Conservatives 30% more generous than liberals?

  • Thread starter Loren Booda
  • Start date
In summary, conservatives are more religious and less reliant on government assistance, which consequently leads to more generosity to charity.
  • #1
Loren Booda
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ABC's program 20/20 claims that conservatives, being more religious and less reliant on government for welfare, are consequently more generous to charity. I must be getting moderate in my middle age.
 
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  • #2
Don't mean to be belittling, but is there something specific about this that's interesting?
 
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  • #3
You need to see a breakdown of what those 'charities' are. I can probably give you a good guess at how many family planning clinics, gay rights organizations, and social advocacy groups are benefitting from this 'philanthropy'. Remember that these are the same morons that got Bush elected.
 
  • #4
(NB: I generally do not like these labels, but I like these "who's better" studies even less)

"Conservatives" tend to be more wealthy and tend to stick close to the traditional 10% tithe. wealthier conservatives are also looking for tax deductions. "Liberals" are more likely to forego a more lucrative career in order to devote their time to a cause. I tended to meet fewer conservative volunteers during my HFH stints. I'm not judging either "side" here, but there are more ways than cash by which to measure generosity.
 
  • #5
As Christians my parents always have given 10% of their income, before taxes, even when both of them had just gotten married and started jobs. I'll admit they were never poor, but most people would not be as generous as to give 10% in that financial state. We once had neighbors that gave 20%. Don't think for a moment that the money at OUR church is just going into a preachers pocket, a great deal of it is going to various charities, the upkeep of the church, etc. Depending on what you make the check out to, you can contribute to several different funds for different things. Next week we are going to be collecting clothes to send to Afghanistan. If you are more curious, many churches give records of their accounts.

-Scott
 
  • #6
'Christian charity' is a Christian myth, by Christians, for Christians.

The dubious link between Christian literalism and Christian values is also belied by other indices of charity. Consider the ratio in salaries between top-tier CEOs and their average employee: in Britain it is 24 to 1; France 15 to 1; Sweden 13 to 1; in the United States, where 83% of the population believes that Jesus literally rose from the dead, it is 475 to 1. Many a camel, it would seem, expects to squeeze easily through the eye of a needle.

http://www.truthdig.com/dig/page3/200512_an_atheist_manifesto/
http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17726

Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are donate huge amount of money, but they are not conservatives at all.
 
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  • #7
Who said other people besides Christians cannot donate money? Your post does not refute the fact that my church and my parents are charitable and give money and other things to the poor.
 
  • #8
scott_alexsk said:
Who said other people besides Christians cannot donate money? Your post does not refute the fact that my church and my parents are charitable and give money and other things to the poor.

Strawman. I argued against the assertion in the OP.
 
  • #9
Scott, I don't think that anyone is disputing the generosity of your family or many other church projects. If you look at the fundamentalist movement, however, you will observe that their donations are a political manoeuvre to fund pro-life movements, creationism in schools, gay-bashing, etc.. Vast quantities of money go to conservative lobbyists. A lot of 'street level' parishoners contribute to that without even realizing what the end purpose is.
Generally speaking, a liberal is more likely to knowingly fund important social activities such as family-planning clinics, homeless shelters, soup kitchens (without forcing the beneficiaries to say grace before chowing down), civil rights organizations, etc..
 
  • #10
Call me fundamentalist, but by my definition of life, and the view that abortion is taking the world in a very unfavorable direction (i.e. eugenics ), I would have no problem with my church funding something that would encourage the pro-life movement. Why should Christains not be active in politics? Certainly according to our system of government, Christians make up a portion of people, therefore shouldn't their collective will have some influence (within the confines of the constitution of course).

-scott
 
  • #11
scott_alexsk said:
Call me fundamentalist, but by my definition of life, and the view that abortion is taking the world in a very unfavorable direction (i.e. eugenics ), I would have no problem with my church funding something that would encourage the pro-life movement. Why should Christains not be active in politics? Certainly according to our system of government, Christians make up a portion of people, therefore shouldn't their collective will have some influence (within the confines of the constitution of course).

-scott

Abortion is not eugenics and state church separation. Christians should be active in politics, but not Christianity.
 
  • #12
My wife and I give anonymously (so our names do not get sold to solicitors) to the Salvation Army and other charitable organizations that are doing good things right here in our state. We made a larger targeted donation to the SA post-Katrina because we knew they would accomplish more with that money than the Red Cross and other top-heavy "charity" businesses could. We also donate to food pantries, organizations that support developmentally disabled people, a regional children's home and the local animal shelter. We also do seasonal giving, including SA&USMC Toys for Tots in collaboration with the United Bikers of Maine and anonymous Christmas gifts to people identified by a local charitable agency. Others who follow our methods would never get counted in the OP's surveys. And yes, we are socially progressive people.

I post this not to brag about our willingness to help others (that's just the right thing to do) but to point out that many people contribute in ways that cannot be easily tracked or tallied. We lost a dear friend to cancer a few years back. She was raised a Quaker, attended the local Unitarian church, and she gave more of herself than any person I know. She volunteered her time for so many causes, including teaching immigrants how to speak, read, and write English so they could function better in our society and improve their lot. She probably wouldn't have showed up in the OP's poll, either, despite contributing more to the needy than any single person I know. The major difference between people like us and the people that would show up in the polls, is that we give to help people who need help, not to fund wedge organizations that use the money to pressure politicians and suppress the rights and views of others.
 
  • #13
My point is that abortion will lead to eugenics and has already. Someone posted on this forum that parents now can discriminate between embryos depending on what they want. That seems like a textbook definition of eugenics to me. You may not have a problem with that sort of thing, but I do.
 
  • #14
Chi Meson's comments reflect my experience. Although I practically "tithe" my monetary income to charity, I give more value and get more enjoyment at a low-salaried position with a non-profit mental health organization, helping out at a nursing home a few hours a week, and until recently, a few hours a week staffing a nature center and overseeing its park. Volunteering allows one to work in the field one loves best, have a social outlet, be appreciated by one's boss, and make a more efficient contribution to one's community.

Folks, please stay on topic.
 
  • #15
scott_alexsk said:
My point is that abortion will lead to eugenics and has already.

I have no problem with eugenics, as long as it's at the embryonic stage or earlier. An embryo isn't a person, despite what some of those Christian Conservatives would try to have you believe. Selecting a viable one for gestation is a perfectly rational approach to improving the human race overall, as well as easing the socio-economic burden of caring for chronically unhealthy ones. The choice should be up to the parents.
Sorry, Loren; it's still off-topic, but I couldn't let it go by.
 
  • #16
scott_alexsk said:
My point is that abortion will lead to eugenics and has already. Someone posted on this forum that parents now can discriminate between embryos depending on what they want. That seems like a textbook definition of eugenics to me. You may not have a problem with that sort of thing, but I do.

What you are talking about has nothing to do with abortions. It is to do with IVF.
 
  • #17
Kurdt, sorry the practices are related in my mind. Both abortion and Invitro have the same quality of being 'selective'. I should have simply said that parents can abort a baby with some undesirable characteristic like Downs syndrome (which they do), because no one wants a baby with a problem, that has a lower IQ, that's not as strong, etc.

Danger, you may consider an embryo a bunch of cells, but it is no different than a human being with time. Logically there is really no difference. As a christian I value human life. When you kill an embryo you a killing a baby person. It is very simple. I guess with your view it would be favorable to abort all babies (and go ahead and speed it up by doing a really late term abortion on everyone else), so that in due time there will be no more problems.
 
  • #18
scott_alexsk said:
(and go ahead and speed it up by doing a really late term abortion on everyone else)

Well, I can certainly name at least half a dozen people who are overwhelming evidence in favour of retro-active abortion, but you're actually extrapolating my position a bit too far. Since I'm no expert, I accept the (general) consensus of the medical community as to the cut-off time for abortion.
 
  • #19
Chi Meson said:
(NB: I generally do not like these labels, but I like these "who's better" studies even less)

"Conservatives" tend to be more wealthy and tend to stick close to the traditional 10% tithe. wealthier conservatives are also looking for tax deductions. "Liberals" are more likely to forego a more lucrative career in order to devote their time to a cause. I tended to meet fewer conservative volunteers during my HFH stints. I'm not judging either "side" here, but there are more ways than cash by which to measure generosity.

It's also important to note that not all churches are "conservative." There are liberal churches that do a lot of charity work, and if one is lumping all religious charity into the "conservative" category, then that's not likely an accurate measure of who is donating to what.

Like you, I also put more weight on those who devote their time (time is money too, but not counted that way) to charities than those who throw money at them simply out of some obligation of "tithing." It also would depend on what the charity is. Some charity is more self-serving than truly charitable. For example, donating money to your church so the church can put on an addition or remodel or plant a new garden so your wedding photos will be more beautiful is recorded as charity, but is really a very self-serving, non-charitable donation. On the other hand, someone who is spending several hours a week offering free tutoring to poor children is being far more charitable even though that never appears in a tax record.

Also, if you give to someone in need, but don't do so through a registered charity, that's not going to be recorded in any tax record. Likewise, if you make an anonymous donation of goods that you just leave and don't get a receipt for, because you're not doing it for the tax deduction, that won't get recorded anywhere. Also, if you're not earning enough or donating enough to itemize deductions, and just take the standard deduction, there won't be a record of that either.

I also wonder how they define conservative and liberal? Are they basing it on party affiliation, assuming all Republicans are conservative and all Democrats are liberal? How is this connection made? There are a lot of moderates in both parties.

There are just too many reasons to not believe charity can be measured accurately in terms of dollars and cents to not trust such a comparison.
 
  • #20
I don't know. I think as humans have evolved to have the knowledge we do about genetic diseases it seems unwise to not use it. One could argue the natural selection that we have lost through our technology and innovation should be policed by our knowledge and personal responsibility to the rest of the human race. All IVF does is give people with the chance of passing on genetic illnesses an oppourtunity to have children because their embryos are screened when they would otherwise abstain.

With respect to the original post. I think the results come about for reasons stated, where conservative christians will be giving their 10% whereas those denoted liberals tend to be less religious and donate more anonamously to other charities. I also hate labels, and this piece of news is nought but ill researched propaganda that can easily be picked apart by those with some sense.
 
  • #21
Why should I bother to do charity on my own?

I whole-heartedly support taxation as a means to liquidate funds that can be used in an intelligent and compassionate manner.

On basis of political programs, I throw in my vote to the party I think have the overall best profile, one of the factors being what social benefits they advocate for which groups.

BTW, I am highly critical to some of our parties on our political left that uncritically wish to shower unworthy needy with my money gained through taxation.


If there is some group I'd like to support that is not getting the amount I think they deserve, I might consider giving them some of my money privately.
 
  • #22
Moonbear said:
I also wonder how they define conservative and liberal? Are they basing it on party affiliation, assuming all Republicans are conservative and all Democrats are liberal? How is this connection made? There are a lot of moderates in both parties.

I was wondering the same thing. I, for example, am a rather strong supporter of the Democratic party. At the same time, I am socially very conservative. I'm not sure which side they'd put me on.
 
  • #23
arunma said:
I'm not sure which side they'd put me on.

Start buying Preparation-H by the truckload, because you're firmly impaled on a picket.
 
  • #24
Danger said:
Start buying Preparation-H by the truckload, because you're firmly impaled on a picket.

I rely on a good pair of tweezers due to chronic splinters from incessant fence-jumping.
 
  • #25
Chi Meson said:
I rely on a good pair of tweezers due to chronic splinters from incessant fence-jumping.

And a rear-view mirror, I assume?
 
  • #26
Danger said:
And a rear-view mirror, I assume?

The real problem is that other people keep moving the fence into unexpected places.
 
  • #27
There is also the question of correlation =/= causation. Did they donate, because they were conservatives or because they were nice people to begin with?
 
  • #28
Moridin said:
TDid they donate, because they were conservatives or because they were nice people to begin with?

Oh, sure... try to screw it up by classifiying Conservatives as people...
 
  • #29
Here is an interesting and somwhat related twist.
Although most religious traditions call on the faithful to serve the poor, a large cross-sectional survey of U.S. physicians found that those who are more religious are slightly less likely to practice medicine among the underserved than doctors with no religious affiliation.

In the July/August issue of the Annals of Family Medicine, researchers from the University of Chicago and Yale New Haven Hospital report that 31 percent of physicians who were more religious -- as measured by "intrinsic religiosity" as well as frequency of attendance at religious services -- practiced among the underserved, compared with 35 percent of physicians who described their religion as atheist, agnostic or none.

...Curlin and colleagues also noted that those who identified themselves as very spiritual, whether or not they were religious, were roughly twice as likely to care for the underserved as those who described their spirituality as low. [continued]
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2007/08/religious_doctors.html
 
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  • #30
Chi Meson said:
"Conservatives" tend to be more wealthy and tend to stick close to the traditional 10% tithe. wealthier conservatives are also looking for tax deductions. "Liberals" are more likely to forego a more lucrative career in order to devote their time to a cause. I tended to meet fewer conservative volunteers during my HFH stints. I'm not judging either "side" here, but there are more ways than cash by which to measure generosity.


The ABC program quotes Arthur Brooks as the source of the 30% disparity in their story.

Arthur Brooks, the author of "Who Really Cares," says that "when you look at the data, it turns out the conservatives give about 30 percent more." He adds, "And incidentally, conservative-headed families make slightly less money."

He goes on to say:

"You find that people who believe it's the government's job to make incomes more equal, are far less likely to give their money away," Brooks says. In fact, people who disagree with the statement, "The government has a basic responsibility to take care of the people who can't take care of themselves," are 27 percent more likely to give to charity.

and this nugget:

And what about the middle class? Well, while middle-income Americans are generous compared to people in other countries, compared to the rich and the working poor, they give less. "The two most generous groups in America are the rich and the working poor," says Brooks. "The middle class give the least."

Ouch! (His words, not mine!)

and finally:

Religious people are more likely to give to charity, and when they give, they give more money: four times as much. And Arthur Brooks told me that giving goes beyond their own religious organization:

"Actually, the truth is that they're giving to more than their churches," he says. "The religious Americans are more likely to give to every kind of cause and charity, including explicitly non-religious charities."
http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2682730&page=1

I guess the moral of the story is thank God for, well... GOD!

I have no idea what Mr. Brooks uses to measure liberal or conservative in his book and I don't think it is important enough to buy it and research it. But if he is accurate, and I'm not saying he is, the real question here is, "Why would a humanist (athiest/nonreligious) ignore humanity more so than one who believes that our fate is in the hands of a 'mythical' creator?"
 
  • #31
chemisttree said:
I have no idea what Mr. Brooks uses to measure liberal or conservative in his book and I don't think it is important enough to buy it and research it. But if he is accurate, and I'm not saying he is, the real question here is, "Why would a humanist (athiest/nonreligious) ignore humanity more so than one who believes that our fate is in the hands of a 'mythical' creator?"
It is far easier to track money that is given to churches or is funneled through them to charities than it is to assess the impact of people who give money anonymously and/or volunteer their labor or provide professional services at a discount or free to people in need. This issue of "trackability" may be the source of the entire disparity if indeed there is a disparity at all.

My wife and I would be completely transparent to someone like Brooks, no matter what his methods, and since we give anonymously whenever possible, he would have no way of knowing if the money and goods that we donated came from someone with religious beliefs or what our income level is. Suppose my wife stopped at the animal shelter on the way to work and dropped off 100# of dog food and a bunch of cleaning/disinfecting supplies (things these shelters use in great quantities)...how is Brooks going to tally that, especially since the shelter staff doesn't even know who made the donation? If we drop off a couple of hundred dollars worth of canned goods at a food pantry, how is he going to tally that, especially if the food pantry doesn't keep records and name names? There are some gaping holes in his assertions that whole classes of charitable activities can slip through.
 
  • #32
Another interesting question is, given that a portion of the money goes to the maintenance of churches, whether the donations is for that purpose or to help the poor etc.
 
  • #33
Moridin said:
Another interesting question is, given that a portion of the money goes to the maintenance of churches, whether the donations is for that purpose or to help the poor etc.
Having spent some time working in the deep south, I can tell you that one of the "benefits" conferred upon church members is the ability to send their children to all-white "Christian academies". When Bush or other Republicans blather on about the crying need for a school voucher program in which the vouchers can be used for any school, this is the demographic they are targeting. They like to mumble on about inner-city poor kids, but the biggest beneficiaries would be the "Christians" sending their kids to church-affiliated segregated schools.
 
  • #34
chemisttree said:
"Why would a humanist (athiest/nonreligious) ignore humanity more so than one who believes that our fate is in the hands of a 'mythical' creator?"

Are you kidding?

By definition, good Christians devote their lives to helping others. This is about as basic as it gets in Christianity. And there is no devotion like eternal devotion.
 
  • #35
chemisttree said:
The ABC program quotes Arthur Brooks as the source of the 30% disparity in their story.

I have no idea what Mr. Brooks uses to measure liberal or conservative in his book and I don't think it is important enough to buy it and research it. But if he is accurate, and I'm not saying he is, the real question here is, "Why would a humanist (athiest/nonreligious) ignore humanity more so than one who believes that our fate is in the hands of a 'mythical' creator?"

Arthur C. Brooks, huh?

If he is accurate, it will be a first.

Edit:
Mr. Brooks is not at all coming from a moderate or objective point of view. I'm sure he will be getting a lot of air time on Fox News, where they will treat him as one bringing gospel carved into stone tablets.

The tiniest bit of digging reveals that Mr. Brooks finds 40% of the country conservative, and 30% of the country liberal (I guess that leaves 30% "moderate") What brought these lines down on this continuum? A desired outcome is my guess. Say hi to Bill O'Reily for me Mr. Brooks, you're his darling boy.
 
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