Neutrinos back into the picture?

[ArmoSkater87]

Jesus Beatrix, i was only asking, u don't have to mean about it.

 

[beatrix kiddo]

dude, armo I'm sorry. i have a real bad migraine so i don't mean to be *****y...

 

[beatrix kiddo]

Cool Automatic Censorship!

 

[Chronos]

this gets difficult russ, because i would need to find the force exerted by the neutrino flux during the day, then the force at night and then i'd need the difference. also, i need to know the direct relationship between the neutrino absorption rate and an object's density because this is what determines an object's weight. so, when i figure all of these things out, u'll be the first to know my specific quanta- oh, quantitative prediction. just so u know, I'm not about to make some random prediction. that's not what a real physicist would do...

Agreed. No real physicist would propose a theory, much less a prediction based on that theory, without offering their peers evidence the assumptions used are valid.

Footnote. 'pwns' is a slang term meaning 'I am so in control of you, I could sell you at a pawn shop.'

 

[ArmoSkater87]

beatrix, if u an account for AIM or MSN, then can i have them?

 

[beatrix kiddo]

hahaha.. whatever chronos

armo its medijuju07 at aim

 

[Entropy]

This is degrating into personal attacks like the last thread... Let's ends this and agree to disagree because we're just going in circles. Where is Tom when you need him?

 

[beatrix kiddo]

entropy, don't say that! the LAST thing anyone wants is tom to come here and stop what is becoming my social life...

 

[Alkatran]

I'd just like to point out that you will weigh slightly less at night because you are slightly farther from the sun. I doubt this difference is much at all, but it is there.
*edit woops, got it backwards, see post 2 down*


And I really think that you need to stop and think before you blindly accept that guy's theory that everything is donut shaped.

His argument for it is a 1 dimensional model where the center object is given an initial speed. Of course there's going to be separation into two clusters! And, at the least, why would the final shape be a donut and not a SHELL?? By his own arguments you can't have it centralized (the ring is centralized).

 

[russ_watters]

this gets difficult russ, because i would need to find the force exerted by the neutrino flux during the day, then the force at night and then i'd need the difference. also, i need to know the direct relationship between the neutrino absorption rate and an object's density because this is what determines an object's weight. so, when i figure all of these things out, u'll be the first to know my specific quanta- oh, quantitative prediction. just so u know, I'm not about to make some random prediction. that's not what a real physicist would do...

Oh, ok - so you have an idea, not even an hypothesis yet. Lotta work to do before you can claim any sort of validity. In our opinion, your idea is flawed (and not just a little bit flawed). If you want to convince us otherwise, you need to develop it into a real hypothesis at the very least.

I'd just like to point out that you will weigh slightly less at night because you are slightly farther from the sun. I doubt this difference is much at all, but it is there.

No, at night you'd be walking on your ceiling because the sun is below you, pushing up.

 

[Alkatran]

No, at night you'd be walking on your ceiling because the sun is below you, pushing up.

Woops! I sortof got off track for a moment.

In the day time the sun pulls you from the earth, and at the night the sun pulls you into the earth. So you'll actually weigh a bit MORE at night.

 

[russ_watters]

Woops! I sortof got off track for a moment.

In the day time the sun pulls you from the earth, and at the night the sun pulls you into the earth. So you'll actually weigh a bit MORE at night.

Oh, you meant with the current accepted theory. I was talking about what "push" gravity might predict if anyone ever got around to making a real prediction.

 

[Alkatran]

Oh, you meant with the current accepted theory. I was talking about what "push" gravity might predict if anyone ever got around to making a real prediction.

Yes, I was worried that he would get a super-sensitive scale, confirm there was a weight difference, and come back to us talking about how this proved the theory right.

 

[beatrix kiddo]

Yes, I was worried that he would get a super-sensitive scale, confirm there was a weight difference, and come back to us talking about how this proved the theory right.

no.. sorry guys.. i haven't obtained a super-sensitive scale yet, but when i do the experiment commences! also, tran i kinda already said that if there was a weight difference in the object, that wouldn't necessarily mean I'm right...

u know that's not going to be enough. but i'll do it anyways, since I've been "whining" about it. so right now i weigh 113 (lbs). all i have to do is see if i weigh a little less than that at night...
but even if it does show i weigh less, that won't necessarily mean I'm right. i really want to get some results from neutrino detectors and such.

i was being sarcastic about weighing myself, because that changes with daily actvities, but i can do it with a book or my ps2 or something...

 

[Alkatran]

no.. sorry guys.. i haven't obtained a super-sensitive scale yet, but when i do the experiment commences! also, tran i kinda already said that if there was a weight difference in the object, that wouldn't necessarily mean I'm right...

i was being sarcastic about weighing myself, because that changes with daily actvities, but i can do it with a book or my ps2 or something...

By the current theory, you should weigh slightly more. By your theory you should weight slightly less. We'll see who's right.

 

[chroot]

It doesn't need to be super-sensitive. Any mechanism that's able to generate 170 lbs. of force pushing me into the floor is going to demonstrate variations large enough to be detected with a bathroom scale.

After all, as others have said: if neutrinos from the Sun push me into the Earth during the day, why don't they push me off the Earth at night?

- Warren

 

[beatrix kiddo]

because there are also neutrinos pushing u down on the Earth at night

 

[chroot]

From where?

- Warren

 

[chroot]

And indeed, if there were neutrinos pushing you from every direction at once, there'd be no gravity at all -- the net force would be zero.

- Warren

 

[Alkatran]

because there are also neutrinos pushing u down on the Earth at night

Where are they coming from? How far into the Earth do they penetrate? Do they pass all the way through the earth? If so why don't they cancel out the effect of the sun? If they don't make it all the way through, why don't we weigh (a lot) less underground? Why are the other planets keeping orbit if all these neutrinos happen to be perfectly lined up to keep gravity uniform on earth? Why doesn't this incoming gravity change as we rotate around the sun? If it's focused on the sun why are we being pushed down when on the sides of the earth?

Want me to keep going?

 

[beatrix kiddo]

the neutrinos come from cosmic rays, other planets, other stars.. they travel at nearly light speed, so we get a constant flow of these neutrino waves... and since objects absorb them, it's not like they're directly pushing everything down with the same force, so the net force isn't zero...

 

[beatrix kiddo]

i just read ur questions and i'll answer them but u can keep going if u wish

 

[Alkatran]

Oh, here's the best argument:
If the force on the Earth is uniform on all sides, why is it curving around the sun? Why does the force from FAR OFF places change radicly when we go on the other side of the sun, even though we have moved very little relative to them?

 

[chroot]

the neutrinos come from cosmic rays, other planets, other stars.. they travel at nearly light speed, so we get a constant flow of these neutrino waves... and since objects absorb them, it's not like they're directly pushing everything down with the same force, so the net force isn't zero...

Planets and stars are grouped into the galaxy in a non-uniform way. As you can see when you walk outside at night and look at the milky way, the stars and planets in our galaxy are organized more or less in the form of a disc.

If the neutrinos from these planets and galaxies are pushing on us and create gravity, then we'd have some serious problems:

1) We are near the edge of the galaxy. We are, at any rate, nowhere near its center. Thus the number of neutrinos hitting us from outside the galaxy would be much much smaller than the number hitting us from inside the galaxy. We'd be under a terrible imbalance and we would be rapidly pushed out of the galaxy.

2) Even if we were at the center of the galaxy, the force would be symmetric around galactic longitude. You would be weightless in every direction.

- Warren

 

[chroot]

What we can't figure out, beatrix, is how all the other planets and stars know to push us one direction into the Earth at noon (away from the sun), and then to instead push us the other way at midnight (toward the sun). Six months later, the situation is reversed, though, and all the other planets and stars would have to somehow switch gears and send their neutrinos the other way.

How do you respond?

- Warren

 

[beatrix kiddo]

Where are they coming from?

answered

How far into the Earth do they penetrate?

some pass straight through

Do they pass all the way through the earth?

answered

If so why don't they cancel out the effect of the sun?

they weren't absorbed

If they don't make it all the way through, why don't we weigh (a lot) less underground?

they do make it, objects in the Earth absorb them so u don't weigh a lot less

Why are the other planets keeping orbit if all these neutrinos happen to be perfectly lined up to keep gravity uniform on earth?

other planets maintain their orbit because the neutrinos are lined up for them too.

Why doesn't this incoming gravity change as we rotate around the sun?

distance isn't an issue with the push theory...

If it's focused on the sun why are we being pushed down when on the sides of the earth?

answered: the sun isn't the only supplier of neutrinos

 

[Alkatran]

answered

1: some pass straight through

2: answered

3: they weren't absorbed

4: they do make it, objects in the Earth absorb them so u don't weigh a lot less

5: other planets maintain their orbit because the neutrinos are lined up for them too.

6: distance isn't an issue with the push theory...

7: answered: the sun isn't the only supplier of neutrinos

1: Alright, so you're saying the absorption rate is low? That means that people on the other side of the planet are being affect by almost the same amount of neutrinos as we are, are being push away by these neutrinos, and are almost weightless. Also, the moon isn't orbiting the Earth because it has almost the same net force everywhere.
2: See 1
3: They have just as much chance of being absorbed by us as they do by the people in China. If most pass right through, they get almost the same force.
4: See 1 again.
5: Ok, so we have a sphere with infinite amount of centers... oh wait, that's IMPOSSIBLE. If the neutrinos are lined up for jupiter, it won't orbit the sun. If it's line up for the sun jupiter's moons orbit the sun and not jupiter!

6: Distance IS a factor. The father you are from the sun the more spread out the neutrinos coming from the sun are.

7: And these other suppliers change radicly summer to winter?

 

[beatrix kiddo]

note: the galaxies spin rapidly, so the objects along the edge aren't necessarily pushed out
it's not direct pushing though.. just like in einstein's model, pull is a term of convenience and so is push... the neutrinos are absorbed...
bodies generate neutrinos on all sides, warren. they don't "know" to push us one way or another. the earth, and everything else, is constantly being pelted with neutrinos. these neutrios get absorbed and that's what we percieve as gravity..

 

[chroot]

beatrix,

I love how you simply say 'answered' as if that's enough to convince us you're right. You certainly haven't answered to our satisfaction, and it really does seem to us as though you're just waving your hands and sticking your fingers in your ears while trying to dodge the obvious, glaring problems with your theory by inventing yet another amazing coindence.

- Warren

 

[Alkatran]

note: the galaxies spin rapidly, so the objects along the edge aren't necessarily pushed out
it's not direct pushing though.. just like in einstein's model, pull is a term of convenience and so is push... the neutrinos are absorbed...
bodies generate neutrinos on all sides, warren. they don't "know" to push us one way or another. the earth, and everything else, is constantly being pelted with neutrinos. these neutrios get absorbed and that's what we percieve as gravity..

So let me get this straight. Because the galaxy is spinning, creating a centrifuge (sp?) force OUTWARDS, we aren't flying off?

 

[beatrix kiddo]

distance isn't a factor because we are in a pool of them at all times. neutrinos that have traveled all over the universe, neutrinos left over from the big bang, etc.. gravity isn't a force it is purely emmission and absorption.. yeah that whole spinning galaxies thing was lame.. i'll come up with a better answer in a sec...

 

[Alkatran]

distance isn't a factor because we are in a pool of them at all times. neutrinos that have traveled all over the universe, neutrinos left over from the big bang, etc.. gravity isn't a force it is purely emmission and absorption.. yeah that whole spinning galaxies thing was lame.. i'll come up with a better answer in a sec...

The sun is millions of times closer than all those other galaxies, so the neutrinos coming from it are trillions of times more concentrated than the ones coming from elsewhere. Getting twice as close to the sun multiples the concentration of neutrinos from it by 4 times, but multiplies the concentration of neutrinos coming from lightyears away by 1 +- .0000000 [...] 1

Clearly this will make a large difference in the net force.

 

[beatrix kiddo]

ok.. yes I've got the answer. YAY READING! the neutrinos keep the galaxies together because they surround them like giant halos. that also compensates for the majority of missing matter in the galaxies..
"Since there is no evidence of any other forces at work besides gravity in creating the structure of the universe, the only reasonable possibility is that there is dark unseen matter around the galaxy, surrounding it like a huge invisible halo... And all the mathematics point to it making up a staggering 90 percent of all the matter in the universe." stephen hawking's universe pg. 163

 

[beatrix kiddo]

this also means that perhaps even solar systems are kept together by a circle of neutrinos! and if neutrinos are indeed the most massive part of the galaxy, and they surround it, then according to einstein's model, wouldn't all the stars and junk sink into that ring of neutrinos??

 

[Alkatran]

ok.. yes I've got the answer. YAY READING! the neutrinos keep the galaxies together because they surround them like giant halos. that also compensates for the majority of missing matter in the galaxies..
"Since there is no evidence of any other forces at work besides gravity in creating the strcuture of the universe, the only reasonable possibility is that there is dark unseen matter around the galaxy, surrounding it like a huge invisible halo... And all the mathematics point to it making up a staggering 90 percent of all the matter in the universe." stephen hawking's universe pg. 163

You took that way out of context. If the neutrinos are around the galaxy, that means they aren't colliding with the objects within the galaxy and aren't giving any force to them. Right?

That quote was obviously in the context of dark matter, not neutrinos.