My friend is a sociopath, he asked me a thought provoking question.

[1MileCrash]

"Why should I change?

I can always find ways to get what I want, I am able to mimic normal human behavior and etiquette, no one really knows my true nature, I can manipulate anyone, and always come out on top. I don't get hurt, I don't get attached to people, I am more content than any of you, I am happier than any of you. I never disapprove of my own actions, I never feel regret, I can convince myself of anything and in doing so I make it true.

Why should I change when there is nothing to be had but advantages? What I lack is unnecessary, a remnant of human nature that is nothing but a burden, or so I've heard. People confide feelings in me, considering me a trusted friend because they just don't see that I fake all interactions I have with people. I don't understand feelings, and I don't want to or need to, and I certainly don't feel like I'm missing out on anything by not being able to experience them."

 

[lisab]

Well, if he's not having the troubles that often trip up sociopaths (trouble with the law and authority in general), and his condition isn't hurting anyone, then...why should he change?

 

[rootX]

I can only say don't try to change him.

 

[1MileCrash]

Well, if he's not having the troubles that often trip up sociopaths (trouble with the law and authority in general), and his condition isn't hurting anyone, then...why should he change?

I think this is his sentiment as well. But he figures that there must be a logical reason why anti-social disorder is a "disorder." As far as he can see, it is nothing but advantageous.

I can only say don't try to change him.

Out of the few people who he's revealed (accidentally or otherwise) his true nature to, the ones who have tried to change him end up disappointed and pushed away, and they don't understand.

 

[lisab]

I guess it's a disorder because so many who have it can't stay out of trouble with the law, and cause trouble for those around them.

Also, it's very unnerving to know people who have absolutely no sense of remorse. To me, at least.

 

[Yanick]

I agree with lisab on this.

My understanding of Psychological disorders is that they are pretty normal emotions, behaviors that go way out of whack.

Take OCD for example. I'm sure we've all had a situation where we develop some type of ritual and feel 'off' when it is not completed. Like checking the lock to your house after you leave in the morning, I've actually gone back home to make sure the house is locked. I know people who cannot (or will not or whatever) sleep unless they smoke a cigarette before bed. To the point where, if they smoke a cigarette, then have something to do which takes 15-20 minutes, they will smoke another one before going to bed.

Schizophrenia? We all have paranoid feelings once in a while (does he/she really like me or is he/she just messing with me?). Everyone experiences something moving out of the corner of their eyes once in a while, or mumbles to themselves sometimes.

Bipolar? Good days and bad days, we all have them. Sometimes you just want to stay in bed all day, sometimes you want to go out before the sun is up to make as much out of the day as you can.

Asocial type disorders? We all want to be alone sometimes other times we would like to be in the center of things (aka narcissistic personality disorder).

These only become problems when the behaviors/emotions are taken to an extreme. When they get in the way of your daily functioning or pose problems for friends, family, acquaintances or society at large. There is also the phenomenon that many people who have these types of psych. problems, don't realize that they have the problem. Your friend is obviously aware of his own emotions/behaviors etc. That's always a good sign.

These things become problems when the behaviors are extreme. Skinning cats alive or creating hit-lists, stalking etc are the problems.

As long as the guy conforms to societal norms to a reasonable extent (little things like not killing people/animals, having a job/house, paying taxes etc), there is no problem that I can see. Let him be as cold hearted and manipulative as he wants, its his life. And maybe he has a point, it does seem like it would be easier to just not care and do things for yourself. I know a few people like that and I envy them greatly, they seem to enjoy life.

 

[russ_watters]

Why should I change when there is nothing to be had but advantages? What I lack is unnecessary, a remnant of human nature that is nothing but a burden, or so I've heard.

...I don't understand feelings, and I don't want to or need to, and I certainly don't feel like I'm missing out on anything by not being able to experience them."

You don't have to feel like you are missing something in order to actually be missing something. Moreover, very few people would consider the second sentence to be true. I would wager that most people who have felt the range of emotions consider human emotional interaction - in particular, love - to be one of the greatest things about being a human.

 

[nismaratwork]

It's very rare for a true sociopath to be so aware of their own state, because of a simple lack of contrast. If he is a sociopath, run like hell.

He could just be a malignant narcissist, or any number of other things including a poor deluded sot. In the end, PD-AS (ASPD, Sociopathy, Psychopathy) is something that requires professional diagnosis. If he is a psychopath, then you're not his friend; they do not have friends nor would they understand the concept.

More likely he's not a sociopath, just emotionally stunted, or traumatized, or otherwise dysfunctional... I'm not sure why but some seem to see sociopathy as somehow romantic or special. It's not, and despite what others have said the very definition of Sociopathy precludes conforming to social norms... hence "Personality Disorder - Anti Social Type". The major criteria is lack of empathy, lack of impulse control... and a persistent inability to recognize or respect social norms within their own culture.

Sorry, probably this person is hurting, and thinks he can be empty or hard... doesn't work, and usually ends badly.

 

[nismaratwork]

On the other hand, the reality is that sociopathy is generally disadvantagous, usually ending in death, jail, addiction, and indigence. There is little advantage to being blind to social cues and the feelings of others, and to lack planning and impulse control. The statistics are clear, most die young, or end in jail.

If that's a plus, then I'd hate to think of a minus. Nothing that this guy is saying makes sense, even within the rubric of ASPD, only posing for his own sake.

 

[1MileCrash]

It's very rare for a true sociopath to be so aware of their own state, because of a simple lack of contrast. If he is a sociopath, run like hell.

He could just be a malignant narcissist, or any number of other things including a poor deluded sot. In the end, PD-AS (ASPD, Sociopathy, Psychopathy) is something that requires professional diagnosis. If he is a psychopath, then you're not his friend; they do not have friends nor would they understand the concept.

He wasn't diagnosed until a couple years ago, but he's been seeing psychologists for many, many years. I don't think he ever got anything out of it. He was diagnosed as anti-social disorder though, not as a sociopath (if there is a difference.)

Is he really my friend? Well, I don't know what he sees me as. When we're around 20 other acquaintances no one would know he was different at all. When I or someone else who knows him better is the only one within earshot he'll change. Not to be worse, not rude or nasty, just... machine-like.


As far being aware of his self state, I don't even know if he is. I think he's half-convinced himself that most people are like him and are just pretending, like he is, but won't admit it. He's even told me that I should just admit that "you're in it for yourself too" because it's better this way.

I do think that it is dangerous. He is literally never wrong. I don't mean incorrect, he'll acknowledge that he's incorrect, but it's like... he's the protagonist of the world.

 

[nismaratwork]

He wasn't diagnosed until a couple years ago, but he's been seeing psychologists for many, many years. I don't think he ever got anything out of it. He was diagnosed as anti-social disorder though, not as a sociopath (if there is a difference.)

Is he really my friend? Well, I don't know what he sees me as. When we're around 20 other acquaintances no one would know he was different at all. When I or someone else who knows him better is the only one within earshot he'll change. Not to be worse, not rude or nasty, just... machine-like.


As far being aware of his self state, I don't even know if he is. I think he's half-convinced himself that most people are like him and are just pretending, like he is, but won't admit it. He's even told me that I should just admit that "you're in it for yourself too" because it's better this way.

I do think that it is dangerous. He is literally never wrong. I don't mean incorrect, he'll acknowledge that he's incorrect, but it's like... he's the protagonist of the world.

Sociopath or not (and sociopath is just an older term predating "Anti-social personality disorder"), he could be many things, depressed, autistic, narcissitic... too many to guess. Still... a formal diangoses of ASPD is not good. If he's a sociopath, then you are NOT HIS FRIEND. Sociopaths don't have them, like nations, they have interests. If he needs to go through you to get what he wants, it won't bother him at all.

Be careful.

 

[Proton Soup]

"Why should I change?

I can always find ways to get what I want, I am able to mimic normal human behavior and etiquette, no one really knows my true nature, I can manipulate anyone, and always come out on top. I don't get hurt, I don't get attached to people, I am more content than any of you, I am happier than any of you. I never disapprove of my own actions, I never feel regret, I can convince myself of anything and in doing so I make it true.

Why should I change when there is nothing to be had but advantages? What I lack is unnecessary, a remnant of human nature that is nothing but a burden, or so I've heard. People confide feelings in me, considering me a trusted friend because they just don't see that I fake all interactions I have with people. I don't understand feelings, and I don't want to or need to, and I certainly don't feel like I'm missing out on anything by not being able to experience them."

so why is he your "friend"? what does he get out of it? is there any pleasure at all in human interaction for him? and if there is any pleasure in it, is there regret at losing it when it's gone?

 

[nismaratwork]

so why is he your "friend"? what does he get out of it? is there any pleasure at all in human interaction for him? and if there is any pleasure in it, is there regret at losing it when it's gone?

Possibly he enjoys someone he can intimidate in small ways, and can freely express his thoughts to without any sense of repercussions. It's hard to know if he's truly a sociopath...

 

[russ_watters]

so why is he your "friend"?

He isn't! Based on the OP, it sounds like he hangs out with those people because it pleases him to mess with them. Isn't that what the OP is? Him messing with a "friend's" head? The OP says (paraphrased):

-I'm better than you.
-I manipulate you.
-I don't care about you.
-You don't know my true nature.
-I faked every interaction we've ever had.
-I'm not your friend.

Seems pretty clear to me.

 

[nismaratwork]

He isn't! Based on the OP, it sounds like he hangs out with those people because it pleases him to mess with them. Isn't that what the OP is? Him messing with a "friend's" head?

That kind of casual manipulation and intimidation would fit the profile, sociopath or malignant narcissist.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I've met many people who claim that this is the way they are. They typically are not. They seem to simply want to be this way, usually as a sort of coping mechanism, and romanticize the idea of it as you see in books/movies like American Psycho and Silence of the Lambs.

If a psychologist diagnosed him as such after several years of therapy then I'd be inclined to question the diagnosis.

 

[Pythagorean]

I agree with StatApe based on my small samples size. Sociopaths have feelings just like every other human, they're just not as closely tied to social interactions, or sometimes they are but in a distorted way; I have a friend who's a sociopath, but generally is only manipulative towards women and people he doesn't like; he has a small group of friends on who he depends emotionally and sometimes he gets really needy and starts trying to manipulate attention and time from his friends, sometimes offering material things in exchange.

They can be up on a high horse sometimes (just like every other human) and say things like your friend said (overplaying their own stereotype).

 

[revnaknuma]

I am a narcissistic psychopath, too.
I love my narcissism. the only difficulty is managing my anger. meds help.

 

[nismaratwork]

I am a narcissistic psychopath, too.
I love my narcissism. the only difficulty is managing my anger. meds help.

NPD and ASPD are both criteria for NOT having the other... you don't have both. I'd add... medication tends not to be very effective in anything except sedating sociopaths. Again, I'd add sociopaths are notorious for showing a distinct lack of interest in their own state, not just casually, but pathologically.

A narcissist wouldn't have made the post you did; find a better doctor, or fantasy as the case may be.


@Pythagorean: They have feelings, they lack empathy, insight, and impulse control (and other executive functions), but not feelings. Their expressions of such are often socially innapropriate, distant even, but by no means absent.

@TSA: Yep, people look at ASPD and think only of the "Dexters" of fiction or some kind of aloof-yet-happy guy. In fact, sociopaths tend to be miserable, and unable to cope very well with life as it comes to tem, repeating the same mistakes until they are incarcerated, killed, or homeless. It's a miserable thing, but it seems to be very "pop", whereas other PDs are not.

 

[cobalt124]

Agree with other posters (nismar, you saved me a lot of typing, though I would have put it differently). It's his choice, and no-one should try to change him. However, if you're not open to all the things life can offer, this skews your choices, and your friend could well end up looking back with regret later on in life. If he doesn't, well I don't think that offers much advantage either.

 

[nismaratwork]

Agree with other posters (nismar, you saved me a lot of typing, though I would have put it differently). It's his choice, and no-one should try to change him. However, if you're not open to all the things life can offer, this skews your choices, and your friend could well end up looking back with regret later on in life. If he doesn't, well I don't think that offers much advantage either.

I agree completely, although sociopathy is no choice to be fair, I assume you mean the socioposeur?

By the way, feel free to say what you would have, different is good, and this is no competition.

 

[cobalt124]

I'm afraid it's time that's stopping me at the moment, nothing else.

 

[nismaratwork]

I'm afraid it's time that's stopping me at the moment, nothing else.

...But colbat... "time keeps on slipping, into the future..."

 

[lisab]

I agree completely, although sociopathy is no choice to be fair, I assume you mean the socioposeur?

By the way, feel free to say what you would have, different is good, and this is no competition.

Socioposeur...:rofl: brilliant!

 

[nismaratwork]

Socioposeur...:rofl: brilliant!

Thank you lisab!

 

[cobalt124]

...But colbat... "time keeps on slipping, into the future..."

Time is money, and at the moment I have both in equal amounts!

 

[nismaratwork]

Time is money, and at the moment I have both in equal amounts!

Ouch... well hopefully the use of one will lead to an accumulation of the latter, and then a glut of the former, leading to a disdain of the latter, and a hatred of the former, then a love of both.

 

[Femme_physics]

but it's like... he's the protagonist of the world.

Wow, he thinks he's protagonist of the world? Yea, other people don't do that, he's definitely a special case

And OMG, he pretends to be something he's not in order to get by in life? That's totally weird! People never ever do that too.

And woah, a man that doesn't understand feelings or get attached to people? One out of a billion!

... he just puts it in sentences that make him sound weird, but he's basically doing what everybody else is doing ... he's like everybody else.

 

[lisab]

Wow, he thinks a protagonist of the world? Yea, other people don't do that, he's definitely a special case

And OMG, he pretends to be something he's not in order to get by in life? That's totally weird! People never ever do that too.

And woah, a man that doesn't understand feelings or get attached to people? One out of a billion!




... he just puts it in sentences that make him sound weird, but he's basically doing what everybody else is doing ... he's like everybody else.

:rofl: There are some brilliant posts in this thread...

 

[DaveC426913]

As far being aware of his self state, I don't even know if he is. I think he's half-convinced himself that most people are like him and are just pretending, like he is, but won't admit it. He's even told me that I should just admit that "you're in it for yourself too" because it's better this way.

He is literally never wrong. I don't mean incorrect, he'll acknowledge that he's incorrect, but it's like... he's the protagonist of the world.

So, he's a teenager. Got it.

 

[Loren Booda]

Antisocial personality disorder (sociopathy) is primarily a learned condition, as are most personality disorders. It is a very ingrained personality disorder, often arising from Oppositional Defiant Disorder, itself often rooted in maladaptation to abuse in childhood.

Sociopaths will attack others at any convenient, perceived provocation - such as empathy. Such people can "think" emotions as others feel them. Psychologists are readily fooled by their deceit.

Do any of you know the differences and similarities between sociopathy and sadism?

 

[Proton Soup]

Antisocial personality disorder (sociopathy) is primarily a learned condition, as are most personality disorders. It is a very ingrained personality disorder, often arising from Oppositional Defiant Disorder, itself often rooted in maladaptation to abuse in childhood.

Sociopaths will attack others at any convenient, perceived provocation - such as empathy. Such people can "think" emotions as others feel them. Psychologists are readily fooled by their deceit.

Do any of you know the differences and similarities between sociopathy and sadism?

i'm not sure what you mean. sadism is deriving pleasure from inflicting pain on others.

if a sociopath inflicts pain, it may simply be a means to another end. it's not the actual pain he's after.

 

[nismaratwork]

Antisocial personality disorder (sociopathy) is primarily a learned condition, as are most personality disorders. It is a very ingrained personality disorder, often arising from Oppositional Defiant Disorder, itself often rooted in maladaptation to abuse in childhood.

Sociopaths will attack others at any convenient, perceived provocation - such as empathy. Such people can "think" emotions as others feel them. Psychologists are readily fooled by their deceit.

Do any of you know the differences and similarities between sociopathy and sadism?

This flies in the face of established medicine and psychology; personality disorders are not well understood in their origins, but they are not "learned". Sociopaths display "conduct disorder" or "ODD" in Europe, but that's simply the juvenile manifestation and criteria for the later diagnosis. Sociopaths are certainly born and made, they are not JUST made or learned.

I'd add, they don't attack due to perceived provocations relating to empathy, they LACK empathy and to be blunt, MOST don't fool anybody. The concept of "Superficial Charm" is very much a product of older thinking, along with "no anxiety". When someone who fails to show a capacity for impulse control, appropriate affect when challenged properly, lacks empathy, remorse, and insight... THEN you have the beginning of the correct diagnostic criteria.

I'd add, sadism and sociopathy are utterly different as Proton has said; sociopaths can be sadistic, but generally they simply "blow right through people" to get to their goals. MOST are not charming, not the Ted Bundy's or Ma doffs of the world... most actually cause a visceral reaction in people that's quite negative, but which we are trained to ignore: don't judge a book by its cover. It's in that setting that a sociopath can semi-adapt, but their lack of impulse control and planning, even for their own sake beyond immediate wants and needs is almost always their undoing.

Sadism is one of many Paraphililias, and isn't a Personality Disorder, or in any way related to ASPD. Sorry Loren Booda, but your information is horribly askew this time... not sure why. I think you're working with a combination of older diagnostic manuals both US and EU, and some personal interpretations. Sadistic Personality Disorder, non sexual type no longer EXISTS as a condition anymore.

Now, you could argue that it should be, but there are a world of good reasons why not, including the general absence of it as an isolated disorder, but rather an element of others. Sexual Sadism still exists as a paraphilia along with Masochism.

For the modern basics, but just the bare basics... not perfect:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder

P.S. Sociopaths come from all walks of life, not just traumatic childhoods... you may be thinking of serial killers, although that's a tough one, and also not always the case. In fact, a serial killer is not always a sociopath, and certainly most sociopaths are not serial killers... about a 1/4 end up a bums/hobos (literally, in the old sense), and most of the rest end in jail or death.

...Oh, and business and politics, but while they fill that arena, (generally the latter) it's still a vanishin minority of sociopaths.