Orbital Simulation: Estimating Mass from Orbit & Visual Observations

In summary, the conversation discusses the plausibility of an object, such as a comet, having a perihelion distance between Mercury and Venus with an orbital period of 150 years. It is suggested that the period alone does not determine the perihelion and that there may be other techniques used by astronomers to deduce the mass of an object based on its orbit and size. It is also mentioned that comets in the inner solar system may have resonant orbits with outer planets to maintain stability. The stability of the object's orbit is discussed and its relevance to the story is mentioned. The conversation ends with the confirmation that a polar orbit may be more stable.
  • #1
DaveC426913
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(unrelated to my other post about an asteroid)

1]
I would like to check a postulation with someone who has an orbital simulator, or a good head for orbital mechanics.

Given an object such as a comet with orbital period of about 150 years, could it have a perihelion at a distance between Mercury and Venus?

If no, what does work? Change period? Change perihelion?



2] Could we tell anything about this object's mass from its orbit and/or visual observations if we do not know its density or its albedo factor?
 
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  • #2
DaveC426913 said:
Given an object such as a comet with orbital period of about 150 years, could it have a perigee at a distance between Mercury and Venus?

I don't see why not. The period determines the semimajor axis of the orbit, but it doesn't say anything about the eccentricity (which, combined with semimajor axis, could give you the perigee).
2] Could we tell anything about this object's mass from its orbit and/or visual observations if we do not know its density or its albedo factor?

In a case where the orbiting mass is much smaller than the central one, the orbit is independent of the orbiting mass, so I would say no.
 
  • #3
SpaceTiger said:
I don't see why not. The period determines the semimajor axis of the orbit, but it doesn't say anything about the eccentricity (which, combined with semimajor axis, could give you the perigee).

I guess all I have to do is find a table of comets and see if any of them have a perhelion and period similar. That'd be enough to show it's plausible.




SpaceTiger said:
In a case where the orbiting mass is much smaller than the central one, the orbit is independent of the orbiting mass, so I would say no

Yes, but do astronomers use any other techniques? If we spotted a mystery object right now, and knew its orbit and size, but not its density, could we deduce anything abojut its mass?
 
  • #4
DaveC426913 said:
Yes, but do astronomers use any other techniques? If we spotted a mystery object right now, and knew its orbit and size, but not its density, could we deduce anything abojut its mass?

If it were a very small object, we would assume it was rocky...and that narrows the range of possible densities. It doesn't directly tell you about the mass, though.
 
  • #5
Ach! I can't find any info online that will demo the plausibility of this orbit.

I don't know (or care about) the semi-major axis or the eccentricity, I only know (and care about) the period and the perihelion.
 
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  • #6
DaveC426913 said:
I don't know (or care about) the semi-major axis or the eccentricity, I only know (and care about) the period and the perihelion.

There are comets with periods less than 200 years (over a hundred of them) and perihelions in the inner solar system, so I don't see why you think this would be implausible.
 
  • #7
I also am at a loss as to why you would seem to think this orbit might not be plausible.

Such an orbit would have a semi-major axis of about 4.2 billion Km (just inside Neptunes orbit), and an aphelion of between 8.3 & 8.35 billion Km, or just about 14% further than Pluto at its furthest.
 
  • #8
Thank you. I just wasn't sure.

This is for a story for a friend (a different friend), and I wanted to check the numbers.

I know that you can't just pick numbers that are convenient. Orbits ahve some constraints.
 
  • #9
But comets that pass into the inner solar system will need to have resonant orbits with the outer planets, to keep from being thrown off course, wouldn't they? It places restrictions on possible long-term stable orbits. Of course, if you ignore the planets and just look at the sun and the comet, then sure its perfectly possible.
 
  • #10
Polar orbit.
 
  • #11
DaveC426913 said:
I know that you can't just pick numbers that are convenient. Orbits ahve some constraints.

Stability constraints are more of a concern when you need your object to remain in orbit for a long time. In many cases, comets don't make it more than a few orbits into the solar system anyway, so finding one on an "unstable" orbit wouldn't be a big surprise, nor a problem. If, for some reason, you need long-term stability for your comet, that's a different story entirely and will depend in a complicated way on the many-body interactions in the solar system. Do you need it to be stable? If so, for how long?
 
  • #12
"Do you need it to be stable? If so, for how long?"

I don't know yet actually. I'll let you know when I get farther into the story! :rolleyes:

The situation at this point in the story is that they don't know how long it's been there. They only found it on its latest dive into the inner system.

In a polar orbit I presume it would be more stable.
 

1. What is orbital simulation?

Orbital simulation is a computer-based model that predicts the motion of a celestial object, such as a planet or satellite, as it moves through space. It takes into account factors such as gravity, mass, and velocity to estimate the object's trajectory.

2. How can orbital simulation be used to estimate mass?

By observing the orbit of a celestial object and plugging in its known distance from the object it is orbiting, as well as its velocity, scientists can use orbital simulation to calculate the object's mass. This is possible because the strength of gravity is directly related to an object's mass.

3. What is the importance of visual observations in orbital simulation?

Visual observations, such as tracking the movement of a celestial object through a telescope, provide data that is essential for accurate orbital simulations. By measuring the object's position and velocity at different points in its orbit, scientists can input this information into the simulation and refine their estimations of its mass.

4. Can orbital simulation accurately predict the mass of all celestial objects?

No, orbital simulation is only accurate for objects that follow predictable elliptical orbits, such as planets and satellites. Objects with irregular or chaotic orbits, such as comets or asteroids, may be more difficult to estimate mass using orbital simulation.

5. How does estimating mass from orbit benefit scientific research?

Estimating the mass of celestial objects using orbital simulation is crucial for understanding the composition and dynamics of our solar system and beyond. It also allows scientists to make predictions about the behavior of objects, such as potential collisions or gravitational interactions, which can inform future space missions and aid in our understanding of the universe.

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