Political orientation correlates with brain differences

[apeiron]

Very amusing. Left wingers have thicker anterior cingulate while right wingers have more pronounced right amygdalas.

The mischievous could argue this is about brains tuned for handling task complexity and brains sensitised to fearful threat.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/today/tomfielden/

The obvious answer was to take a look at the brains of two MP's with diametrically opposing views - step forward Thatcherite Conservative Alan Duncan, and Labour stalwart Stephen Pound, who agreed to undergo a structural brain scan using Magnetic Resonance Imaging, or MRI.

The MP's were put through their paces by professor Geraint Rees at UCL's Institute of Cognitive Neuroscience earlier this month.

Obviously a study with just two subjects - however different their perspectives might be - was not a big enough sample to produce a statistically significant conclusion, so professor Rees expanded the study to include a pool of students and post-docs previously scanned at the Institute in other, unrelated, experiments.

This larger cohort was asked to fill in a questionaire assessing their political values, and their answers (along with those from Alan Duncan and Stephen Pound) were compared with earlier structural brain scans.

The results showed a strong correlation between between political belief and two specific regions of the brain. The grey matter of the anterior cingulate was significantly thicker amongst those who described themselves as liberal, or left wing, while the amygdala - an area associated with emotional processing - was larger in those who regarded themselves as conservative or right wing.

 

[drankin]

This study suggests that liberals are more emotionally motivated. I don't need to see someones brain scan to know this. :)

 

[NeoDevin]

This study suggests that liberals are more emotionally motivated. I don't need to see someones brain scan to know this. :)

Don't know how you got that from the quoted bit, it seems to say the opposite:

while the amygdala - an area associated with emotional processing - was larger in those who regarded themselves as conservative or right wing.

 

[nismaratwork]

It's more than a bit thin, but if it were the case I wouldn't exactly be shocked. Being emotional, fearful, inquisitive, conservative... these are present in some ways from birth in humans, so while there's certainly a nurture factor, there's clearly a nature one too. The concept of "left wing" and "right wing", are marketing lingo for products (ideologies, parties, candidates...) which have become highly tailored to a small percentage of the public which votes. You're going to be appealing to passions and temperaments in this kind of marketing, so I'm not sure what this says about the adherents of a given ideology. What does the politically disinterested, libertarian, or truly independent brain look like? Is this just a function of what you worry about, or is it temperament being at the core of political ideology?

Being left with this kind of uncertainty makes me even less pleased with the scope and construction of the study when compared to the conclusions.

 

[CAC1001]

IMO, the study is probably nonsense, because the subject is too complex. Plenty of "liberals" are dumb as a box of rocks and only "liberal" because they don't know anything else; other ones are plenty smart and liberal because they have studied the subjects in-depth, well-aware of all the conservative arguments, but find that they arrive at the liberal end.

Same with conservatives. Plenty are dumb as a box of rocks, only conservative because they don't know anything else, while others are very educated, well-aware of all the liberal arguments, but find that they are "conservative."

Generally, I find people with little policy knowledge are easily-swayed into being either far Left or far Right, and usually fall into the Michael Moore and Ron Paul crowds.

 

[nismaratwork]

IMO, the study is probably nonsense, because the subject is too complex. Plenty of "liberals" are dumb as a box of rocks and only "liberal" because they don't know anything else; other ones are plenty smart and liberal because they have studied the subjects in-depth, well-aware of all the conservative arguments, but find that they arrive at the liberal end.

Same with conservatives. Plenty are dumb as a box of rocks, only conservative because they don't know anything else, while others are very educated, well-aware of all the liberal arguments, but find that they are "conservative."

Generally, I find people with little policy knowledge are easily-swayed into being either far Left or far Right, and usually fall into the Michael Moore and Ron Paul crowds.

This study isn't about intelligence... so except for your opening sentence (which I agree with btw) your post makes no sense.

 

[apeiron]

Being left with this kind of uncertainty makes me even less pleased with the scope and construction of the study when compared to the conclusions.

It is just a bit of fun at the moment. This should be apparent from the fact that if the finding had been reversed, it would still have been possible to argue a cod neuroscience interpretation to accord with whatever is your prejudice.

So if leftie was big amydala, and rightie was thick anterior cingulate, then the story could become that lefty are more emotionally aware of their fellow man, the righty more narrowly focused on endogenous planning, less empathetic to the world.

Having said that, it will be interesting to see how this initial finding gets followed up.

I'd like to see a four way study that compares for social~individual values and also liberal~authoritarian.

 

[DanP]

Very amusing. Left wingers have thicker anterior cingulate while right wingers have more pronounced right amygdalas.

The mischievous could argue this is about brains tuned for handling task complexity and brains sensitised to fearful threat.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/today/tomfielden/

This is interesting. There exist for years speculation in psychology that genetics / epi-genetics play a role in the political orientation.

I heard Steven Pinker commenting that this little rhyme got it the right way:

I often think it's comical
How Nature always does contrive
That every boy and every gal
That’s born into the world alive
Is either a little Liberal
Or else a little Conservative!

 

[drankin]

Don't know how you got that from the quoted bit, it seems to say the opposite:

Doh! New Years Resolution, improve reading comprehension.

Hey, if this study has any validity all we have to do is give people brain scans and TELL them what their political view is. Can't argue with the differences in the size of your anterior cingulate and amygdala are.

 

[WhoWee]

It would explain why hard Left and hard Right people never accept an opposing view as valid.

 

[CAC1001]

This study isn't about intelligence... so except for your opening sentence (which I agree with btw) your post makes no sense.

The study claims people to the right are driven more by emotions. I was saying I do not think that such a study can really be accurate, because some people, on both the Left and Right, are driven by emotions and not much by knowledge, while other people are driven very much by knowledge as opposed to emotions.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

What does it mean when one leans right, then left, then rejects both extremes and registers as an Independent?

That would be me. While I was never really a lefty, I became an anti-righty because of the people in power.

If anything, I would expect to find a marker for ideologues of any brand. It does seem like extremists on both ends of the spectrum are simply irrational and driven purely by beliefs.

Wasn't there a study showing that one's preference for either Coke, or Pepsi, can be seen using FMRI or PET?

Edit: I should note that events of the last few years have driven me to left-leaning solutions for a number of problems. The financial collapse has certainly caused me to reconsider free market principles and their potential for calamity. My personal views relating to health care reform are based on 30 years of close association with the medical field, including almost seven years of personal work experience in that field, and a ~ seven-year health crisis nightmare that my family endured. This has nothing to do with ideology.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Ah, this must have been it.

Coke versus Pepsi: It's all in the head
The preference for Coke versus Pepsi is not only a matter for the tongue to decide, Samuel McClure and his colleagues have found. Brain scans of people tasting the soft drinks reveal that knowing which drink they're tasting affects their preference and activates memory-related brain regions that recall cultural influences. Thus, say the researchers, they have shown neurologically how a culturally based brand image influences a behavioral choice.
These choices are affected by perception, wrote the researchers, because "there are visual images and marketing messages that have insinuated themselves into the nervous systems of humans that consume the drinks." ...

http://www.hnl.bcm.tmc.edu/cache/eurekalert.org.htm

 

[CAC1001]

What does it mean when one is leans right, then left, then rejects both extremes and registers as an Independent?

That would be me. While I was never really a lefty, I became an anti-righty because of the people in power.

If anything, I would expect to find a marker for ideologues of any brand. It does seem like extremists on both ends of the spectrum are simply irrational and driven purely by beliefs.

Wasn't there a study showing that one's preference for either Coke, or Pepsi, can be seen using FMRI or PET?

I drink both Coke and Pepsi equally

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I drink both Coke and Pepsi equally

I drink Dr. Pepper. :rofl:

 

[nismaratwork]

I drink Dr. Pepper. :rofl:

Next to a good lemon-lime soda or a "fancy" rootbeer (ginger, birch, etc)... Dr. Pepper is goooood. On a hot day, it becomes nearly orgasmic, whereas I like Coke and Pepsi, I recognize that they taste mostly like battery acid.

Personally, I like a nice ginger beer if given a choice, but they don't come with the caffeine boost a delicious Dr. P does...

...Oh... and southerners will instinctively accept you once offered Dr. Pepper.

 

[WhoWee]

If anything, I would expect to find a marker for ideologues of any brand. It does seem like extremists on both ends of the spectrum are simply irrational and driven purely by beliefs.

Extreme being the key word - if a marker could be established.

 

[Proton Soup]

Next to a good lemon-lime soda or a "fancy" rootbeer (ginger, birch, etc)... Dr. Pepper is goooood. On a hot day, it becomes nearly orgasmic, whereas I like Coke and Pepsi, I recognize that they taste mostly like battery acid.

Personally, I like a nice ginger beer if given a choice, but they don't come with the caffeine boost a delicious Dr. P does...

...Oh... and southerners will instinctively accept you once offered Dr. Pepper.

hmm... when in high school, i would get a Dr P at the quikmart in the morning on the way to school, drink half, and let it boil in the sun for an after-school hot tea.

but, i think Coke and Mt Dew are a little more common here.

 

[Al68]

Very amusing. Left wingers have thicker anterior cingulate while right wingers have more pronounced right amygdalas.

The mischievous could argue this is about brains tuned for handling task complexity and brains sensitised to fearful threat.]

There's also the chicken/egg argument about which causes which, and whether "larger" really means "more dominant", but it's long been known that different parts of different peoples' brains are more dominant irrespective of physical size. Left brain/right brain dominance has nothing to do with physical size, for example.

But if a larger right amygdala really does mean more sensitive to "fearful threat", then its size would more logically differentiate between libertarian and authoritarian than between "conservative" and "liberal" as the terms are normally used. And the terms "liberal" and "conservative" are themselves used differently in the UK than in the U.S., particularly with economic issues.

And how one "self-identifies" isn't necessarily indicative of their actual ideology, as has been seem in this forum.

Interesting subject, but this particular study doesn't do it much justice, IMO.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

And how one "self-identifies" isn't necessarily indicative of their actual ideology, as has been seem in this forum.

Most people think they're a moderate regardless of voting patterns.

 

[nismaratwork]

There's also the chicken/egg argument about which causes which, and whether "larger" really means "more dominant", but it's long been known that different parts of different peoples' brains are more dominant irrespective of physical size. Left brain/right brain dominance has nothing to do with physical size, for example.<snip>

I would add that the brain can undergo a number of real physical changes which may be the result of genetics, OR, it may be a function of 'use'. Beyond that, I agree with the rest as well, but apeiron has made it clear this was just a bit of fun.

Ivan: Yep, people live in a constant state of delusion... the one you describe is a minor addition to the payload.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Ivan: Yep, people live in a constant state of delusion... the one you describe is a minor addition to the payload.

I would count it as more than minor in the political arena. When one is all the way to the right, everything else is left, and visa versa. There is no balance. Consequently, there is no tolerance or understanding.

This is especially amusing to me as my friends on the right accuse me of being a lefty, and my friends on the left accuse me of being a righty. One lefty actually refers to Afghanistan as MY war.

 

[DanP]

This is especially amusing to me as my friends on the right accuse me of being a lefty, and my friends on the left accuse me of being a righty. One lefty actually refers to Afghanistan as MY war.

That's pretty much similar to hostile media bias, and won't change anytime soon

P.S How goes your war, Warlord ?

 

[nismaratwork]

I would count it as more than minor in the political arena. When one is all the way to the right, everything else is left, and visa versa. There is no balance. Consequently, there is no tolerance or understanding.

This is especially amusing to me as my friends on the right accuse me of being a lefty, and my friends on the left accuse me of being a righty. One lefty actually refers to Afghanistan as MY war.

*In an old, gravelly voice with a thick Chinese accent& Sir... with all due respect... in some cultures it is the clash of these opposing forces which drives the universe! Yes indeed, yin and yang oppose, and in doing so, there is completion. Ommmmmm..

*normal voice* Yeah, I know, but it's tough to be driven by something other than a political ideology... you seem most driven by compassion. I don't see that it makes you liberal or conservative, but it certainly makes you LESS compatible with republican ideology... and of course, democratic ideology too. As for anyone assigning this war to a single person, we only ever have one commander in chief, but this is our COUNTRY'S war. It always is... regardless of who's in office driving us forward, we all pay, and we all take some responsibility.

 

[Alex_Sanders]

Left wingers have thicker anterior cingulate while right wingers have more pronounced right amygdalas.

I'm lost.

So which one of them is smarter?:tongue2:

 

[nismaratwork]

I'm lost.

So which one of them is smarter?:tongue2:

Simple: the one with the bigger di**.

 

[mugaliens]

Waitaminute...

You folks are making conclusions based on just two points of datum?

Oh! "...professor Rees expanded the study to include a pool of students and post-docs previously scanned at the Institute in other, unrelated, experiments..."

What about those of us who partially identify with some tenets of the left, some tenets of the right, and some tenets of neither party? Does that mean my antierior cingulate and amygdala are both smaller?

Or...

...perhaps both are more fully developed...

...and the party system of the U.S. is outdated, and best left in the historical annuls of our species...

Muhahahahahahaha...

 

[nismaratwork]

Waitaminute...

You folks are making conclusions based on just two points of datum?

Oh! "...professor Rees expanded the study to include a pool of students and post-docs previously scanned at the Institute in other, unrelated, experiments..."

What about those of us who partially identify with some tenets of the left, some tenets of the right, and some tenets of neither party? Does that mean my antierior cingulate and amygdala are both smaller?

Or...

...perhaps both are more fully developed...

...and the party system of the U.S. is outdated, and best left in the historical annuls of our species...

Muhahahahahahaha...

I think the simple answer is that I have a super-brain, where my cerebral cortex is so densely packed, it's on the verge of becoming degenerate matter. Yep, that has to be it!

 

[Al68]

I think the simple answer is that I have a super-brain, where my cerebral cortex is so densely packed...

The question is: packed with what?

 

[nismaratwork]

The question is: packed with what?

Uber-neurons. They're twice as fast as the leading brand!

 

[drankin]

Come on now, everyone knows that size doesn't matter.

 

[nismaratwork]

Come on now, everyone knows that size doesn't matter.

...
...
...

*waits for PF sisterhood to chime in*.


OK, well, that's why I specified density and speed. Everyone knows that women LOVE a guy who can look her in the eye and confidently say, "I last one, maybe two picoseconds... for you, three."

Of course, this is all the reason why I specified a greater density in the CC and speed for my neurons. I don't want large, corpulent neurons which become lazy and demand turkey legs just to fire!

 

[mugaliens]

I think the simple answer is that I have a super-brain, where my cerebral cortex is so densely packed, it's on the verge of becoming degenerate matter. Yep, that has to be it!

I will no longer be offended when people say I'm dense. Thank you for that, nismaratwork.

 

[nismaratwork]

I will no longer be offended when people say I'm dense. Thank you for that, nismaratwork.

Indeed, while size is NOT correlated with intelligence, the density of the cerebral cortex is a good indicator in mammals. Not perfect... after all, we could fill pages debating what it means to be intelligent, but certainly you want a nice, heavy... DENSE... brain.

Brains: The pound cake of the organ world.

 

[Galteeth]

Are political beliefs hard wired? What a poorly phrased question. It seems to imply that these brain differences were genetically based. Of course political beliefs are "caused" by the brain. As if every other thought and belief.
How well controlled was this study? Maybe the "liberals" were more likely to be pot smokers (which would probably affect their amygdala.)

What does "left wing" and "right wing" even mean? Am I left wing or right wing?

I see this a lot in psychology/neuro-sci articles; very speculative "conclusions" based on some observations, poorly designed studies, and a whole lot of conjecture/arbitrary definition of terms.