Should Physics Curriculum Prioritize Exams or Practical Skills?

[Rika]

Because in the US, people have the freedom to study whatever they want to <mumbles something about the 'pursuit of happiness' as opposed to 'entitled to happiness'>

But not everyone can study at MIT, right? There is a limit in every university, right? So you still can study whatever you want.

While I sometimes honestly curse system in my country (we can't choose subjects) it still has some good points: in my country every physics major include at least 2 c++ courses. So you are forced to learn some plumber skills which isn't that bad.

 

[Andy Resnick]

But not everyone can study at MIT, right? There is a limit in every university, right? So you still can study whatever you want.

I don't understand what you mean. The freedom to study physics does not imply the right to obtain a BS degree from MIT.

 

[Rika]

I don't understand what you mean. The freedom to study physics does not imply the right to obtain a BS degree from MIT.

I don't know about US but here there is always a limit to certain major - only 300 people can get accepted into law every year or 120 can study MechE at certain university. So you can study law or MechE if you get accepted. What I try to say is - if you don't need as much physicists as MechE a limit should be different - let's say 15 people.

 

[Andy Resnick]

I don't know about US but here there is always a limit to certain major - only 300 people can get accepted into law every year or 120 can study MechE at certain university. So you can study law or MechE if you get accepted. What I try to say is - if you don't need as much physicists as MechE a limit should be different - let's say 15 people.

Ok. If I understand you, then there are similar limits in the US- medical school. There may be others (like dentistry? veternarian?) as well.

In the US, once people graduate medical school, they have to undergo a 'residency' program, which is similar in spirit to a post-doc:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residency_(medicine)

There's a finite number of residency slots so in effect, 'match day' limits the number of practicing neurosurgeons, radiologists, urologists, etc.

That has worked spectacularly well in the past- the average quality of US docs is possibly the best average in the world.

But it does raise the question "How many docs should there be?"

The problem is, US Medical Schools grew really fast over the past 15 years due to the doubling of NIH research awards. Many top Medical schools have adopted the business model of education: chase grant dollars, have the students fend for themselves.

So, while much of this thread could be taken as academic (pun possibly intended), we should keep in mind that the choices we are discussing have very real consequences.

 

[Rika]

Ok. If I understand you, then there are similar limits in the US- medical school. There may be others (like dentistry? veternarian?) as well.

In the US, once people graduate medical school, they have to undergo a 'residency' program, which is similar in spirit to a post-doc:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residency_(medicine)

There's a finite number of residency slots so in effect, 'match day' limits the number of practicing neurosurgeons, radiologists, urologists, etc.

It's similar to medicine and law (especially) in my country. Mostly due to the fact that you need not only urologists but also radiologists. It's the same with law. Not everyone can be a judge.

That has worked spectacularly well in the past- the average quality of US docs is possibly the best average in the world.

But it does raise the question "How many docs should there be?"

The problem is, US Medical Schools grew really fast over the past 15 years due to the doubling of NIH research awards. Many top Medical schools have adopted the business model of education: chase grant dollars, have the students fend for themselves.

So, while much of this thread could be taken as academic (pun possibly intended), we should keep in mind that the choices we are discussing have very real consequences.

Still we don't need as much physicists as MDs. No matter what docs are much more needed and they always be. Still there are limits. I don't think that similar limits will hurt when it comes to physics. And there are still open universities. So even if you don't get accepted into BSc physics program you still can study physics in your free time. I believe that being well-educated person who understands the world doesn't come with an university-level knowledge in a specific field.

 

[Count Iblis]

1) European students objected to "requiring quizzes, homework, and attendance, rather than evaluating students solely on big final exams, as too micromanaging and make(ing) university too much like secondary school"

I agree with this objection. I have seen myself how such a system dumbs down students. What happens is that students will tend to focus on all their homeworks assignments. Getting the answer correct is now a priority. Even if you've done so without undestanding everything properly, the best strategy is to move on and finish your other homework assignments.

The assignments one can give also necessarily have to be quite a bit easier compared to optimally chosen practice problems. You can't give any challenging exercises to students as compulsory homework, because students who have mastered everything should be able to get a 100% score.

What also happens is that students will use computer algebra systems like Mathematica to do the computations in their assignments. This is catastrophic for physics students because they used to get most of their math skill training from doing physics problems.

 

[Jake4]

That's interesting- my students say they like the immediate feedback they get from regular homework, it helps them feel more confident that they understand the material. Or it's a warning that they don't understand it as well as they should.

Either way, it's peripheral to any discussion regarding *subject competence*. I'm thinking long-term: how to get the students (mostly non-majors) to understand that physics is a tool they can use, and it's a very useful tool.

I would have to agree. A topic can easily be skimmed, and thought to be understood. Also there is definitely the concept of practice. A lot of different processes in physics and mathematics really stick once done many times over. I used to look at formulas and wonder how anyone could remember any of them, until I started to apply them.

Homework, is great, and is the single best indicator that you are up to speed.

 

[Andy Resnick]

All undergrad students need to understand that they are considered 'clients' or 'customers' of the institution- not just research universities, but nearly every higher education institution.

Tacitly or explicitly, the student is put in charge of their own education- the student has the sole responsibility to learning the material.

So, students- you need to tell the institution what your needs are. For example, this spring the physics majors at CSU lobbied the provost's office not to cut the summer research program. And they were successful!

That's the trade-off. The student is responsible for their own education, so the student needs to communicate his/her needs to the administration CLEARLY and EFFECTIVELY.