general.

-zoob

But you seem to ignore that this one week after Roswell. Let's see...the FBI was assured that no disk ever crashed. However, a memo is found from July 8th indicating that the Army claims that the recovered disk at Roswell was eight sided and tethered to a balloon by a cable. The memo further states that this does not agree with statements made by the office at the Roswell Army airfield. Perhaps this is the disk referenced? This however does not jive with the radar reflector story release on July 8th. Anyway, now you’ve gone and done it. I guess I’m going to have to dig into these files again and really try to nail down these details. This is starting to bug me.

Also, as far as the Russian idea, there are a couple of interesting reports from Northern Africa, from the 50's I think [I am not sure about the details here], from field CIA agents [in the CIA files linked in the Napster] regarding crashed mechanical flying saucers that were found - the earthly kind. These things had engines and were of unknown origins. As reported, they also had some kind of electronics – vacuum tubes for example. It also seems that some of the parts had Russian writing on them. These reports are obscure and otherwise unsupported but they do exist.

 

[zoobyshoe]

The memo about the eight sided
disc tethered to a weather bal-
loon is news to me. This would
make it terrestrial and more
likely than not Russian, since
the Army hid it away so quickly.

1947 was, I believe, the year the
Russians built a copy of the B-29
long range bomber. This would
have enabled them to reach most
of the US from across the Bering
Straits. They could have deployed
these balloons with discs. Maybe
the discs were full of sensors for
spying or maybe the balloons were
supposed to release them so they
would crash and start rumors of
an invasion from outer space. Hard
to say.

The thought that bothers me is,
if it was an attempt to generate
terror they might well have put
some genetically messed up family
on board the one that crashed at
Roswell to pass as aliens.

I have always thought the alien
in the alien autopsy looked like
some kind of deformed person,
rather than an out and out Craig
Reardon special effects thing.
If you ever saw the movie Freaks you'll know how
bizarre people can turn out.

-Zooby

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
The memo about the eight sided
disc tethered to a weather bal-
loon is news to me. This would
make it terrestrial and more
likely than not Russian, since
the Army hid it away so quickly.

I had seen this memo before but had nearly forgotten about it since it conflicts with both sides of the story. On my first reading of this [years ago] I asssumed that this was probably an early cover story; since this also does not agree with the original Army reports. I don't know what to think of this...

1947 was, I believe, the year the
Russians built a copy of the B-29
long range bomber. This would
have enabled them to reach most
of the US from across the Bering
Straits. They could have deployed
these balloons with discs. Maybe
the discs were full of sensors for
spying or maybe the balloons were
supposed to release them so they
would crash and start rumors of
an invasion from outer space. Hard
to say.

The thought that bothers me is,
if it was an attempt to generate
terror they might well have put
some genetically messed up family
on board the one that crashed at
Roswell to pass as aliens.

I have always thought the alien
in the alien autopsy looked like
some kind of deformed person,
rather than an out and out Craig
Reardon special effects thing.
If you ever saw the movie Freaks you'll know how
bizarre people can turn out.

-Zooby

The official explanationS for the bodies are of course the test dummies - not used until 5 years later - and the victim of a high altitude parachute jump gone wrong. There was a test pilot who jumped from something like 100,000 feet. His head was said to be double its normal size due to an injury. I need to check my facts on this one thought since I am not sure of the date.

 

[zoobyshoe]

The short dummies were actually
dropped almost 10 years later.
The guy with the swollen head was
also a lot later.

It is true that people's memories
can get really mixed up and lump
things together. However the
stories of the dead alien bodies
and the one who didn't die could
be accounted for by a hoax per-
petrated by the Russian Govmnt
with all the means they had at
their disposal.

If what you say about the north
African discs is true this becomes
a greater possibility. It is also
something the US government may
not have cleared up to this day.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

More to come. I have discovered quite a few interesting facts.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Hoover doc debunked!

I would do it but before agreeing to it we must insist upon full access to discs recovered. For instance in the [unreadable] case the army grabbed it and would not let us have it for cursory examination

---- EJ Hoover

Back when this thread was active I was doing some research on this statement. I will cite the specific docs later if needed [I accidentally deleted my research notes], but for now suffice it to say that all information can be found in pdf’s 1 and 2 in the FBI, UFO files.

I am now convinced that Zooby is right: In the memo cited, it is clear that Hoover was asking for access to the phony disks recovered. Another memo references this statement by Hoover and makes clear that the other case referenced that was not clear, the La case, is in fact the Louisiana case. In this case a prank saucer was found and the FBI had record of it.

Note that this quote is cited in virtually all of the current Roswell literature, but you heard it debunked here first. Thanks for the prodding Zooby!

Next, there is another interesting part to this story. In the past I have never studied the crank saucer stories because I was not interested in the hoaxes. A careful reading of these events is really quite striking. In addition to some cheesy hoaxes, there were also quite a number of well crafted saucers, about 24” in diameter, coming down all around the country. On a number of occasions the professional appearance of the retrieved objects was noted and the descriptions of these craft are very similar. Usually they contain some simple electronics with at least one vacuum tube. The most interesting part is that they had no means of propulsion. They were either being dropped or flung. Many contained rags soaked with turpentine or some other source of fire. A number either caused fires – such as the one in Van Nuys, Ca.- or they landed in peoples yards or in the street in flames. At least one had USSR painted inside of the saucer.

After some consideration of the FBI docs, one begins to wonder who but the US military could have been the source of these phony saucers. I don’t mean to start another conspiracy theory, but the FBI reports are quite striking. Perhaps this is why Hoover was interested in phony saucers?

This was just my impression. This is not an assertion.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Fascinating!

I look forward to seeing a photo of the clarifying memo. (Remember: I cannot access pdf, adobe, java)

Was the USSR found painted inside one of the saucers in English or Cyrillic script (CCCP)? Makes a huge difference.

-Zooby

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
Fascinating!

I look forward to seeing a photo of the clarifying memo. (Remember: I cannot access pdf, adobe, java)

Was the USSR found painted inside one of the saucers in English or Cyrillic script (CCCP)? Makes a huge difference.

-Zooby

I will try to post these later tonight if I have time; the reading of these memos is slow and tedious. I didn't spot the appropriate memos on the first [quick] pass.

The letters indicated were USSR.

What strikes me first are two possibilities: First, perhaps there was a toy of some kind being used. This seems unlikely since the flying saucer idea was only one month old [June of '47 - Kevin Arnold] when this started in July. Next, if it was a toy flung by kids then somewhere in the FBI files this should be indicated. It will take me some weeks to read all of the files. For now, I doubt this was something found on store shelves. The professional and consistent appearance of many of these saucers would then seem to rule out kids or even drunken goodtimers as hoaxers.

Next, it could have been the Soviets or some other enemy of the US at the time trying to create panic. Since radar was being used, I don't see US airspace regularly being invaded by Russian aircraft. I guess they could have been dropped from a high altitude spy plane [Soviet equivalent of the U2?]. Another possibility is that operatives on the ground were flinging these things. Also, they could have been dropped from balloons; perhaps the electronics were a timing device. In the reading I have done so far, the purpose of the circuitry has not been discussed.

Then of course we have the possibility that the military was doing this. What comes to mind for me is the "Red Scare" and the beginning of the cold war just a few years later. Also, true believers might argue that this was done to discredit the genuine saucer stories...and without more information we might speculate endlessly. Nonetheless, these are the only possibilities that I have managed thus far.

Any other ideas?

 

[zoobyshoe]

I don't know if you grew up in snow country, but when I was a kid there was a universally used thing that was made of aluminum, about three feet in diameter, round and dished. You sat in it and slid down snowy hills. There were two leather handles at the edges 180 degrees apart to hold on. The edge was curled over to form a lip. If you took the handles off and put two together like a clamshell, you'd have a very professional looking lenticular disc. Eventually they started making them out of plastic. (The plastic ones sucked.) I haven't the vaguest idea when these things came on the market. When WWII ended it freed up all the aluminum, though, so it could have been as early as '47. They were certainly on the market by '57.

So you are saying the USSR was in English letters?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Originally posted by zoobyshoe
I don't know if you grew up in snow country, but when I was a kid there was a universally used thing that was made of aluminum, about three feet in diameter, round and dished. You sat in it and slid down snowy hills. There were two leather handles at the edges 180 degrees apart to hold on. The edge was curled over to form a lip. If you took the handles off and put two together like a clamshell, you'd have a very professional looking lenticular disc. Eventually they started making them out of plastic. (The plastic ones sucked.) I haven't the vaguest idea when these things came on the market. When WWII ended it freed up all the aluminum, though, so it could have been as early as '47. They were certainly on the market by '57.

So you are saying the USSR was in English letters?

I remember these. The specific details from the FBI reports should help a little here; I don't remember the exact diameter of these saucers.

As I recall, and I will check on this when I review the docs again, the FBI agents words were "the inside was painted white...with the letters USSR painted in red".

I will find the exact quote...

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I don't know how much Greg will let me get away with here. I will try posting the first two pertinent docs. I have another one about a CIA agent killed in an airplane crash; the local papers reported that the plane was carrying recovered flying saucers. see p29/69 of the pdf.

Also, the letters USSR were painted in white in one report. I am quite sure at least one other mentions these letters in red.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Here is the next doc. These may take some time to appear...if they ever do. Zooby, I am sending you a PM. Please check your inbox.

For those with Adobe, please see the FBI pdf file; pp 29,36,38, and 57.

http://foia.fbi.gov/ufo/ufo1.pdf

Here is the definitive doc the shows clear knowledge that the La case is a phony.
See p 4 of 79
http://foia.fbi.gov/ufo/ufo2.pdf