What Does Negative Voltage Really Mean in Different Electrical Contexts?

[Red_CCF]

I've been getting confusing explanation on what negative voltage represents. In electrolytic cells my teacher explains that negative voltage means that voltage needs to be added for current to flow but in AC circuits I get the feel that negative voltage is applied in opposite direction than positive voltage and in DC circuits I was told that current still flows with a negative voltage (when I use opposite leads on a voltmeter to measure the voltage on a battery). Can anyone explain this or clarify any misconceptions I have?

Thanks for any help that you can provide

 

[negitron]

Negative voltage simply means the voltage level is lower than the ground reference. Voltage is always a relative measurement; it must be made with respect to another point. Conventionally, this is either Earth ground or a point designated to represent zero volts--usually the negative terminal of the power supply.

 

[Red_CCF]

Negative voltage simply means the voltage level is lower than the ground reference. Voltage is always a relative measurement; it must be made with respect to another point. Conventionally, this is either Earth ground or a point designated to represent zero volts--usually the negative terminal of the power supply.

But then how come, in an electrolytic cell, negative voltage means that voltage must be added for the cell to work

 

[negitron]

What do you mean?

 

[Red_CCF]

What do you mean?

I was taught in school that in an electrolytic cell, the initial voltage is always negative because the reaction is non spontaneous, and that you need to add voltage to make the reaction go; so basically a negative voltage in an electrolytic cell means current doesn't exist which doesn't seem to be the case in an actual electric circuit. Is this true?

 

[negitron]

I was taught in school that in an electrolytic cell, the initial voltage is always negative because the reaction is non spontaneous, and that you need to add voltage to make the reaction go...

I have never heard of this. Now, it is possible with some rechargeable chemistries to either recharge them improperly or mix charged and discharged cells in a device and push the voltage negative in one or more cells, but this basically kills the cell and renders it unusable.

 

[Dale]

I get the feel that negative voltage is applied in opposite direction than positive voltage and in DC circuits I was told that current still flows with a negative voltage

This is correct. If a circuit is linear (i.e. resistors, capacitors, inductors, but not diodes or transistors) then a negative voltage will simply mean the same current flow but in the opposite direction.

The chemical reaction in a battery goes one way (oxidation on one end reduction on the other) so a negative voltage corresponds to switching the anode and the cathode, not to trying to run the reaction in reverse which would require energy input.

 

[Red_CCF]

This is correct. If a circuit is linear (i.e. resistors, capacitors, inductors, but not diodes or transistors) then a negative voltage will simply mean the same current flow but in the opposite direction.

The chemical reaction in a battery goes one way (oxidation on one end reduction on the other) so a negative voltage corresponds to switching the anode and the cathode, not to trying to run the reaction in reverse which would require energy input.

Thanks for the reply

I have some follow up questions on this topic

When I switch the leads of the voltmeter to measure voltage on a battery (so the voltage reads -1.5V instead of 1.5), is there still current going through the voltmeter? What is the difference between the above case and putting a battery backwards in, for example, a flashlight (putting the positive end on the negative end of the casing and vice versa) where no current flows? Do both result in negative voltages?

In an electrolytic cell, I was taught that the magnitude of the negative voltage of the redox reaction is the amount of positive voltage that needs to be added for the reaction to go. I never really understood this because, from a physics perspective, adding the positive voltage which is equal in magnitude to the negative voltage of the reaction results in 0V; how does electrons move if it has 0 potential difference from anode to cathode?

 

[mikelepore]

and putting a battery backwards in, for example, a flashlight (putting the positive end on the negative end of the casing and vice versa) where no current flows?

Current does flow in the flashlight. If you put batteries into a flashlight backwards, it will only fail to work in these cases:

-- if it's an LED flashlight

-- if the batteries aren't making contact, because the metal parts inside the flashlight were made in a certain shape to touch the bump that sticks out of the positive side of a battery and the flat surface of the negative side of a battery.

 

[Dale]

When I switch the leads of the voltmeter to measure voltage on a battery (so the voltage reads -1.5V instead of 1.5), is there still current going through the voltmeter?

Yes, but a good voltmeter has a very high impedance so there is very little current.

In an electrolytic cell, I was taught that the magnitude of the negative voltage of the redox reaction is the amount of positive voltage that needs to be added for the reaction to go. I never really understood this because, from a physics perspective, adding the positive voltage which is equal in magnitude to the negative voltage of the reaction results in 0V; how does electrons move if it has 0 potential difference from anode to cathode?

I don't know what you are actually describing here. When an oxidation reaction is spontaneous that means that the oxidized state is more stable than the reduced state. That means that in the oxidation reaction work is done on the electrons as they leave. You can make the reaction go in the opposite direction (reduction), but you have to do work on the electrons in order to move them from the more stable to the less stable state.

 

[Naty1]

" In an electrolytic cell, I was taught that the magnitude of the negative voltage of the redox reaction is the amount of positive voltage that needs to be added..."

this does not describe a battery.


Seems like there may be confusion here between electrolytic cell and galvanic (battery)cell.

a galvanic cell is a unit/component of a battery and produces electricity, like an automobile battery.

an electrolytic cell CONSUMES electricity and might be used used for plating things, for example, like chrome on bronze.

Try wikipedia for a bit more of an explanation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolytic_cell#Galvanic_cells_compared_to_electrolytic_cells

 

[Red_CCF]

Thanks for the replies

I don't know what you are actually describing here. When an oxidation reaction is spontaneous that means that the oxidized state is more stable than the reduced state. That means that in the oxidation reaction work is done on the electrons as they leave. You can make the reaction go in the opposite direction (reduction), but you have to do work on the electrons in order to move them from the more stable to the less stable state.

My confusion is basically how the negative voltage of an electrolytic cell is determined, and why adding enough voltage to increase the negative voltage of the electrolytic cell to 0 would move the electrons.

 

[Red_CCF]

-- if the batteries aren't making contact, because the metal parts inside the flashlight were made in a certain shape to touch the bump that sticks out of the positive side of a battery and the flat surface of the negative side of a battery.

So switching the leads on a voltmeter (which results in a negative voltage) is not the same as putting a battery the opposite way on a battery casing inside of a flashlight because in one current flows and in the other current does not?

 

[Redbelly98]

Current would flow even if the battery is switched the opposite way, as long as:

1. the battery terminals still make contact with the flashlight wiring

and

2. it is a standard bulb (i.e not an LED).

That was mikelepore's point earlier.

 

[Dale]

My confusion is basically how the negative voltage of an electrolytic cell is determined, and why adding enough voltage to increase the negative voltage of the electrolytic cell to 0 would move the electrons.

Remember what voltage is, it is an amount of energy or work per unit charge. One Volt is one Joule/Coulomb, or equivalently one ElectronVolt (a unit of energy) per ElementaryCharge (the amount of charge on a proton or electron). So, if you have a 1.5 V battery that means that on a molecular level the redox reaction does 1.5 ElectronVolts of work on each electron that flows. If the reaction is reversible then you can do 1.5 ElectronVolts of external work on each electron and run the reaction in reverse.

 

[Red_CCF]

Current would flow even if the battery is switched the opposite way, as long as:

1. the battery terminals still make contact with the flashlight wiring

and

2. it is a standard bulb (i.e not an LED).

That was mikelepore's point earlier.

So the casing on a flashlight is designed so that there is only one way to positive the batteries so that the terminals make contact with the wiring. But if, say for a casing (assuming the terminals make contact with the wiring) or for a voltmeter, we switch the terminals to the opposite way, does the direction of the current change as you implied with your second statement? How does that work because I thought that current MUST flow from positive to negative or did I misunderstand your statement. Thanks

 

[Red_CCF]

Remember what voltage is, it is an amount of energy or work per unit charge. One Volt is one Joule/Coulomb, or equivalently one ElectronVolt (a unit of energy) per ElementaryCharge (the amount of charge on a proton or electron). So, if you have a 1.5 V battery that means that on a molecular level the redox reaction does 1.5 ElectronVolts of work on each electron that flows. If the reaction is reversible then you can do 1.5 ElectronVolts of external work on each electron and run the reaction in reverse.

Oh so it's just applying work against the potential of the electrolytic cell.

Thanks for answering my question!

 

[mikelepore]

So the casing on a flashlight is designed so that there is only one way to positive the batteries so that the terminals make contact with the wiring. But if, say for a casing (assuming the terminals make contact with the wiring) or for a voltmeter, we switch the terminals to the opposite way, does the direction of the current change as you implied with your second statement? How does that work because I thought that current MUST flow from positive to negative or did I misunderstand your statement. Thanks

Yes, if you reverse the batteries in a flashlight, you will reverse the direction of the current through the bulb. If you reverse the wires to any meter, you will reverse the direction of the current through the meter.

People usually visualize voltage as as having the same role that the sense of up and down has for gravity problems. Imagine if you were to flip a mountain upside down so that it's peak is down and its base is up, then you could drop a ball on it and it would begin to move toward the peak instead of toward the base. There is still a spontanoeus direction for motion even though you have reversed the path. A battery is a device that puts charge in a location where it will spontaneously move to another location.

 

[Red_CCF]

Yes, if you reverse the batteries in a flashlight, you will reverse the direction of the current through the bulb. If you reverse the wires to any meter, you will reverse the direction of the current through the meter.

People usually visualize voltage as as having the same role that the sense of up and down has for gravity problems. Imagine if you were to flip a mountain upside down so that it's peak is down and its base is up, then you could drop a ball on it and it would begin to move toward the peak instead of toward the base. There is still a spontanoeus direction for motion even though you have reversed the path. A battery is a device that puts charge in a location where it will spontaneously move to another location.

I have some trouble adjusting to this concept. Because if we're using a voltmeter, and we switch the leads, the electrons will go from positive terminal to the negative terminal and not the other way around?

 

[Dale]

Yes, but it doesn't matter which direction the current goes through a lightbulb.

 

[Red_CCF]

Yes, but it doesn't matter which direction the current goes through a lightbulb.

Wait so electrons DO go from positive to negative when we switch the leads on a voltmeter? How do they switch directions?

 

[Dale]

I don't understand your question. Current goes in a loop so exactly as much current always goes up in voltage as goes down in voltage around any arbitrary circuit.

Also, it is more useful to talk about current than about electrons. The charge carriers are not always electrons, particularly if you have a battery in the mix.

 

[Red_CCF]

I don't understand your question. Current goes in a loop so exactly as much current always goes up in voltage as goes down in voltage around any arbitrary circuit.

Also, it is more useful to talk about current than about electrons. The charge carriers are not always electrons, particularly if you have a battery in the mix.

I'm wondering whether the direction of the current changes when we switch the leads on a voltmeter and how that works if the positive and negative terminals don't change.

I thought that only electrons carry the charge in a circuit

 

[Dale]

I'm wondering whether the direction of the current changes when we switch the leads on a voltmeter and how that works if the positive and negative terminals don't change.

The direction of the current through the voltmeter changes, but not the direction of the current through the battery.

I thought that only electrons carry the charge in a circuit

No, for example there are usually positive ions that are charge carriers in electrolytes.

 

[Red_CCF]

The direction of the current through the voltmeter changes, but not the direction of the current through the battery.

But a battery and a voltmeter is connected in series on a circuit. How can the direction of the current change for one but not the other?

No, for example there are usually positive ions that are charge carriers in electrolytes.

Sorry for not being clear before, by current I meant charge carriers through a wire

 

[mikelepore]

In the wire only electrons flow. The conventional definition of current is the net flow of positive charge, so pretend that you have positive charges coming of the positive terminal of the battery, instead of the actual situation which is electrons coming out of the negative terminal of the battery.

In your circuit problem you can draw an arrow to represent conventional current from the positive side of the battery, through whatever is in the path (light bulb or meter or switch, etc.), and into the negative side of the battery. This will show you that reversing the components in the path would reverse the current through them.

 

[mikelepore]

But a battery and a voltmeter is connected in series on a circuit. How can the direction of the current change for one but not the other?

Because you asked what would happen if you turned the meter around.

Note: If you turn around BOTH the battery and the voltmeter, that's the same as not making any change at all.

 

[f95toli]

But a battery and a voltmeter is connected in series on a circuit. How can the direction of the current change for one but not the other?

No, a voltmeter is always connected in PARALLELL with what you are measuring (but an ammeter should be connected in series).
If you had an ideal voltmeter there would be no current flowing through it; and it you have good instrument that is actually not a bad approximation (there IS of course a current; but it is very small).

 

[Dale]

But a battery and a voltmeter is connected in series on a circuit. How can the direction of the current change for one but not the other?

You are not thinking this through clearly. It absolutely must change for one and not the other, regardless of the direction of the current. Say you label one terminal of the voltmeter "A" and the other "B" and say that you label one terminal of the battery "a" and the other "b".

Now, let's say that you put the voltmeter on your left with "A" up and "B" down and the battery on your right with "a" up and "b" down and you connect "A" to "a" and "B" to "b". Now, you will have a loop, current will go around that loop either clockwise or counterclockwise. If it goes clockwise then current will go from "a" to "b" through the battery and from "B" to "A" through the voltmeter. If it goes counterclockwise then current will go from "b" to "a" through the battery and from "A" to "B" through the voltmeter.

Now, we flip the voltmeter so that "B" is up and "A" is down, and we connect "A" to "b" and "B" to "a". We again have a loop and current will go either clockwise or counterclockwise. If it goes clockwise then current will go from "a" to "b" through the battery and from "A" to "B" through the voltmeter. If it goes counterclockwise then current will go from "b to a" through the battery and from "B" to "A" through the voltmeter. Either way the direction of current through one and only one must change.

 

[mikelepore]

No, a voltmeter is always connected in PARALLELL with what you are measuring (but an ammeter should be connected in series).
If you had an ideal voltmeter there would be no current flowing through it; and it you have good instrument that is actually not a bad approximation (there IS of course a current; but it is very small).

My interpretation was that the question was about that very small current, when you have nothing connected but a voltmeter across a battery, and about a microamperes flows.

 

[Red_CCF]

You are not thinking this through clearly. It absolutely must change for one and not the other, regardless of the direction of the current. Say you label one terminal of the voltmeter "A" and the other "B" and say that you label one terminal of the battery "a" and the other "b".

Now, let's say that you put the voltmeter on your left with "A" up and "B" down and the battery on your right with "a" up and "b" down and you connect "A" to "a" and "B" to "b". Now, you will have a loop, current will go around that loop either clockwise or counterclockwise. If it goes clockwise then current will go from "a" to "b" through the battery and from "B" to "A" through the voltmeter. If it goes counterclockwise then current will go from "b" to "a" through the battery and from "A" to "B" through the voltmeter.

Now, we flip the voltmeter so that "B" is up and "A" is down, and we connect "A" to "b" and "B" to "a". We again have a loop and current will go either clockwise or counterclockwise. If it goes clockwise then current will go from "a" to "b" through the battery and from "A" to "B" through the voltmeter. If it goes counterclockwise then current will go from "b to a" through the battery and from "B" to "A" through the voltmeter. Either way the direction of current through one and only one must change.

I apologize for being so slow but I just can't seem to wrap my head around this for some reason. The part that I don't quite get in your explanation is the part where the current goes through the battery. I was told that current never goes through the battery but from positive to negative terminals through the wire.

 

[Dale]

The part that I don't quite get in your explanation is the part where the current goes through the battery. I was told that current never goes through the battery but from positive to negative terminals through the wire.

You were told wrong then. Current always goes in a complete loop, that is why we use the word "circuit" to describe electrical devices. This also relates to our https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2311338&postcount=20" where we specifically talked about the current through a battery.

 

[Red_CCF]

You were told wrong then. Current always goes in a complete loop, that is why we use the word "circuit" to describe electrical devices. This also relates to our https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2311338&postcount=20" where we specifically talked about the current through a battery.

Oh I think I know where my confusion arises from. I was thinking about the flow of electrons which doesn't travel through a battery but I did not consider the electrolytes as charge carrying current as well.