Does Alcohol Really Kill Brain Cells?

[zoobyshoe]

There's a common belief that every glass of alcohol you drink kills a certain number of brain cells.

This is a myth I thought I'd clear up here, one that results from a severe condition sometimes seen in chronic alcoholics called Wernicke-Korsakov's Syndrome.

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/wernicke_korsakoff/wernicke-korsakoff.htm

Symptoms include amnesia, confabulation, attention deficit, disorientation, and vision impairment. The main features of Korsakoff's amnesic syndrome are the impairments in acquiring new information or establishing new memories, and in retrieving previous memories. Although Wernicke's and Korsakoff's may appear to be two different disorders, they are generally considered to be different stages of the same disorder, which is called Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome. Wernicke's encephalopathy represents the "acute" phase of the disorder, and Korsakoff's amnesic syndrome represents the "chronic" phase.

The alcohol, itself, is not killing any neurons. The problem is that chronic drinking causes malabsorption of thiamine, coupled with the fact that many chronic alcoholics eat erratically and poorly. It is thiamine (vitamin B-1) deficiency that causes the neurological problems, not the consumption of alcohol itself. Alcohol doesn't kill brain cells.

 

[Evo]

So my propensity to imbibe exorbitant amounts of alcohol is not the cause of my confabulations.

 

[zoobyshoe]

So my propensity to imbibe exorbitant amounts of alcohol is not the cause of my confabulations.

Your confabulations are the direct result of the exorbitant amounts of alcohol you imbibe. But all those gallons of alcohol you drink every week aren't directly killing brain cells. Your prolonged alcohol abuse, however, coupled with poor nutritional habits, is causing a thiamine deficiency, which in turn damages parts of the brain:

These symptoms are caused by damage to mammillary bodies and other brain regions due to deficiency of thiamine (Vitamin B1). This is most often caused by chronic alcoholism, though other conditions including severe malnutrition have been known to cause it. When Wernicke's encephalopathy accompanies Korsakoff's syndrome, the combined syndrome is called the Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korsakoff's_syndrome

And this, in turn, is causing your confabulations.

My point in posting this is to straighten out the misinformation about alcohol frequently repeated by pot smokers. They seem to believe that any amount of alcohol you drink kills a certain number of neurons. The picture they paint is of alcohol getting into the brain through the bloodstream and physically poisoning and destroying neurons. By this erroneous logic, every beer or glass of wine a person has contributes to a growing neuronal deficit. That, however, is really not the case.

 

[Pythagorean]

I chemist or biologist (he worked at a marine research center) once told me that a drink or two a day is good for you, especially if its whine, but a nutritional beer is good too. Lots of friends homebrew around here.

 

[Math Is Hard]

I chemist or biologist (he worked at a marine research center) once told me that a drink or two a day is good for you, especially if its whine, but a nutritional beer is good too. Lots of friends homebrew around here.

We are doing some research at my university about the effects of whine on brain cells. We are currently recruiting parents of teenagers for the study.

 

[zoobyshoe]

We are doing some research at my university about the effects of whine on brain cells. We are currently recruiting parents of teenagers for the study.

Yes, no one should take what I posted as an argument that whine is good for you. The alleged therapeutic benefits of a good whine are apparently still being studied.

 

[Pythagorean]

Yes, no one should take what I posted as an argument that whine is good for you. The alleged therapeutic benefits of a good whine are apparently still being studied.

he gave two reasons. One is in the realm of study, the other's a bit more subjective.

1) it increases blood flow and stimulates your circulatory system.

2) it's 'uplifting to the spirit' by which I think he meant psycholgically pleasing (assuming you don't drink too much)

edit: oh my, how embarassing, I just realized you've gone and carried my mispelling to a whole new level and I played right into it. Good show, chaps.

 

[Evo]

It's commonly believed that the detrimental effects of whine can be significantly reduced by the consumption of wine.

Zoob, what you posted is very interesting. (getting back on topic)

 

[zoobyshoe]

It's commonly believed that the detrimental effects of whine can be significantly reduced by the consumption of wine.

We often hear winos whine this, yes.

Zoob, what you posted is very interesting. (getting back on topic)

Yes, here's another, more detailed, rundown:

Heavy drinkers often eat poorly, and the metabolism of alcohol depletes the body’s stores of ‘B’ vitamins. This can lead to a severe deficiency of vitamin B1 (thiamine), causing Wernicke-Korsakov Syndrome. In the Wernicke’s phase of this syndrome, patients become drowsy and unresponsive, and their walking and eye movements become uncoordinated. Wernicke’s is a medical emergency, requiring prompt administration of intravenous thiamine. If not treated in time, patients develop Korsakov’s, exhibiting marked impairment of short term memory. Patients with Korsakov’s may not remember an event that occurred ten minutes earlier; to mask their confusion and make sense of their lives, they sometimes fabricate events (‘confabulation’). Patients with Korsakov’s rarely recover, and frequently require long term care.

http://korcare.co.uk/medical.html

 

[Evo]

Yes, here's another, more detailed, rundown:



http://korcare.co.uk/medical.html

Oh no...that's me!



Oh no, that's me!

 

[zoobyshoe]

Oh no...that's me!

Take some vitamin B-1. (I'll remind you in ten minutes.)

 

[zoobyshoe]

Hmmm. This site, with a different spelling of the man's name, has an even better breakdown:

One of the main reasons that alcoholism leads to thiamine deficiency has to do with the high-calorie nature of alcohol. A person with a large alcohol intake often, in essence, substitutes alcohol for other, more nutritive calorie sources. Food intake drops off considerably, and multiple vitamin deficiencies develop. Furthermore, it is believed that alcohol increases the body's requirements for B vitamins, at the same time interfering with the absorption of thiamine from the intestine and impairing the body's ability to store and use thiamine.

The next sentence, though, to my dismay, ressurects the spectre of the idea I'm trying to squelch:

Direct neurotoxic (poisonous damage to the nerves) effects of alcohol may also play some role.

Let it be noted it only says "may".

Anyway, it continues:

Thiamine is involved in a variety of reactions which provide energy to the neurons (nerve cells) of the brain. When thiamine is unavailable, these reactions cannot be carried out, and the important end-products of the reactions are not produced. Furthermore, certain other substances begin to accumulate, and are thought to cause damage to the vulnerable neurons. The area of the brain believed to be responsible for the symptoms of Korsakoff's syndrome is called the diencephalon, specifically the structures called the mamillary bodies and the thalamus.

http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/korsakoffs_syndrome.jsp

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edit to note: This is my 3000th post!

 

[zoobyshoe]

Oh no...that's me!

Take some vitamin B-1.

 

[turbo]

Evo! Take B1! Remember the Lancer if you need a memory-hook when you get to the drug store.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-1_Lancer

 

[larkspur]

Is there enough B-1 in a multi-vitamin or do you need additional supplements of B vitamins?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Is there enough B-1 in a multi-vitamin or do you need additional supplements of B vitamins?

From the link in post #9 above:

Wernicke’s is a medical emergency, requiring prompt administration of intravenous thiamine.

 

[selfAdjoint]

From the link in post #9 above:

Wernicke’s is a medical emergency, requiring prompt administration of intravenous thiamine.

I think Larkspur was asking about normal daily intake, rather emergency remediation. The answer to that question is that a normal diet should provide the B1 you need, but a B-supplement, if it makes you feel better, couldn't hurt.

 

[larkspur]

I think Larkspur was asking about normal daily intake, rather emergency remediation. The answer to that question is that a normal diet should provide the B1 you need, but a B-supplement, if it makes you feel better, couldn't hurt.

That is what I was referring to. A chronic alcoholic does not have a normal diet so I was wondering if they took a daily multi-vitamin, would that be enough to prevent a thiamine deficiency or would the alchohol prevent absorption of that also.

 

[QuantumKing]

So, alcohol doesn't kill brain cells, but what about other drugs, such as marijuana? I've heard a lot of myths coming from two different angles, one being that it does in fact kill brain cells, and another that it improves creativity and cognitive ability.

Which one is true? Or are they both wrong?

I've smoked marijuana for a pretty long period of time, before I decided to quit. The effect that it was having on me was a feeling of being "burnt out", I was slower to react, lazy, the classical stoner. Is that from having a certain chronic use of the drug? If its used casually, would it have the same effect, as you have been posting about alcohol?

 

[zoobyshoe]

That is what I was referring to. A chronic alcoholic does not have a normal diet so I was wondering if they took a daily multi-vitamin, would that be enough to prevent a thiamine deficiency or would the alchohol prevent absorption of that also.

I haven't read anything on this subject but knowing of people who get drunk every day for years without developing Wernicke-Korsakov's, I think that maintaining a normal diet is enough to prevent it from developing. Such people may always be lower in thiamine than is best for them but don't get depleted enough for long enough to develop this syndrome.

 

[Moonbear]

Alcohol consumption doesn't kill neurons, but it can prevent them from proliferating (for those who are not yet aware of it, it's also a myth that adults have all the neurons they'll ever have an only stand to lose them).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...uids=16938627&query_hl=10&itool=pubmed_docsum

It's also important to recognize that the effects of alcohol on adults are different than during development. Not just the number of neurons are affected, but the shapes and types of "connections" they can form with other neurons.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...uids=16978724&query_hl=10&itool=pubmed_docsum

 

[Pythagorean]

So, alcohol doesn't kill brain cells, but what about other drugs, such as marijuana? I've heard a lot of myths coming from two different angles, one being that it does in fact kill brain cells, and another that it improves creativity and cognitive ability.

As I recall, because we have THC receptors in our body, there's speculation (as with most receptors) that it actually serves a purpose in trace amounts and that our body or brain produces it in this mintes amounts.

THC dwells in fat cells, like those in your brain, because it's THC soluble. It doesn't actually kill the brain cells, it blocks information as it's getting transmitted. There's lots of speculation, but here's a couple theories I've heard:

1) Our brains are massive parallel processors, and we have a 'psycholgical health'. Some biology majors on campus claim the purpose of the trace THC in our body is to keep us sane and allow us to forgot things that aren't important to our conscience. Of course, when you rip up the bong, you stand a good chance of blocking important information.

2) Another theory I heard from a fellow physics majors that's also a self-confessed wannabe-geneticist (I don't know where he got it, but he's not afraid of trying to understand journals, so I give him the benefit of the doubt) is that when you smoke pot, certain neural paths may be blocked, so to complete the thought, you have to go a different neural path, in which case you may get distracted and never make it to the point, but if you do, you might have a new creative insight, having taken a different neural path to execute some thought process.

I do not stand by these theories, but as a laymen biologist and a professional puffer I can say they're consistant with my experiences.

 

[QuantumKing]

I can relate to the second theory, that's exactly what happens when I am high.

 

[fedorfan]

Does anyone know how alcohol and weed affect adolescents and growing young teens? Like how does it affect their brain and body and what not?

 

[jim mcnamara]

fedorfan - those papers cited by Moonbear are hard to read for the average person.

Basically what the first one says in plain english is:
1. The brain constantly adapts by making new connections between brain cells. It is assumed this is how we learn and grow, for example.
2. Alcohol prevents #1 from happening. (Note that in Science conclusions are carefully stated - this is not)

This thread also points out that long term alcohol consumption lowers available vitamin B1 in your body. Without a good supporting diet you develop the diseases mentioned by Zooby. Nobody has so far cited negative studies about weed - not because they don't exist.

You know, this raises a point. fedorfan wants to know something, but I can't really find something on these subjects that satifies the following:
1. that is not preachy
2. written by technical folks for non-technical folks
3. is not slanted (ie., pro or con marijuana/alcohol), just the facts, ma'am.

Oh well.

 

[J77]

((((( alchohol )))))

 

[fedorfan]

Ive checked on erowid and they don't seem to have anything.