Anyone considering a career as a patent attorney?

In summary: Chemical engineering is a great major for patent attorneys. It covers a lot of the bases, including bio/chemical engineering, but it is not limited to those areas. You will find that you work on a variety of patents, not just electronics or biotech products.
  • #246
lilymarie said:
Thank you so much for taking your time to answer all of these questions and inquiries on patent law.

I am a high school student who is looking into colleges, and have been doing research into possible majors and post-graduation jobs to give me more insight into which schools would best fit my particular interests. I am having trouble deciding whether to pursue biology, which is my favorite subject and one I am extremely interested in, and law- which I also find intriguing and seems to offer more job opportunities post-graduation. I stumbled upon patent law when researching the different paths one can take as a lawyer, and it seems like the perfect combination of my interests.

I do not have a problem with getting an advanced degree in biology or microbiology, I am just uncertain as to what jobs will be available to me, and whether the salaries would make up for the large tuition expenses. I also am not particularly interested in lab work, so a technician in a research facility does not sound like my dream occupation. From what I have read on this forum and other sites, patent law is much better suited to my talents and interests.

My biggest fear regarding pursuing this particular career is the amount of debt I will accumulate during schooling, and if it will make fiscal sense for me to dedicate so much time into earning a degree that will make it difficult to pay back student loans. I am a good student (high GPA, multiple AP classes, high SAT scores, seated first in my senior class) and have been recently looking into Columbia University, which, as an Ivy League, is very expensive. My parents would not be able to pay the tuition, so I will have to take out loans and rely on financial aid to pay for my schooling.

What I really want to know is: what is the lowest advanced degree necessary to still have a chance of getting a good job as a patent attorney (do I need a PhD or will a masters suffice), and should I look into a different career if I want to make a relatively high salary without struggling financially after so many years of college? I want to pursue a career that interests me, and biology patent law is my first choice so far, but salary is also a big deal to me when making decisions that dictate my future. Would attending a prestigious yet expensive university make sense because it would make me look more attractive to potential employers, or should I look into going to a less expensive state school? Thank you so much for taking the time to read this, your insight will be invaluable to me in my search to find the college and career path that is right for me.

The debt is to be taken seriously. That said, if it's what you want to do, it can be worth it. You just don't want to go in blindly, not knowing the costs and how that'll affect your life once you graduate. There is the potential to make big bucks (and also even a nice salary) in patent law, it's just not guaranteed. You need to work hard (both in school and also to find a job afterwards with networking, informal interviews, smart personalized cover letters, etc.) and have a background for which there is demand for patent attorneys.

If you go into biology, you will at least need a MS (it's just the way bio goes as you can read more about in prior posts in this thread). Have you considered biomedical engineering for your minor? A BS in BME is probably sufficient to land your first job and will give you some flexibility to work on the bio side and the mechanical engineering side, depending on where opportunities lie. Employers tend to like "engineers," even if a physicist, chemist and biologist took most of the same classes. Don't ask me why.

Also, forgive me for assuming but if you are a woman, it may be easier to obtain scholarships if you are in an engineering program because there is a disproportionate number of women in the field.

Hope that helps!
 
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  • #247
Hi, I have a Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering and I am interested in becoming a patent agent. Can you recommend the best online course or a book to help me prepare for the Patent bar exam?
 
  • #248
GeorgeTannous said:
Hi, I have a Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering and I am interested in becoming a patent agent. Can you recommend the best online course or a book to help me prepare for the Patent bar exam?
Sorry, I can't help you there as I took the patent bar a decade ago. All I know is is the extensive undergrad-esque programs are unnecessarily time intensive and expensive.
 
  • #249
berned_you said:
The debt is to be taken seriously. That said, if it's what you want to do, it can be worth it. You just don't want to go in blindly, not knowing the costs and how that'll affect your life once you graduate. There is the potential to make big bucks (and also even a nice salary) in patent law, it's just not guaranteed. You need to work hard (both in school and also to find a job afterwards with networking, informal interviews, smart personalized cover letters, etc.) and have a background for which there is demand for patent attorneys.

If you go into biology, you will at least need a MS (it's just the way bio goes as you can read more about in prior posts in this thread). Have you considered biomedical engineering for your minor? A BS in BME is probably sufficient to land your first job and will give you some flexibility to work on the bio side and the mechanical engineering side, depending on where opportunities lie. Employers tend to like "engineers," even if a physicist, chemist and biologist took most of the same classes. Don't ask me why.

Also, forgive me for assuming but if you are a woman, it may be easier to obtain scholarships if you are in an engineering program because there is a disproportionate number of women in the field.

Hope that helps!
Thank you for your insight and advice. I will definitely look into BME, especially if it increases my chances of finding a job out of college. I am a woman, so it is encouraging to know that there will be scholarships available to me if I choose this career path. This forum really helped me a lot!
 
  • #250
Hello. I'm currently practicing as an attorney with a firm and I do not have a science background. I am considering taking classes in the listed categories to become eligible to sit for the patent bar, for example the 24 hours in physics. What is your opinion on this route, and do you know others who also have taken this path? This is strictly for lateraling or opening new doors. Thank you for your time.
 
  • #251
I have a thesis Masters in Pharmacology (4 publications) with 2 years of industry experience ( Pfizer ). I am planning to get a JD degree. I read everywhere that a phd is needed for practicing as patent attorney in biolofy field. Would I be marketable without a phd, considering my background?
 
  • #252
What is the outlook as a science advisor or patent agent for a physics masters degree graduate with several years professional experience? Is it grim?
How do you recommend I go about getting my foot in the door in patent law?
Are billable hours counted as a science advisor?

Thank you!
 
  • #253
thehiddenphysicist said:
What is the outlook as a science advisor or patent agent for a physics masters degree graduate with several years professional experience? Is it grim?
How do you recommend I go about getting my foot in the door in patent law?
Are billable hours counted as a science advisor?

Thank you!
1) Probably not very high in demand but check your local job boards and postings. Scientific advisers are most common in super high tech areas (advanced EE, advanced chemistry, pharma), not sure if general physics would fall into that territory but it depends on your area of expertise. It's not that common of a position to be honest but does exist in places where there is a need. It's a hard career to directly pursue because the need is so specialized. I think most scientific advisers that work in the patent field "fell into" their job based on scenarios difficult to replicate.
2) Apply for a job as an Examiner with the USPTO
3) If you work at a law firm, yes. If you work at a company, no.
 
  • #254
thehiddenphysicist said:
What is the outlook as a science advisor or patent agent for a physics masters degree graduate with several years professional experience? Is it grim?
How do you recommend I go about getting my foot in the door in patent law?
Are billable hours counted as a science advisor?

Thank you!
I’m a PhD physicist who first worked in industrial R&D for 20+ yrs and then worked as a patent agent in a law firm for 8+ yrs.

(a) If you are looking for a position in a law firm, the term “scientific advisor” is not commonly used. If you are doing a keyword search for job posts, “technical specialist” is most common; alternatively, “technical advisor”, “technology specialist”, or “technology advisor”. I’ll use the term “technical specialist”.

(b) An “MS Physics with several years professional experience” does not by itself place you in a strong position for an entry-level technical specialist position in a law firm. A PhD Physics, better yet a PhD Physics with 5+ yrs industry experience, places you in a much stronger position.

(c) With niche exceptions (discussed below), a physics degree is somewhat borderline for law firms. Strongest demand right now is for EE, CS, and CE (life sciences have different requirements that I won’t address here). Most posts will be adamant that a degree in EE, CS, or CE is required (and HR will screen your resume for one of these degrees; if they don’t see it listed, they will simply chuck your resume). A few will say that a degree in physics with a strong background in EE or computers will also be considered.

(d) Again, with exceptions, technical specialists primarily have PhDs. In order to become a patent agent or patent attorney, you must have at least a bachelor’s degree in a science or engineering major recognized by the USPTO (or equivalent training). A master’s degree doesn’t give you much distinction over what the run-of-the-mill patent agent or patent attorney can tackle from a technical perspective. But, if the inventor is a PhD doing complex R&D, the run-of-the-mill patent agent or patent attorney can be totally befuddled by the technology; hence the need for PhD technical specialists. Especially if a firm has as clients R&D labs led by PhD scientists and engineers, having PhD technical specialists on roll can be a big plus.

(e) There are niches for physicists. For example, if you’re a geophysicist, and the firm has clients in oil exploration or earthquake detection, you’ve a shot. If you’re a radiation physicist, and the firm has clients in medical imaging, you’ve a shot. If you’re a semiconductor physicist, and the firm has clients in semiconductor devices or fabrication, you’ve a shot.

(f) At one time, many large corporations in the US had extensive in-house patent departments. The practice (which tends to oscillate) has been heavily towards downsizing in-house patent departments and outsourcing the work to law firms. Some of the in-house patent attorneys who were downsized started small firms of their own specializing in their previous specialties; often with their previous employers now as clients.

(g) So, for you, a lot depends on how many years and in what specialty “several years of professional experience” refers to. As usual, it’s a matter of supply and demand. You’re competing against freshly minted PhDs who want to switch careers for whatever reason and also competing against experienced PhDs who have been downsized and are looking for a career alternative.

(h) Did you work for a large company that had an internal patent department? If so, ask the patent attorneys there for referrals to potential openings among their buddies. Some personal connection is your best bet.

(i) Passing the patent bar, and looking for a position as a patent agent, probably would not improve your opportunities much. Training a newbie from scratch costs a lot of time and money for a firm, so you need to have something special to offer (or a special personal connection to someone who's willing to give you a break).

<<Edit to add>>

(j) Are you fluent in a foreign language? There are US firms that focus on US applications for foreign clients. I know a PhD physicist who got his foot in the door as a patent agent because he's fluent in German; he got a job with a US firm that has a lot of German clients. Similarly, another guy who's fluent in Japanese got a job with a firm that has a lot of Japanese clients. Don't overlook this avenue.
 
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  • #255
I graduated last spring with a bachelors in plastics engineering technology. I am taking the year off to work full time at a medical device manufacture, and to study for the LSAT. I am wondering if I will run into any issues trying to resister for the patent bar exam with an engineering technologies degree. Will I have to file under category B, option 4 when applying?
 
  • #256
Lstep31 said:
I graduated last spring with a bachelors in plastics engineering technology. I am taking the year off to work full time at a medical device manufacture, and to study for the LSAT. I am wondering if I will run into any issues trying to resister for the patent bar exam with an engineering technologies degree. Will I have to file under category B, option 4 when applying?

Neither "plastics engineering technology" or "engineering technology" is listed as a Cat A degree in the OED GRB. If you qualify under Cat B, Option 4, then that would be the most expedient path.
 
  • #257
Have you ever heard of anyone having difficulties applying to the patent bar exam with an engineering technologies degree when compared to a straight engineering degree?
 
  • #258
Lstep31 said:
Have you ever heard of anyone having difficulties applying to the patent bar exam with an engineering technologies degree when compared to a straight engineering degree?
I'm going to take a guess at what you are really asking: whether an engineering technologies degree instead of an engineering degree will qualify you under Cat A. If so, that is the wrong question. It's not a matter of engineering technology vs. engineering in general, it's a matter of the specific degree. If you check the Cat A listing, you will find several technology degrees listed (such as electronics technology and marine technology). "Plastics engineering technology" is not listed. But neither is "plastics engineering". So it's irrelevant whether your degree is in "plastics engineering technology" or "plastics engineering". Neither one is listed under Cat A.

If you wish, you can call OED and ask whether you will qualify under Cat A. The first answer will probably be "no", because they will simply look up the Cat A listing and not find your degree there. If you ask for further consideration, be aware that nothing said over the phone is binding. The only way to be sure is to actually submit an application with a $240 fee ($40 application fee plus $200 exam fee). If you do not qualify, you're out the $40, but the $200 is refunded. If you do qualify, however, you have only 90 days in which to take the exam. If you haven't prepared, that 90 days will probably lapse, and you will need to reapply. But in the overall scheme of things $240 is not a huge amount to find out in advance whether you qualify under Cat A or need to submit the additional paperwork to qualify under Cat B. Alternatively, if you are confident that you qualify under Cat B, then apply under Cat B. I do realize that a lot more paperwork is involved, and I assume you're trying to avoid that.
 
  • #259
Thank you so much for taking the time to answer our questions!
I'm a ChemE undergrad who will graduate in the upcoming year. I'm planning on taking the year off to get work experience, write the lsat and save up for law school. My question is: what kind of jobs should I aim for to improve my candidacy as a patent attorney at a large law firm? Also, how much experience (in number of years would you recommend)?
I should note, in my undergrad experience, I've gotten work experience in oil/gas, electrical engineering, manufacturing, environmental policy and software project management. Based on your knowledge of the legal industry, where is the biggest demand, and where would a ChemE degree be best served?
 
  • #260
Apologies for not contributing to the topic, but is it bad that when I read the title of this thread, I thought a joke was being made about Albert Einstein?
 
  • #261
Jennanana said:
Apologies for not contributing to the topic, but is it bad that when I read the title of this thread, I thought a joke was being made about Albert Einstein?
[Minor nitpick: Einstein worked as a patent examiner.] No, not really. When I've talked to PhD physicists about a career in patents (various aspects), the reaction often has been, "But that's so beneath what I've been doing." My usual quip is, "Hey, it wasn't beneath Albert Einstein!"
 
  • #262
If you could specialize in defending clients against software patents, and work to invalidate existing software patents, that would be a very good thing. But the best thing would be to terminate the software patent system. There should be no software patents, in my opinion.
 
  • #265
Astronuc said:
The Supreme Court could fundamentally change America's broken patent system
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tc-heartland-v-kraft-foods-125940843.html

Aspiring patent and IP attorneys should pay attention.

The headline of that article is a gross overstatement. Note that the pending case is limited to the narrow issue of venue in patent litigation; main effect will be on patent trolls and counsel who represent such trolls. Scientists and engineers on this forum who are contemplating a career switch to IP will likely focus on patent prosecution to leverage their technical expertise. This pending case will not directly affect patent prosecution.
 
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  • #266
Greg Bernhardt said:
My sister said read this instead of the yahoo article
https://cdn.patentlyo.com/media/2017/03/Janicke.2017.Venue_.pdf
Definitely a more reasoned article, but it is written for patent professionals. The yahoo article provides more background for general readers who are not patent professionals, but it is riddled with hyperbole.
 
  • #267
Hi! I read through the thread and all the information is very helpful, thanks for the detailed explanation.
I'm not sure if more questions are to be answered, but I have a question about my career path: currently I'm doing a BS in electrical engineering, and I'm thinking about getting a masters in EE before moving on to a law career potentially. Do the thesis master and the non-thesis master make a difference? Non-thesis master is faster to complete so it's nice time-wise, but as I searched online there are certain advantages about getting extra research experience. I'm just not sure how the law profession looks at the extra research background offered in a thesis master. Thanks!
 
  • #268
I expect that the difference will not be fully appreciated in the legal profession (i.e. it probably won't make any practical difference either way regarding employment or prestige in the industry).
 
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  • #269
berned_you said:
I expect that the difference will not be fully appreciated in the legal profession (i.e. it probably won't make any practical difference either way regarding employment or prestige in the industry).
Basically agree. In the OP's situation, a master's thesis, with one exception, would not give him an edge in landing a job with a firm or give him an advantage in prosecution. The exception, which is highly unlikely, is if he completes his thesis, goes off to law school, and then interviews with a firm that just happens to have a major client active in the particular specialty in which he did his thesis.

The following research experience will be advantageous: (a) PhD, which will allow you to tackle more technically complex inventions than the ones that the majority of patent attorneys can handle, and (b) industrial R&D, but a min of 3 yrs, preferably 5 yrs, which will allow you to interact with inventors on their own terms; especially if you gain experience as an inventor yourself. But note: I do not recommend that you gain experience in (a) or (b) specifically to further your career as a patent attorney. It's just that if you have that experience and then switch careers to patent attorney, you can leverage that experience.

That said, if you are on the fence, and not certain you will go to law school, a master's thesis will give you valuable experience should you decide to go into industry instead. How much more time and $ would be needed?
 
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  • #270
berned_you said:
I expect that the difference will not be fully appreciated in the legal profession (i.e. it probably won't make any practical difference either way regarding employment or prestige in the industry).
Thanks!
CrysPhys said:
Basically agree. In the OP's situation, a master's thesis, with one exception, would not give him an edge in landing a job with a firm or give him an advantage in prosecution. The exception, which is highly unlikely, is if he completes his thesis, goes off to law school, and then interviews with a firm that just happens to have a major client active in the particular specialty in which he did his thesis.

The following research experience will be advantageous: (a) PhD, which will allow you to tackle more technically complex inventions than the ones that the majority of patent attorneys can handle, and (b) industrial R&D, but a min of 3 yrs, preferably 5 yrs, which will allow you to interact with inventors on their own terms; especially if you gain experience as an inventor yourself. But note: I do not recommend that you gain experience in (a) or (b) specifically to further your career as a patent attorney. It's just that if you have that experience and then switch careers to patent attorney, you can leverage that experience.

That said, if you are on the fence, and not certain you will go to law school, a master's thesis will give you valuable experience should you decide to go into industry instead. How much more time and $ would be needed?

Thanks! Very helpful information to get before I actually apply to anywhere. I'm about to be a senior undergrad in the fall, so it's somewhat late for me to think about this now, but my school is very engineering-oriented and I always thought that I'd get a PhD in EE. Now I'm thinking that doing research is not the right thing for me and I'm looking at other options. I could finish a non-thesis master in Spring 2019, and a thesis master would be one, if not two, years longer, so the non-thesis choice is really efficient.
My main struggle is that although the law career sounds very enticing and I like its features as others describe it to me, I have no real experience in law, so I feel hesitant to choose my path base on impressions. (After I went into labs and did research I was then able to find that I don't actually enjoy it.) So a thesis master is more "secure" in the sense that I may still step back to engineering.
 
  • #271
langendourff said:
My main struggle is that although the law career sounds very enticing and I like its features as others describe it to me, I have no real experience in law, so I feel hesitant to choose my path base on impressions. (After I went into labs and did research I was then able to find that I don't actually enjoy it.)
If that's the case, tred carefully. Life in a law firm is a lot different from life in an industrial R&D lab. Given the time and $ to pursue a law career, you should have a good idea of what life would be like. Check if your university has an intellectual property and technology transfer department. If so, talk to someone there and get referrals to patent attorneys that the university engages to do its work. Then talk to several patent attorneys to get a good notion of what daily life in a firm is like. If any are local, try to arrange for an actual meeting.
 
  • #272
CrysPhys said:
If that's the case, tred carefully. Life in a law firm is a lot different from life in an industrial R&D lab. Given the time and $ to pursue a law career, you should have a good idea of what life would be like. Check if your university has an intellectual property and technology transfer department. If so, talk to someone there and get referrals to patent attorneys that the university engages to do its work. Then talk to several patent attorneys to get a good notion of what daily life in a firm is like. If any are local, try to arrange for an actual meeting.

ETA: Here's an alternative option to decide whether you would thrive (or at least survive) in a law firm environment, without going to law school. Once you have received your BSEE, you can sit for the patent bar exam and apply for a position as a patent agent in a patent law firm. As a patent agent, you can do only patent prosecution, not patent litigation. But with some exceptions, the daily patent prosecution tasks you do as a patent agent are the same you would do as a patent attorney. Try it out for two years. If you like it, then go to law school (some large firms will even subsidize part time law school). If you don't, then you would have found out that engineering isn't so bad in comparison, and go find an engineering job (I don't think a 2 yr gap after a MS will hurt that much in your case). Or, you can decide to skip law school and engineering, and stay a patent agent. I typically do not recommend a patent agent position as an ultimate career goal for someone young and straight out of school, but who knows (and it's your choice at that point)?

One timeline to do this is to study for the patent bar after graduation with your BS and take the exam before your MS program starts (you'll probably be too busy once your MS program is under way). Then apply for a patent agent position upon completion of your MS. Otherwise, study for the patent bar and take the patent bar after you complete your MS.
 
  • #273
CrysPhys said:
ETA: Here's an alternative option to decide whether you would thrive (or at least survive) in a law firm environment, without going to law school. Once you have received your BSEE, you can sit for the patent bar exam and apply for a position as a patent agent in a patent law firm. As a patent agent, you can do only patent prosecution, not patent litigation. But with some exceptions, the daily patent prosecution tasks you do as a patent agent are the same you would do as a patent attorney. Try it out for two years. If you like it, then go to law school (some large firms will even subsidize part time law school). If you don't, then you would have found out that engineering isn't so bad in comparison, and go find an engineering job (I don't think a 2 yr gap after a MS will hurt that much in your case). Or, you can decide to skip law school and engineering, and stay a patent agent. I typically do not recommend a patent agent position as an ultimate career goal for someone young and straight out of school, but who knows (and it's your choice at that point)?

One timeline to do this is to study for the patent bar after graduation with your BS and take the exam before your MS program starts (you'll probably be too busy once your MS program is under way). Then apply for a patent agent position upon completion of your MS. Otherwise, study for the patent bar and take the patent bar after you complete your MS.

Thanks for the amazing advice! I'm thinking about something similar today, and this sounds more comfortable than going to a JD straight after my MS. I'm considering taking the LSAT before I finish BSEE, spend two-three years max in MS, one year as a patent agent (I checked that this year there is a position that accepts fresh undergrad/master student and sponsors patent bar, hopefully situations would remain similar in a few years), then apply to JD if I were still interested at that time. So at this point my only work is to apply to grad school and maintain my GPA and take the LSAT and at least look at the patent bar - doesn't sound too bad.
 
  • #274
langendourff said:
Thanks for the amazing advice! I'm thinking about something similar today, and this sounds more comfortable than going to a JD straight after my MS. I'm considering taking the LSAT before I finish BSEE, spend two-three years max in MS, one year as a patent agent (I checked that this year there is a position that accepts fresh undergrad/master student and sponsors patent bar, hopefully situations would remain similar in a few years), then apply to JD if I were still interested at that time. So at this point my only work is to apply to grad school and maintain my GPA and take the LSAT and at least look at the patent bar - doesn't sound too bad.
Sounds like a great plan. Good luck to you.
 
  • #275
berned_you said:
Chem essentially requires and advanced degree (MS or phd). Law school is a JD and don't bother with a LLM.

Thank you so very much for taking your time to put this information out there.

I have my Bachelor's in Chemistry (General Chemistry), and am definitely interested in becoming a Patent Attorney. I've just taken my LSAT, and I was considering a Master's (MS) in Pharmaceutical Nanotechnology before Law school. Would that be a good idea, given the interest in advance degrees for biotech Patent attorneys' job prospects? I also speak French and Japanese, do you know if that is any advantage? I am very willing to work internationally in the future.
 
  • #276
Nicole23 said:
Thank you so very much for taking your time to put this information out there.

I have my Bachelor's in Chemistry (General Chemistry), and am definitely interested in becoming a Patent Attorney. I've just taken my LSAT, and I was considering a Master's (MS) in Pharmaceutical Nanotechnology before Law school. Would that be a good idea, given the interest in advance degrees for biotech Patent attorneys' job prospects? I also speak French and Japanese, do you know if that is any advantage? I am very willing to work internationally in the future.

Since I’m a patent agent with a physics PhD, and not a patent attorney with a chem MS, I can’t address your question directly from first-hand knowledge. But, since you have not received any answer at all, here’s the best info I can provide.

(1) An MS in Pharmaceutical Nanotechnology, I assume, is a fairly new degree, so it’s not clear how much in demand it is for law firms. You’d probably need to luck out; i.e., interview with a firm who has major clients in the field of pharmaceutical nanotechnology.

(2) No one can predict what the job market will be in 4+ yrs from now. But for the last several years, the competition for new patent attorneys with a chemistry background has been pretty tough. It is possible to a get a slot with an MS, but you are competing with PhDs. Big Pharma has been (and still is) consolidating, and government grant money has been tight. So PhDs have been considering alternative careers ... including patent law.

(3) If you are fluent in French and Japanese, it could help if a firm has major French or Japanese clients. Note: statistically, the European country with the most patent applications is Germany. So German would be more helpful; but again, you could luck out if a firm has a major French client. A lot of applications do come out of Japan. But I’m mainly familiar with the electronics, telcom, and semiconductor companies; I don’t know about chem companies and pharmas. You mentioned that you would be willing to work internationally in the future. There are overseas firms that hire US patent attorneys. However, they typically want someone with 5+ yrs experience. So you still would initially need to land a position in a US firm.

(4) As I recommended to another poster, you should start networking early. If your university has an intellectual property and technology transfer (IP & TT) dept, visit them and ask for the names of outside counsel (patent attorneys) who handle their patent work. Then talk to them over the phone (or in person if possible) to discuss your plans. If you go for an MS, you might consider part-time work (even as a volunteer) in the IP & TT dept just for the networking opportunity ... personal connections really help in this business.
 
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  • #277
CrysPhys said:
Since I’m a patent agent with a physics PhD, and not a patent attorney with a chem MS, I can’t address your question directly from first-hand knowledge. But, since you have not received any answer at all, here’s the best info I can provide.

(1) An MS in Pharmaceutical Nanotechnology, I assume, is a fairly new degree, so it’s not clear how much in demand it is for law firms. You’d probably need to luck out; i.e., interview with a firm who has major clients in the field of pharmaceutical nanotechnology.

(2) No one can predict what the job market will be in 4+ yrs from now. But for the last several years, the competition for new patent attorneys with a chemistry background has been pretty tough. It is possible to a get a slot with an MS, but you are competing with PhDs. Big Pharma has been (and still is) consolidating, and government grant money has been tight. So PhDs have been considering alternative careers ... including patent law.

(3) If you are fluent in French and Japanese, it could help if a firm has major French or Japanese clients. Note: statistically, the European country with the most patent applications is Germany. So German would be more helpful; but again, you could luck out if a firm has a major French client. A lot of applications do come out of Japan. But I’m mainly familiar with the electronics, telcom, and semiconductor companies; I don’t know about chem companies and pharmas. You mentioned that you would be willing to work internationally in the future. There are overseas firms that hire US patent attorneys. However, they typically want someone with 5+ yrs experience. So you still would initially need to land a position in a US firm.

(4) As I recommended to another poster, you should start networking early. If your university has an intellectual property and technology transfer (IP & TT) dept, visit them and ask for the names of outside counsel (patent attorneys) who handle their patent work. Then talk to them over the phone (or in person if possible) to discuss your plans. If you go for an MS, you might consider part-time work (even as a volunteer) in the IP & TT dept just for the networking opportunity ... personal connections really help in this business.

Thank you very much, I agree with everything you said. You are correct, the pharmaceutical nanotechnology Master's is indeed a new/recent degree. I am still doing my research and deciding on it. That program has their own Patent Attorney on staff, and I intended to try to speak with her for these exact reasons. I too noticed competition in the Chemistry field is high, which is why I'm looking to best bolster my chances and marketable skills. I'm sure I could learn German as well. My college is pretty successful with acquiring patents via their researchers, so I will definitely be aware of the necessity of networking and your suggestions. This thread has also made me aware of the good experience that can be gained from being a patent agent, and I appreciate that. Thank you!
 
  • #278
I've interned at a patent firm and I found the work mentally challenging and very demanding. The partner I worked under stayed in office 10-11 hrs, six days a week, barely taking a lunch break. Is this typically to be expected in the IP career path, and does it get easier? One would expect senior associates to work less as they move into managerial positions... any ideas if litigation or examiner positions are less demanding? Alternatively, I wonder if senior patent prosecutors eventually set their own small practice, much like you see with dentistry?
 
  • #279
mcmath said:
I've interned at a patent firm and I found the work mentally challenging and very demanding. The partner I worked under stayed in office 10-11 hrs, six days a week, barely taking a lunch break. Is this typically to be expected in the IP career path, and does it get easier? One would expect senior associates to work less as they move into managerial positions... any ideas if litigation or examiner positions are less demanding? Alternatively, I wonder if senior patent prosecutors eventually set their own small practice, much like you see with dentistry?

(I) I will address only patent prosecution, since I have direct experience with that. [I have a good notion of workloads of litigators and examiners, but it's second-hand.] Here’s how to get a first-order approximation of your workload. Assume 4 weeks off for personal time (e.g., vacations, holidays, personal days, and sick days); so you work 48 wks/yr. On a daily basis, you need to account for your hours, which fall roughly into the following buckets (simplified for ease of discussion):

(a) Client-related, billable hrs. E.g., time spent on new applications and responses to office actions. This time, in principle, is capable of being billed to a client. Because of price caps or flat-rate charges, however, the actual amount billed to a client may be less. The actual billed time is literally your bread-and-butter. [Caveat: Some firms use “billable” and “billed” in the opposite sense to that used here.]

(b) Client-related, non-billable hrs. E.g., time spent in initial discussions with potential new clients and travel time to-and-from existing clients are, in general, non-billable for prosecution.

(c) Firm-related, essential. This refers, e.g., to filling out time sheets, billing reconciliation, reading and responding to e-mail, organizing and reviewing your docket, organizing your files, mandatory docket reviews with your managing partner or senior associate, mandatory firm meetings, and mandatory continuing education.

(d) Firm-related, non-essential. This refers, e.g., to serving on diversity committees and quality-of-life committees, on-campus recruitment and job fairs, writing papers, giving presentations, pro-bono work, courting new clients, and schmoozing with existing clients.

(e) Personal. This refers, e.g., to lunch, coffee, and bathroom breaks ... and time spent schmoozing with colleagues.

Firms have various compensation schemes. A common one is a set salary for a minimum number of billable or billed hours plus a bonus for hours in excess of the required minimum (up to a max cap).

A moderate minimum requirement, e.g., is 1800 billable hrs/yr. Averaged out over 48 wks, that’s 37.5 billable hrs/wk (7.5 billable hrs/day, assuming a 5-day work wk). Now, again assuming a 5-day work week, tack on ~1 – 2 hrs/day for non-billable client and essential firm-related time and ~1 – 1.5 hrs/day for personal time. So you come up with a total base time at the office of ~9.5 – 11 hrs/day for a 5-day work wk.

A heavier minimum requirement is 2000 billable hrs/yr; with some firms even higher. And remember, these are minimum requirements. If you’re an ambitious associate bucking for partner, you need to consistently and substantially exceed your minimums ... and take on non-essential firm-related work.

(II) I haven’t a clue what you mean by “One would expect senior associates to work less as they move into managerial positions ...” In some firms, some senior associates will manage the work of junior associates. Insofar as the time falls under the bucket of “client-related, billable”, it is credited towards their billable-hours total. Insofar as the time is spent answering general questions, that time is not credited. The distribution of work activities may change for a senior associate, but they don’t work fewer hours. Similarly, if you become a partner, the compensation scheme changes, and the distribution of work activities changes, but you don’t work fewer hours.

(III) Some experienced prosecutors do open their own firms. The hours are more flexible, obviously, but the workload is as heavy, or, more likely, even heavier, since they have more responsibilities.

(IV) If you want to trade off $$ for more personal time, look at smaller firms. They are usually more flexible in negotiating hours. And since there is typically no partnership track, there’s no pressure to load on extra duties to prove you’re partner material. But if you're expecting a 9 - 5 job, inclusive of lunch and breaks, 5 days/wk, patent prosecution is not the job for you.
 
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  • #280
PhD in Chemical Engineering here.

1. How important is the PhD thesis topic (Both for school and job prospects)?
  • I am working in a field that can be most concisely described as Physical Chemistry. Will prospective employers see my thesis work as a disadvantage compared to those who are specialized in, say, biotechnology?
2. I envision myself working as a policymaker for scientific causes (e.g. climate change, CRISPR).
  • Is going to law school the most efficient route? Is IP Law an efficient route?
  • How easy is it to transition careers from IP Law to other careers?
3. Follow-up question to 2. Based on my interests, which law school do you think is the best fit for me?
4. Which Asian languages can offer a competitive edge for IP lawyers?
5. Do lawyers in academia enjoy a comparable salary to those in the private sector?
6. Is it worth going to law school only if you get into a top-tier program?
 

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