Delhi gang-rape victim dies in hospital in Singapore

[rootX]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20860569

It's a sad story. RIP the poor girl. Few other cases have emerged recently but they only got attention of the world media because of this Delhi case.

There are many women-issues in that area and I wonder if ever these issues will be addressed adequately as it can be clear from how poorly the Indian government responded:
India's rulers 'too slow' over rape protests

 

[lisab]

This news made me so sad!

One thing that gives me hope: some of the protesters understand that making rape punishable by the death penalty won't solve the problem. The debate is ongoing:

http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/28/debating-the-death-penalty-for-rape-in-india/

The root of the issue lies in the culture, IMO. Not just Indian culture, mind you. This is a much more widespread issue.

 

[rootX]

The root of the issue lies in the culture, IMO.

Yes I also think the same, this is the reason I think there's no solution in foreseeable future. Cultures take time to change and in Asia/Africa are lagging far behind the current time.

If death penalty is the worst punishment that can be given, least it's the thing that the offenders deserve the most IMO.

 

[Curious3141]

As an Indian by ethnicity and a Singaporean by nationality, this heinous crime horrifies me. I'm a doctor, but I had no direct role in her care. I'm immensely saddened by the poor girl's death, but hope she's found some sort of peace (even though I don't believe in an afterlife).

The most insensitive comments pertaining to this incident have come, ironically enough, from a woman, and an educated one at that (a supposed "agricultural scientist"):

In a shocking reaction to the Delhi gang-rape victim, Dr. Anita Shukla ironically blamed the victim herself for the crime committed; at a seminar in Khargone,M.P. The police department had called for a seminar on the topic, ‘Sensitivity towards women'.

Continuing with her blames she said, ‘Women instigate men to commit such crimes'. She also raised that why was the victim out of her house after 10 pm and added that if a girl will wander late at night with her boyfriend; such situations are bound to happen.

In a strange reaction to such comments, most of the senior officials remained silent. Shukla asserted that police cannot give extreme protection to every citizen at all times. She commented, ‘The victim should have surrendered when surrounded by six men, at least it could have saved her intestines'.

When Bhaskar contacted her again after the seminar on why she made such insensitive comments, she mentioned that she has her sympathies with the victim. However, women can stop such incidences by showing their maturity under such circumstances.

Shukla is the Secretary of Lions Club and an agricultural scientist by profession.

Source: http://daily.bhaskar.com/article/MP...to-rape-says-woman-scientist-4128063-NOR.html

Truly appalling. This woman's statement makes me sick. She chose to blame the girl - instead of blaming a culture that:

1) treats men as axiomatically superior to women; that in fact, still considers women chattel in many instances

2) places the burden of guilt and shame on hapless rape victims by actually asking them to marry their tormentors

What happened to this poor girl is very, very tragic, but all too common in Delhi. Delhi is about the worst place in India when it comes to the euphemistically-labelled "eve teasing" (which amounts to molestation) and rape. Most other places in India are nowhere near as bad. But this one story out of Delhi has disgraced a nation.

While it is imprudent for a young girl to go out late at night given the appalling lack of safety in Delhi, she should not be assigned any blame for what happened to her. If I get mugged while wearing a flash watch, it doesn't mitigate the culpability of the mugger in any way. Anita Shukla could have spoken about the need to change the very culture of that place, and remonstrated on measures that should be taken - e.g. increased police patrols, harsher penalties against rapists, social campaigns to destigmatise rape - but instead chose to go for the soft target. Shame on her.

 

[WannabeNewton]

I don't see how the rape itself can be attributed to culture considering rape happens everywhere even in the so called "modernized" culture of the United States. Maybe focusing on the rampant corruption and blatant disregard for living things exhibited by the police and government there would be something worth targeting.

 

[rootX]

I don't see how the rape itself can be attributed to culture considering rape happens everywhere even in the so called "modernized" culture of the United States. Maybe focusing on the rampant corruption and blatant disregard for living things exhibited by the police and government there would be something worth targeting.

I was looking on wikipedia Rape statistics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics). You will see Sweden and the US have higher numbers while countries like India are at the bottom. It's the culture that prevents women from reporting. One another story came up was about a girl who reported but the police did not responded well so she committed suicide. Only god knows how many incidents like this happen in India every single day.

Further, rape is only a tip of iceberg. There are many other women related issues in those regions like domestic abuse, child marriages etc.

The most insensitive comments pertaining to this incident have come, ironically enough, from a woman, and an educated one at that (a supposed "agricultural scientist")..

There was one similar statement from a politician (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20852513). It's sad how lightly they considered this matter.

 

[WannabeNewton]

I was looking on wikipedia Rape statistics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics). You will see Sweden and the US have higher numbers while countries like India are at the bottom. It's the culture that prevents women from reporting. One another story came up was about a girl who reported but the police did not responded well so she committed suicide. Only god knows how many incidents like this happen in India every single day.

Well I've been taught all my teenage life very different reasons for why women don't report i.e. fear or shame etc. While I don't deny what you are commenting on culture, I just feel the disgusting nature of the police should be handled first. The policemen anger me beyond means.

 

[jedishrfu]

This news has made me sad too. I thought she might make it safe in Singapore. Having read about the crime, it angers me greatly to see people blame the victim. I am stunned by the audacity of the crime and the fact that no one has been arrested yet and charged with murder.

 

[Curious3141]

This news has made me sad too. I thought she might make it safe in Singapore.

The medical evacuation was likely done for political expediency. India certainly has the medical facilities (in metropolitan centres like Delhi) to have cared for her, but she was probably moved because they didn't want to added PR headache of having her die there. I guess they wanted to make it look like they did everything within their power to save her, hence the transfer to a private hospital here in Singapore at the Indian government's expense. But the point is: you don't transfer a critically-ill patient over a long distance unless it's absolutely necessary. It wasn't medically-indicated, and in fact, her transfer was probably contraindicated by her condition. I think her fate was sealed either way, but what angers me is that the decision was probably taken out of political cowardice, a "pass-the-buck" mentality rather than a genuine desire to help the girl.

Having read about the crime, it angers me greatly to see people blame the victim. I am stunned by the audacity of the crime and the fact that no one has been arrested yet and charged with murder.

This is not true. They've been arrested a while back, and the one supposed to be the ring-leader (Mukesh) is having a VERY unpleasant time in prison, courtesy of the other inmates (probably nothing on what this poor innocent girl went through, of course). And they're being charged with murder. See: http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/delhi-police-to-invoke-murder-chargesrapists/200917/on

 

[jedishrfu]

The medical evacuation was likely done for political expediency. India certainly has the medical facilities (in metropolitan centres like Delhi) to have cared for her, but she was probably moved because they didn't want to added PR headache of having her die there. I guess they wanted to make it look like they did everything within their power to save her, hence the transfer to a private hospital here in Singapore at the Indian government's expense. But the point is: you don't transfer a critically-ill patient over a long distance unless it's absolutely necessary. It wasn't medically-indicated, and in fact, her transfer was probably contraindicated by her condition. I think her fate was sealed either way, but what angers me is that the decision was probably taken out of political cowardice, a "pass-the-buck" mentality rather than a genuine desire to help the girl.This is not true. They've been arrested a while back, and the one supposed to be the ring-leader (Mukesh) is having a VERY unpleasant time in prison, courtesy of the other inmates (probably nothing on what this poor innocent girl went through, of course). And they're being charged with murder. See: http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/delhi-police-to-invoke-murder-chargesrapists/200917/on

You're right I just saw this as I read more. So many articles focus on the victim and police inaction that it seemed they hadn't been identified or arrested.

With respect to the hospital transfer, it seemed that it was done to protect her from the media but I think your theory is more likely. It's very wrong to move a critically ill patient for any reason unless you have no choice.

I've heard of cases that happens here where someone dies at a worksite and is taken away by the ambulance and its reported that they died enroute to the hospital.

 

[surajt88]

I am saddened by the girl's death. With the news reports we were getting here for the past few days citing improvements in her condition, I had assumed she was under care and would recuperate eventually. But the sudden "she's critical!" and her death following the transfer to Singapore, leads me to believe that the whole issue is much politicized. With the personal exposure to similar events in local news which rarely make it to the international media, I'd say this particular issue is "politically over publicized". I have repeatedly come to know about more brutal and violent crimes against women in this part of the world, which hardly made national headlines.(see "honour killings" that happen in India for starters. And I can provide more links upon request, as posting the links here would derail this thread)

In reply to Curious3141, though I don't agree with Anitha Shukla completely, I'd say that, given an untrustworthy police, I'd never recommend a women to roam the streets of Delhi after 10pm with her boyfriend. A lot more rape happens here when a boy & girl are found to have illicit relationship before marriage and are caught by "gangsters" who rape the girl and the matter is never reported for fear of the girl's future (Very few would agree to marry a rape victim in these parts).

P.S. I'd like to add that my views here are not intended to be in any way insensitive to the issue as I have been told in other forums, which IMO, when taken at this time might seem harsh to some people but in the longer run might receive a different reaction.

 

[Skrew]

I'm actually curious why this got so much attention. This happens in the US too but you don't see this type of response, the media actually seems to ignore it...

 

[surajt88]

I'm actually curious why this got so much attention. This happens in the US too but you don't see this type of response, the media actually seems to ignore it...

Gang rape --> media coverage --> initial public outrage --> more media coverage --> more outrage-->regional headlines --> more media coverage --> more outrage --> national headlines-->more media coverage --> more outrage --> international coverage
most issues would die down after the third "media coverage"..

 

[Vagrant]

In reply to Curious3141, though I don't agree with Anitha Shukla completely, I'd say that, given an untrustworthy police, I'd never recommend a women to roam the streets of Delhi after 10pm with her boyfriend.

When would you recommend that a woman 'roams' the streets of Delhi, or any other city for that matter? With whom? And with whose approval? Stop blaming the victims.

P.S. I'd like to add that my views here are not in any way insensitive to the issue as I have been told in other forums, which IMO, when taken at this time might seem harsh to some people but in the longer run might receive a different reaction.

I disagree. I find your comment highly insensitive, patronizing and offensive.

 

[surajt88]

When would you recommend that a woman 'roams' the streets of Delhi, or any other city for that matter? With whom? And with whose approval? Stop blaming the victims.

I would recommend any women I know to roam the street of Delhi (or anywhere in India), sight seeing or just for the sake of it, with whomever they want as long as it is not after 10pm. That would be my advice to my friends. And I did not blame any victims in my post.

I disagree. I find your comment highly insensitive, patronizing and offensive.

Sorry you felt that way.

 

[Vagrant]

I would recommend any women I know to roam the street of Delhi (or anywhere in India), sight seeing or just for the sake of it, with whomever they want as long as it is not after 10pm. That would be my advice to my friends. And I did not blame any victims in my post.

So 10 pm is the magical hour when all the pumpkins turn into monsters?
And do you also back up these 'recommendations' of yours with a guarantee of safety, if someone should actually listen to you?

 

[surajt88]

So 10 pm is the magical hour when all the pumpkins turn into monsters?
And do you also back up these 'recommendations' of yours with a guarantee of safety, if someone should actually listen to you?

I know you understand that I didn't mean that women are safe till 9.59 and are immediately in danger at 10.01. Also I'm also sure you don't think that I meant women are 100% safe before 10pm. I assumed you were competent enough to understand that the timing would vary depending on situation.

Participation in a midnight protest in the heart of Delhi with police protection.? Okay.

Roaming around dark streets in Delhi after midnight with boyfriend? No.

Again, that would be the advice "I" would give to "my friends". And none of them ever asked me to back my claims with peer reviewed sources guaranteeing safety.

Having a right to do something doesn't necessarily mean you can always do that without injuring yourself.

 

[Curious3141]

Having a right to do something doesn't necessarily mean you can always do that without injuring yourself.

No, but we're not talking about injuring oneself here. This is grievous harm done to an innocent.

And the first response shouldn't be to dissuade women from going out after dark. If there's a problem, the root cause should be addressed. These "gangsters" should be taken out in any way possible. One solution would be to send attractive young female officers who are thoroughly trained in weapons and unarmed combat *and* armed to the teeth out in plain clothes as bait. The would-be rapists who try their luck with these girls would live to regret it - if they're lucky enough. The unlucky ones can be claimed in the morgue by those they leave behind. In tandem with these measures, draconian penalties should be imposed on anyone who's convicted of sexual assault, especially violent sexual assault. A societal campaign to destigmatise rape with prominent representation from religious and secular community leaders should also be mooted, to break the conspiracy of shameful silence that claims many victims and leaves the crime under-reported.

Those are the measures that I would think of. My first thought wouldn't be to instruct the women to adapt to the unjust situation that currently exists, but to redress it so that it becomes equitable and safe.

 

[WannabeNewton]

And the first response shouldn't be to dissuade women from going out after dark. If there's a problem, the root cause should be addressed. These "gangsters" should be taken out in any way possible. One solution would be to send attractive young female officers who are thoroughly trained in weapons and unarmed combat *and* armed to the teeth out in plain clothes as bait.

Rape is not a purely sexual act - it doesn't happen just because a girl is attractive. Rape is a matter of empowerment over and submission of the victim. Attractiveness seems to imply a solely sexual motive which isn't the case in general (or even the majority). Regardless, your suggestions are better than nil. Reminds me of tomb raider for some reason.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

If there was a lion harassing a village and you went out at night and got eaten, we would blame your stupidity. Then we would kill the lion. Why doesn't this village make itself safe? Is it because the safety of women is not 'our' safety?

 

[Vagrant]

I know you understand that I didn't mean that women are safe till 9.59 and are immediately in danger at 10.01. Also I'm also sure you don't think that I meant women are 100% safe before 10pm. I assumed you were competent enough to understand that the timing would vary depending on situation.

Participation in a midnight protest in the heart of Delhi with police protection.? Okay.

Roaming around dark streets in Delhi after midnight with boyfriend? No.

Again, that would be the advice "I" would give to "my friends". And none of them ever asked me to back my claims with peer reviewed sources guaranteeing safety.

Having a right to do something doesn't necessarily mean you can always do that without injuring yourself.

What you don't seem to get is that there is no 'safe time' or 'safe conditions'. And victims aren't fair game at any time, place or situation. Victims aren't stupid or careless or incompetent. And as long as you continue to pick apart a victim's actions you are victim blaming, and enabling the rape culture to boot. Victims don't invite rape. Rapists commit rape. After every crime you can come back with a list of things that could have been done differently. 10 pm is your suggestion today because this woman was assaulted at 10. It's a meaningless number.

 

[bigQ]

Night time has nothing to do with rape. In Mumbai a woman was raped three times by three different people in a single day...and that is during daytime. It is the mentality of few men to look women as "toys" which is causing such incidences. And talking about police of India... they are too busy in taking bribes, they don't have time to provide security to people.

 

[I_am_learning]

To go along jimmy's analogy I would like to add that while our first thought should be about how we could kill the lion, but as long as we aren't finished with the task we shouldn't go out of our house at night, at least not without a gun, and definitely not towards the jungle. But the problem is every one has got accustomed to not going out at night and peoples have begun to forget about killing the lions.

 

[I_am_learning]

Night time has nothing to do with rape.

Do you have any statistics to back that? I seriously doubt it.

 

[surajt88]

These "gangsters " should be taken out in any way possible. [...] The unlucky ones can be claimed in the morgue by those they leave behind.

Sigh.. Sadly, among all the people I have personally interacted around here in the past few weeks, I am the only one I know who is opposed to a death sentence to the rapists. As one of the possible consequences of such a law, any future rapist will be more inclined to kill the victim, a first-hand witness, fearing a possible death sentence. I don't consider capital punishment as an effective deterrent to crime, but my voice isn't loud enough. Maybe I should put these in all caps. The US, being the only "developed" nation which still practices capital punishments, hasn't seen the lowest crime rates for example.

Why doesn 't this village make itself safe ?

A good question. Perhaps the village elders aren't willing? What can a commoner do other than keep themselves from being eaten? revolt?

What you don't seem to get is that there is no ' safe time' or 'safe conditions'. And victims aren't fair game at any time , place or situation .

You are mistaken. There ARE safe times and situations. I hope I don't have to give examples. And in the same vein, not every square metre in the developed world is safe. There are parts in EVERY country where it is unsafe for women at night. Whether knowingly or otherwise, if a woman wanders in such areas at the wrong time unprotected, she is bound to get hurt. It may not be the mistake of said woman, but she will be the one feeling the pain and not her sympathizers.

 

[Astronuc]

Death of India rape victim stirs anger, promises of action
http://news.yahoo.com/india-gang-rape-victim-dies-singapore-hospital-002303027.html

It is indeed a heinous crime.

 

[rootX]

Sigh.. Sadly, among all the people I have personally interacted around here in the past few weeks, I am the only one I know who is opposed to a death sentence to the rapists.

A good question. Perhaps the village elders aren't willing? What can a commoner do other than keep themselves from being eaten? revolt?

Are you suggesting do-nothing and advice women to be home by 10 PM?

You are mistaken. There ARE safe times and situations. I hope I don't have to give examples. And in the same vein, not every square metre in the developed world is safe. There are parts in EVERY country where it is unsafe for women at night. Whether knowingly or otherwise, if a woman wanders in such areas at the wrong time unprotected, she is bound to get hurt. It may not be the mistake of said woman, but she will be the one feeling the pain and not her sympathizers.

I live in area where you will come across women walking all by themselves at any time of the night. You might as well find some stupid drunk girl passed out outside :grumpy: I feel like really glad to live in very safe community.

But here, were the victims here hanging out in low income area or safer area? It will be outrageous if no area in the capital of India is safe.

 

[surajt88]

Are you suggesting do-nothing and advice women to be home by 10 PM?

I do not suggest to do nothing about it. But, capital punishment is not the way to address this issue. There are places in southern India where women are not allowed to stay outside after dark. Rural areas around Madurai are an example. From first hand account, I can vouch that nearly 20 to 30 rapes occur around Madurai city every month. And most of it is never reported fearing the victims' future. Unless we have a social upheaval in these parts, I will advice women to be home by 10 PM.

I live in area where you will come across women walking all by themselves at any time of the night. You might as well find some stupid drunk girl passed out outside :grumpy: I feel like really glad to live in very safe community.

But here, were the victims here hanging out in low income area or safer area? It will be outrageous if no area in the capital of India is safe.

http://m.thehindu.com/news/national/delhi-gangrape-victim-narrates-the-tale-of-horror/article4230038.ece/ that the victims returned from a movie and were waiting for a bus in Munirka. I'd call that area a semi-urban residential area. Not the safest of places in Delhi IMO.

Also in the same report, it may be seen that the girl was taunted by the rapists questioning her what she was doing so late in the night with her boyfriend. It may suggest that the rapists might have thought that the rape was justified as the girl, in their own opinion was, having an illicit relationship before marriage. This sick attitude is more a cultural thing, where women are expected to be chaste. For other such examples, try a google search. This moral policing is an ongoing phenomenon demonstrating such attitudes.

 

[256bits]

Also in the same report, it may be seen that the girl was taunted by the rapists questioning her what she was doing so late in the night with her boyfriend. It may suggest that the rapists might have thought that the rape was justified as the girl, in their own opinion was, having an illicit relationship before marriage. This sick attitude is more a cultural thing, where women are expected to be chaste. For other such examples, try a google search. This moral policing is an ongoing phenomenon demonstrating such attitudes.

Your post is as good as any to quote, since you mention the attitude of culture and moral policing. Societies evolve generationally with the younger not having as much root into the same beliefs as the older people, and whether the changing beliefs are better or worse is an open question. This sad case may inspire a political movement to assign better quality to the role of women in the country.

Besides cultural, there are economic and legal issues that come into play.

Not so long ago, 40 or so years, a rape victim in N.America ( generalization ) had to prove to the court that she (he?) was completely innocent in not attempting the morals of the accussed by dress or manner. Past history of the victim could be brought in as evidence that she was of 'loose morals' and would have known what situation she was getting into from 'experience'. Failure on her part to not lead a puritanical life, provocative clothing, being at a place where a good girl should not be, could all be used as evidence to gain the aquital of the accussed.

The legal issue was adressed by reclassifying rape to sexual assault therby removing stigma and disallowing such sort of evidence in court, as descibed above. But that took years to bring about into the legal system and change attitudes of law makers (ie politicans ), lawyers, judges, media.

The economic issue is that of what role do woman play as 100% members of society, or are they? Nowadays, in N.america again, woman over the years have progressed , if that is the word to use, from being 50% citizens with no right to vote and no chance of acceptance into certain vocational activities to having the right to choose what they can do, and can go so far as being an astronaught flying into space. The reasons and history of the womans movement comprises as very, very long discussion.

Perhaps this case, where someone had to die, will be the spark to ignite enough continious momentum to achieve some change that is being expressed as desired, both here and as evidenced by the protests in the country.

 

[Astronuc]

http://news.yahoo.com/india-rape-victims-ashes-scattered-more-attacks-stoke-171053221.html

LUCKNOW, India (Reuters) - The ashes of an Indian student who died after being gang-raped were scattered in the Ganges river on Tuesday as reports of more attacks stoked a growing national debate on violence against women.

. . . .

I don't understand the need for a debate. Debate what? It's a simple proposition of protecting women against an abhorrent crime. There's nothing in that to debate - except perhaps the best means to do so.

The following article contains disturbing details of the particularly violent attack.
http://news.yahoo.com/indian-students-gang-rape-murder-two-worlds-collide-055603952.html

There does not appear to be any sympathy for the perpetrators.

 

[rootX]

The following article contains disturbing details of the particularly violent attack.
http://news.yahoo.com/indian-students-gang-rape-murder-two-worlds-collide-055603952.html

In wake of this attack, someone on radio was getting into details and I quickly changed the channel because of the disturbing nature of the attack. I continued avoiding the issue until they started focusing on "debate" and future than the actual incident.

I don't understand the need for a debate. Debate what?

From reading surajt post, I feel like people are associating this attack with people behind moral policing attacks (http://articles.timesofindia.indiat...94_1_mangalore-pub-jagadish-karanth-attackers). People want everyone to be more tolerant and liberal IMO.

It's very unclear about what they are going to debate about. There are many broad issues that need to be addressed like:
1) Better security
2) Tolerant to western values
3) Encouraging women to report these incidents
4) Society to be more supportive of victims

 

[jobyts]

A colleague of mine is from Delhi. He once told us an incident happened to one of his neighbors.

In his apartment complex, there was this widow and her 3 teenage sons. One of the sons was stabbed to death by some gang. The family knows who did it. The gang threatened the mom that if she complains to the police they are going to kill her the other two sons.

To protect her other children, till now she has not made any evidence to the police.

 

[rootX]

More, friend's interview:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20916131

It appears the girl was not given attention just moments after the incident neither few days after when her condition was deteriorating. The government could have fly her to western hospital instead of ignoring the incident for first few days and then immaturely flying her to Singapore IMO

In other news,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-20907458

The ruling Congress party in India's Assam state has suspended a politician accused of rape after he was set upon and beaten by crowds in a village.

 

[Evo]

Just appaling.

 

[drizzle]

Oh my.. poor girl :'(

I have no word that can express my grief for her, and anger of such digusting criminals