Rabbi supports killings in Rafah

[Adam]

A prominent rabbi has supported the killings of Palestinian civilians by Israeli occupation troops in the Gaza Strip, saying killing non-Jewish civilians is compatible with religious laws.

Rabbi Dov Lior, Chairman of the Jewish Rabbinical Council, was quoted as saying "during warfare, killing non-Jewish civilians is permitted if it saves Jewish lives".

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/94812266-7218-4544-9DB2-A8E4D61FFB0E.htm

Well, if the religious books say it's okay...

 

[kat]

Well, if the religious books say it's okay...

Interesting...

Googlel

Your search - "during warfare, killing non-Jewish civilians is permitted if it saves Jewish lives" - did not match any documents.

 

[Adam]

Is there a point to that?

 

[kat]

I was looking for another source, a more reliable source, google has none. Unless you have a source that is more reliable, I don't think this is worth discussing in terms of something "main stream" or prevalent. Israel has a history of locking up it's violent fundamentalist, including those who incite violence. Too bad Palestinians foment them instead of locking them up

 

[Adam]

1) Al Jazeera is mainstream.

2) Search engines generally take some time to gather data, so I suggest you wait a while.

3) Israel does not have a history of locking up its IDF.

4) "Palestinians" do not foment themselves. That is a ridiculous generalisation bordering on pure bigotry.

 

[jcsd]

Al-Jazeera is mainstream, interestingly most of it's journalists used to work for western media companies.

http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/429644.html

http://www.maarivintl.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=article&articleID=7626

Israel doesn't have much of a history of locking up it's fundamnetalists, it has in the past imprisoned Jewish terrorists who have carried out attacks in Isarel, but it has been accused of not doing anything to stop the same terrorist gropuis opertaing in the West Bank. It did ban a ceratin poltical party for it's racist views and terroist views howvere there are still several racist poltical parties that have members in the Knesset, some of them are part of Ariel Sharon's current right-wing coaltion meaning that some MPs in these racist parties hold ministerial postions. It has never locked up it's own fundamntalists for inciting violence alone.

 

[jcsd]

It's also worth noting that this partciular Rabbi would of certainly been part of the supreme Rabbincal council of Israel if the Attorney General of Israel hadn't inetrvened to prevent his election after he suggested it would be a good idea to perform scientifc experiments on Arabs. However no action has been taken to remove him from his senior position as the chairman of the Settler's rabbincal council.

 

[kat]

1) Al Jazeera is mainstream.

You'll have to show me the quote where I said Al Jazeera is not mainstream. Although, I'm not sure the English Al Jazeera can legitimately be called mainstream, it's irrelevant since I did not say anything about IT being/or not being mainstream.

2) Search engines generally take some time to gather data, so I suggest you wait a while.

Perhaps that is the problem, I'll look again soon.

3) Israel does not have a history of locking up its IDF.

We were discussing a rabi or IDF?

4) "Palestinians" do not foment themselves. That is a ridiculous generalisation bordering on pure bigotry.

Please show me the quote where I said anyone was fomenting themselves. I think that's an impossibility unless we are speaking of cloning?

 

[kat]

Thanks JSCD, but I still don't see that quote anywhere else. Nor do the articles you linked to reflect the full gist of Al Jazeera's statements.

 

[jcsd]

Thanks JSCD, but I still don't see that quote anywhere else. Nor do the articles you linked to reflect the full gist of Al Jazeera's statements.

This man has a long track record, for example he praised Baruch Goldsrein's actions at his (Baruch Goldstein's) funeral. Baruch Goldstein if you remember was the fundmanetalist Israeli settler who in 1994 walked into the Cave of the Patriachs in Hebron and massacred 29 Muslim worshippersn during Sabbath paryers, before being beaten to death by the survivors.

This also not the first time he has made such statements.

 

[kat]

This man has a long track record, for example he praised Baruch Goldsrein's actions at his (Baruch Goldstein's) funeral. Baruch Goldstein if you remember was the fundmanetalist Israeli settler who in 1994 walked into the Cave of the Patriachs in Hebron and massacred 29 Muslim worshippersn during Sabbath paryers, before being beaten to death by the survivors.

This also not the first time he has made such statements.

I don't question Lior's warped view, what I questioned was the non-existent "quote" given by an unreliable media source.

 

[jimmy p]

How do these people have any power??

 

[Adam]

I don't question Lior's warped view, what I questioned was the non-existent "quote" given by an unreliable media source.

How/why is Al Jazeera "unreliable"?

 

[pelastration]

kat, do you believe this article is unreliable, made-up or not correct?

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/8147802B-AB86-4407-9A9C-8A4074359563.htm

Israeli forces kill Palestinian child
Saturday 22 May 2004, 12:10 Makka Time, 9:10 GMT

Up to 43 Palestinians have been killed in Rafah in one week

A three-and-a-half-year-old Palestinian girl has been shot dead by Israeli occupation forces in the town of Rafah in the southern Gaza Strip.

Rawan Abu Zaid was shot twice in the head in her home in Rafah's Brazil neighbourhood on Saturday, according to the head of Rafah's main hospital.

The girl's family said she was hit by Israeli army fire as she walked to a shop near her home in the Brazil neighbourhood of the camp.

A total of 43 Palestinians have been killed in Rafah since the start of Israel's Operation Rainbow, launched to round up wanted Palestinian activists and stamp out weapons smuggling under the border with Egypt.

Aljazeera's correspondent reports that Israeli occupation forces and tanks have partially withdrawn from the area. However, they are still positioned in some parts of the town, including near the girl's home.

More than 1000 Palestinians have also been left homeless after the Israeli occupation army demolished more than 100 homes in the area, according to figures released by a United Nations agency.*

The offensive has drawn a hail of international criticism, including a rare rebuke from the United States and censure from the United Nations.

Palestinian medical sources also said an 18-year-old Palestinian died early on Saturday from wounds he received from Israeli gunfire during a raid in Gaza City on 12 May.
*
Husayn al-Lada was seriously wounded during the invasion in the city's al-Zaitun neighbourhood in which nine other Palestinians, including a child, were killed.
*
Also on Saturday, clashes erupted between citizens of Nablus city and Israeli occupation forces when an Israeli special unit raided the city in the early hours of the morning, Aljazeera's correspondent reported.

Israeli forces have also raided Qalqilya city and arrested one Palestinian. This brings to 18 the number of Palestinians detained in the past few days including Hamas activists, the correspondent added. (end quote)

---
A strange formulation seems to be "and censure from the United Nations.".
Maybe it alludes on the amendments US proposed on the initial formulation. Other countries accepted that amendment.

I believe Al Jazeera is a good information source. News is always the result of perception and mixed with some political background. I have no problem that Al Jazeera called the Coalition forces "occupiers", maybe you have. In my idea ALL information is important, and if intellectual honesty is the goal we should stand open to all of them, and not close eyes by prejudice.

Can you give the news-sources you call reliable?

 

[studentx]

Why is there a post about a Rabbi inciting violence, when the palestinian streets are filled with rioting wannabee martyrs hoping to blow up Israeli women and children?

Palestinian terror attacks:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
March 14, 2004 Ashdod 10 killed, 16 wounded Hamas and Fatah Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades Twin suicide bombings at port
February 22, 2004 Jerusalem 8 killed, over 60 wounded Fatah Al Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades Suicide bombing on bus
January 29, 2004 Jerusalem 10 killed, 50 wounded Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Suicide bombing on bus
October 4, 2003 Haifa 19 killed, 60 wounded Islamic Jihad Suicide bombing in restaurant owned by Jews and Arabs
September 9, 2003 Tel Aviv 8 killed, 32 wounded Hamas Suicide bombing at a hitchhiking post for soldiers
September 9, 2003 Jerusalem 7 killed, 50 wounded Hamas Suicide bombing at Cafe Hillel
August 19, 2003 Jerusalem 22 killed, 135 wounded Hamas Suicide bombing on a bus
January 5, 2003 Tel Aviv 23 killed, 108 injured Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Two suicide bombers in an immigrant neighborhood
June 19, 2002 Jerusalem 7 killed, 50 injured Suicide bombing at a bus stop
June 18, 2002 Jerusalem 19 killed, 74 were injured Hamas Suicide bombing on a bus
June 5, 2002 Megiddo 17 killed, 38 injured Islamic Jihad Car bomb next to bus
May 27, 2002 Petah Tikvah 2 killed, 37 injured Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Suicide bomb in shopping mall
May 22, 2002 Rishon Lezion 2 killed, 40 wounded Suicide bomb on pedestrian mall
May 19, 2002 Netanya 3 killed, 59 injured Hamas and the PFLP Suicide bomb in market
May 7, 2002 Rishon Lezion 16 killed, 55 injured Hamas Suicide bomb in pool hall
Apr 12, 2002 Jerusalem 6 killed, 104 injured Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Suicide bomb in Mahane Yehuda market
Apr 10, 2002 Kibbutz Yagur 8 killed, 22 injured Hamas Suicide bombing on bus
March 31, 2002 Haifa 14 Killed, 40 Wounded Hamas Suicide bombing at restaurant
March 29, 2002 Jerusalem 2 killed, 28 Wounded Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Suicide bombing at supermarket in Kiryat Yovel
March 27, 2002 Netanya 22 killed, 140 Wounded Hamas Suicide bombing at Passover seder at Park Hotel
March 21, 2002 Jerusalem 3 killed, 86 Wounded Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Suicide bombing downtown
March 20, 2002 Afula 7 killed, 30 wounded Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Suicide bombing on bus
March 14, 2002 Karni-Netzarim road 3 Killed, 2 Wounded Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Remote Control Mine
March 12, 2002 near Kibbutz Matzuva 6 Killed, 7 Wounded Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Gunmen Ambush Vehicles
March 12, 2002 Kiryat Sefer checkpoint 1 Killed, 1 Wounded Shooting Attack
March 11, 2002 Ashdod 1 Wounded Gunman Opens Fire at Bar Mitzvah
March 10, 2002 Netzarim 1 Killed Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Shooting Attack
March 9, 2002 Jerusalem 11 Killed, 54 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber at Cafe
March 9, 2002 Netanya 2 Killed, 50 Wounded Fatah al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade 2 Gunmen Open Fire on a Promenade
March 7, 2002 Atzmona 5 Killed, 23 Wounded Terrorist Opens Fire and Throws Grenades
March 7, 2002 Ariel >6 Wounded Suicide Bomber in Hotel Lobby
March 5, 2002 Sderot 1 Baby Wounded Kassam Rocket
March 5, 2002 Afula 1 Killed, 10 Wounded Suicide Bomber on Bus
March 5, 2002 Tel Aviv 3 Killed, >35 Wounded Gunman Opens Fire at Restaurants
March 5, 2002 outside Bethlehem 1 Killed, 1 Wounded Gunman Ambushes Vehicle
March 2, 2002 Jerusalem 10 Killed, >50 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Suicide Bomber outside Synagogue
February 27, 2002 West Bank 3 Wounded Fatah Female Suicide Bomber
February 25, 2002 Jerusalem 1 Killed, 8 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Gunman Opens Fire at a Bus Stop
February 25, 2002 Gush Etzion 1 Killed, 1 Pregnant Woman Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Gunmen Open Fire on a Car
February 22, 2002 Efrat 1 Wounded Suicide Bomber in Supermarket
February 22, 2002 North of Jerusalem 1 Killed Fatah Drive-by Shooting
February 19, 2002 En Arik 6 Killed, 1 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Gunmen Open Fire at Soldiers
February 18, 2002 Gush Katif 3 Killed, 4 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Gunfire and Bombs at Cars
February 18, 2002 near Jerusalem 1 Killed, 1 Injured Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Car Bomb
February 16, 2002 Karnei Shomron 2 Killed, 27 Wounded Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine Suicide Bomber at Crowded Shopping Mall
February 14, 2002 Gaza 3 Killed, 4 Wounded Mine Placed Under Tank
February 10, 2002 Be'er Sheva 2 Killed, 4 Wounded Hamas Drive-by Shooting
February 8, 2002 Jerusalem 1 Killed 4 Teenagers with Knives
February 6, 2002 Moshav Hamra 2 Killed, 5 Wounded Hamas Gunmen Infiltrates Moshav
January 30, 2002 Taiba 2 Wounded Fatah Suicide Bomber
January 27, 2002 Jerusalem 1 Killed, >150 Wounded Fatah Female Suicide Bomber
January 25, 2002 Tel Aviv 24 Wounded Islamic Jihad Suicide Bomber at Crowded Pedestrian Shopping Mall
January 22, 2002 Jerusalem 2 Killed, 40 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Guman Opens Fire on Crowd

 

[studentx]

January 17, 2002 Hadera 6 Killed, 35 Wounded Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade Gunman Opens Fire at Bat Mitzvah Celebration
January 15, 2002 Beit Jala 1 Killed Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade American Kidnapped and Murdered
January 9, 2002 Kerem Shalom 4 Killed, 2 Wounded Hamas Gunfire and Expolsives
December 12, 2001 Emmanuel 10 Killed, 30 Wounded Fatah & Hamas Bomb and Gunfire Attack on Bus
December 9, 2001 Haifa 31 Wounded Suicide Bomber
December 2, 2001 Haifa 15 Killed, 46 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber on Bus
December 1, 2001 Jerusalem 10 Killed, >188 Wounded Hamas 2 Suicide Bombers and a Car Bomb in a Pedestrian Mall
November 29, 2001 near Hadera 3 Killed, 9 Wounded Islamic Jihad & Fatah Suicide Bomber on Bus
November, 27, 2001 Afula 2 Killed, Dozens Wounded Islamic Jihad & Fatah Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade 2 Gunmen Opened Fire on Crowd near the Central Bus Station
November, 27, 2001 Gush Katif 1 Killed, 3 Wounded Hamas Grenades and Gunfire
November 26, 2001 Erez Checkpoint 2 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber
November 24, 2001 Kfar Darom 1 Killed Hamas Morter Shell Landed on a Soccer Field
November 4, 2001 Jerusalem 2 Killed, >50 Wounded Islamic Jihad Gunman
October 28, 2001 Hadera 4 Killed, 40 Wounded Gunman
October 28, 2001 near Kibbutz Metzer 1 Killed Tanzim Drive-By Shooting
October 17, 2001 Jerusalem Israeli Tourism Minister Rehavam Ze'evi Assasinated Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine Gunmen in Hotel
October 7, 2001 Beit She'an Valley 1 Killed Suicide Bomber
October 4, 2001 Afula 3 Killed, 16 Wounded Gunman Opens Fire on Crowd
October 1, 2001 Jerusalem Several Wounded Car Bomb
September 9, 2001 Nahariya 3 Killed, 90 Wounded Hamas 1st Israeli-Arab Suicide Bomber, at Train Station
September 9, 2001 West Bank 2 Killed, 4 Wounded Gunmen
September 4, 2001 Jerusalem 20 Wounded Suicide Bomber disguised as Orthodox Jew
September 3, 2001 Jerusalem 3 Wounded Series of Car Bombs
August 12, 2001 Kiryat Motzkin 21 Wounded Islamic Jihad Suicide Bomber at Cafe
August 9, 2001 Jerusalem 15 Killed, >130 Wounded Islamic Jihad & Hamas Suicide Bomber at Pizzaria
July 16, 2001 Binyamina 2 Killed, 11 Wounded Islamic Jihad Suicide Bomber at Bus Stop
June 22, 2001 Dugit 2 Killed Hamas Suicide Bomber
June 1, 2001 Tel Aviv 21 Killed, 120 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber at Disco
May 30, 2001 Netanya 8 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb outside School
May 27, 2001 Jerusalem 30 Wounded Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine & Islamic Jihad 2 Car Bombs
May 25, 2001 Hadera 65 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb
May 18, 2001 Netanya 5 Killed, >100 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber at Mall
May 9, 2001 Tekoa 2 Killed Islamic Jihad Two 14 year-old Boys Beaten and Stoned to Death, found dismembered in a Cave
April 23, 2001 Or Yehuda 8 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb in Outdoor Market
April 22, 2001 Kfar Saba 1 Killed, 60 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber at Bus Stop
March 28, 2001 near Kfar Saba 2 Killed, 4 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber at School Bus Stop
March 27, 2001 Jerusalem 7 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb
March 27, 2001 Jerusalem 28 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber
March 26, 2001 Hevron 10-Month Old Infant Shalhevet Pass Killed Sniper from Abu Sneineh
March 4, 2001 Netanya 3 Killed, >65 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber
February 14, 2001 Azor 8 Killed, 21 Wounded Hamas Bus Driver Plows into Crowd
January 23, 2001 Tulkarem 2 Killed Hamas Gunmen Kidnap and Shoot 2 Israelis
January 1, 2001 Netanya >50 Wounded Hamas Car Bomb
December 22, 2000 Jordan Valley >3 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber
November 22, 2000 Hadera 2 Killed, 55 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb next to Bus
November 20, 2000 Kfar Darom 2 Killed, 9 Wounded School Bus Bombed
November 2, 2000 Jerusalem 2 Killed, 10 Wounded Islamic Jihad Car Bomb in outdoor Market
October 26, 2000 Gaza 1 Wounded Islamic Jihad Youth Suicide Bomber on Bike
November 7, 1999 Netanya 27 Wounded Hamas 3 Pipe Bombs
August 10, 1999 Nahshon Junction 6 Wounded Hamas Car Plows into Crowd (Twice)
November 6, 1998 Jerusalem 2 Killed, 20 Wounded Islamic Jihad 2 Suicide Bombers
October 29, 1998 Gush Katif 1 Killed, 8 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber Attacks School Bus
October 19, 1998 Be'er Sheva 59 Wounded Hamas Grenades Thrown at Central Bus Station
October 11, 1998 Hevron 18 Wounded Hamas 2 Grenades Injure Palestinians and Israelis
August 27, 1998 Tel-Aviv 14 Wounded Hamas Bomb In Dumpster
August 20, 1998 Tel Rumeiyda Rabbi Killed Hamas Fire Bomb & Stabbing
September 4, 1997 Jerusalem 4 Killed, 181 Wounded Hamas 3 Suicide Bombers at Pedestrian Mall
July 30, 1997 Jerusalem 15 Killed, 178 Wounded Hamas 2 Suicide Bombers at Outdoor Market
March 21, 1997 Tel-Aviv 3 Killed, 48 Wounded Hamas Bomb at Restaurant
March 4, 1996 Tel Aviv 20 Killed, 75 Wounded Islamic Jihad Suicide Bomber at Mall
March 3, 1996 Jerusalem 19 Killed, 6 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber on Bus
February 25, 1996 Ashkelon 2 Killed Hamas Suicide Bomber at Bus Stop
February 25, 1996 Jerusalem 26 Killed, 80 Wounded Hamas 2 Suicide Bombers on Bus
July 24, 1995 Ramat Gan 6 Killed, 31 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber on Bus
June 25, 1995 Neve Dekalim 3 Wounded Islamic Jihad Explosives-ladden Cart
April 9, 1995 Gaza 8 Killed, 50 Wounded Hamas & Islamic Jihad 2 Suicide Bombers
January 22, 1995 Beit Lid Junction 21 Killed, 69 Wounded Islamic Jihad 2 Suicide Bombers at Bus Stop
December 25, 1994 Jerusalem 13 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber at Bus Stop
November 11, 1994 Netzarim Junction 3 Killed, 6 Wounded Islamic Jihad Suicide Bomber on Bike
October 19, 1994 Tel Aviv 22 Killed, 56 Wounded Hamas Suicide Bomber on Bus
October 9, 1994 Jerusalem 2 Killed, 14 Wounded Hamas 2 Gunmen Open Fire
April 13, 1994 Hadera 5 Killed Hamas Suicide Bomber
April 6, 1994 Afula 8 Killed Hamas Car Bomb next to Bus
----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Adam]

Note that studentx gets his figures from US-Israel.org...

From Human Rights Watch:

The clashes between Israelis and Palestinians since October 2000 have been marked by systematic violations of international human rights and humanitarian law. Civilians have been the main victims of the violence, and an immediate priority must be to bring such violations to an end. At least 470 Palestinians have been killed, most of them unlawfully by Israeli security forces when their lives and the lives of others were not in danger. More than 120 Israelis have been killed, most of them civilians deliberately targeted by armed groups and individuals. The death toll includes more than 130 children.

http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/07/isr-0706-ltr.htm

From Amnesty International:

At least 1,000 Palestinians were killed by the Israeli army, most of them unlawfully. They included some 150 children and at least 35 individuals killed in targeted assassinations. Palestinian armed groups killed more than 420 Israelis, at least 265 of them civilians and including 47 children, and some 20 foreign nationals, in targeted or indiscriminate attacks. Prolonged closures and curfews were imposed throughout the Occupied Territories and more than 2,000 homes were destroyed. Thousands of Palestinians were arrested. Most were released without charge, but more than 3,000 remained in military jails. More than 1,900 were held in administrative detention without charge or trial, and some 5,000 were charged with security offences, including involvement in attacks against Israelis. More than 3,800 were tried before military courts in trials that did not meet international standards. Ill-treatment of Palestinian detainees was widespread. Israeli soldiers used Palestinians as "human shields" during military operations. Certain abuses committed by the Israeli army constituted war crimes. These included unlawful killings, obstruction of medical assistance and targeting of medical personnel, extensive and wanton destruction of property, torture and cruel and inhuman treatment, unlawful confinement and the use of "human shields". The deliberate targeting of civilians by Palestinian armed groups constituted crimes against humanity. At least 158 Israeli conscientious objectors and reservists who refused to serve in the Occupied Territories were imprisoned. Several Israeli soldiers and settlers were arrested on charges of selling weapons and munitions to armed Palestinian groups, and four Israeli settlers were arrested and charged with attempting to bomb a Palestinian school.

http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/isr-summary-eng

Please feel free to read the entire report.