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Here is the experiment with the final answer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_8LFhakQAk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_8LFhakQAk
It get's lighter. Suppose we put two flasks on the scale, each containing a ping pong ball anchored from below. The scale will balance because we're measuring two identical systems. Now cut the string on the right. The ping pong ball will float, with almost all of the ball out of the water. The air will buoy the part of the ball that is sticking out of the water. The air in the ball (about 4 centigram) will be a part of what is measured on the left. On the right, that air won't register. The scale will tilt down to the left.chingel said:If we cut the string on the left container and let the ball float, the whole container doesn't get any heavier ...
That analysis is not quite correct. There is a difference between a floating ping pong ball and a submerged one. The submerged ping pong ball system includes the mass of the air inside the ping pong ball. The floating ping pong ball, most of that mass is buoyed by the air. The difference is about 4.3 milligrams.micromass said:Here is the experiment with the final answer:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_8LFhakQAk
D H said:That analysis is not quite correct. There is a difference between a floating ping pong ball and a submerged one. The submerged ping pong ball system includes the mass of the air inside the ping pong ball. The floating ping pong ball, most of that mass is buoyed by the air. The difference is about 4.3 milligrams.
That said, a lab balance scale that's holding two flasks each containing about a liter of water most likely isn't going to be sensitive to that 4.3 milligram difference.
D H said:It get's lighter. Suppose we put two flasks on the scale, each containing a ping pong ball anchored from below. The scale will balance because we're measuring two identical systems. Now cut the string on the right. The ping pong ball will float, with almost all of the ball out of the water. The air will buoy the part of the ball that is sticking out of the water. The air in the ball (about 4 centigram) will be a part of what is measured on the left. On the right, that air won't register. The scale will tilt down to the left.
The way he's measuring he can't sense a 4.3 centigram difference. 4.3 centigrams is 0.43 milliliters of water. His method of filling the containers with water has to yield an experimental error that is well over that.micromass said:Well, here you go:
We can eliminate that buoyant force by the air on the containers by putting a small amount of water in the trays and then put the flasks on those trays.chingel said:Wouldn't air also buoy the higher water level that is in the container with the ball submerged? If both of the systems had the same volume they would be buoyed by the same amount, neglecting change of density with height.
D H said:That analysis is not quite correct. There is a difference between a floating ping pong ball and a submerged one. The submerged ping pong ball system includes the mass of the air inside the ping pong ball. The floating ping pong ball, most of that mass is buoyed by the air. The difference is about 4.3 milligrams.
That said, a lab balance scale that's holding two flasks each containing about a liter of water most likely isn't going to be sensitive to that 4.3 milligram difference.
D H said:We can eliminate that buoyant force by the air on the containers by putting a small amount of water in the trays and then put the flasks on those trays.
chingel said:Wouldn't air also buoy the higher water level that is in the container with the ball submerged? If both of the systems had the same volume they would be buoyed by the same amount, neglecting change of density with height.
We can eliminate that buoyant force by the air on the containers by putting a small amount of water in the trays and then put the flasks on those trays.
sophiecentaur said:I don't quite go along with that. The volume of the pingpong ball is still displacing the same amount of air, whether it's out in the air or displacing it via the water displacement. So why isn't it experiencing the same amount of upthrust in both positions?
chingel said:I'm not clear on what exactly do you do with the flasks and the water and how would that eliminate the buoyant force? I would think that two systems with equal volume would still experience the same buoyant force if the air density is the same.
Think of how your toilet works. Toggling the handle lifts the flapper valve off its seat. The flapper valve is less dense than water, so it remains buoyed off the seat until the water level drops below the valve. The valve settles back in place at this point, sealing the tank. The tank starts to fill with water. The pressure from the water seals the valve even more firmly in place.AlephZero said:Sorry, I don't understand what you are doing there, without a diagram or some equations. Putting the same amount of water on each tray wouldn't seem to affect anything.
D H said:Think of how your toilet works. Toggling the handle lifts the flapper valve off its seat. The flapper valve is less dense than water, so it remains buoyed off the seat until the water level drops below the valve. The valve settles back in place at this point, sealing the tank. The tank starts to fill with water. The pressure from the water seals the valve even more firmly in place.
The flapper valve is less dense than water. So why doesn't the water buoy the valve up, making the toilet run and run and run? The answer is that by sealing itself in place, the flapper valve stops buoyancy in its tracks. Once sealed, the forces on the flapper valve are the weight of the valve, the water pressure from above, and the air pressure from below. The net downward force is stronger than gravity alone. Once the tank fills, that valve is held firmly in place by the pressure differential until the next time the toilet valve is toggled. There is no buoyant force to lift the flapper valve off the seat until then.I'm doing the same thing here with water in the trays that hold the flasks. The water keeps air from getting under the flask and thereby stops atmospheric buoyancy on the flasks in its tracks.
3.35E-05 m^3 volume of a ping pong ball
12 N/m^3 of air
0.000402 Newtons
102 grams/N
0.041004 grams of air
micromass said:Well, here you go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ADBL7_A9qA
You have two identical steel balls hanging on opposite sides of a scale like this:
You have two buckets, one with water and one with glycerin, standing on opposite sides of a scale like this:
Both scales are initially balanced. Then you fully submerge the balls into the buckets without touching the walls.
Does the balance of the scales change? If yes, how?
But both scales are initially in balance, so the weight of both fluids is the same.derek10 said:Then I think the glycerin one will weight more as glycerin is denser than water
D H said:Think of how your toilet works. Toggling the handle lifts the flapper valve off its seat. The flapper valve is less dense than water, so it remains buoyed off the seat until the water level drops below the valve. The valve settles back in place at this point, sealing the tank. The tank starts to fill with water. The pressure from the water seals the valve even more firmly in place.
The flapper valve is less dense than water. So why doesn't the water buoy the valve up, making the toilet run and run and run? The answer is that by sealing itself in place, the flapper valve stops buoyancy in its tracks. Once sealed, the forces on the flapper valve are the weight of the valve, the water pressure from above, and the air pressure from below. The net downward force is stronger than gravity alone. Once the tank fills, that valve is held firmly in place by the pressure differential until the next time the toilet valve is toggled. There is no buoyant force to lift the flapper valve off the seat until then.I'm doing the same thing here with water in the trays that hold the flasks. The water keeps air from getting under the flask and thereby stops atmospheric buoyancy on the flasks in its tracks.
I don't agree either:D H said:That analysis is not quite correct. There is a difference between a floating ping pong ball and a submerged one. The submerged ping pong ball system includes the mass of the air inside the ping pong ball. The floating ping pong ball, most of that mass is buoyed by the air. The difference is about 4.3 milligrams.
Nothing is accelerating so all forces are Newton third law pairs with no net force on any object. For the left cup, the tape exerts a downwards force onto the ball, and the ball exerts an opposing upwards force on the tape (the source of the upwards force is boyant force, compressing the ball). The tape exerts an upwards force onto the cup, and the cups exerts a downwards onto the tape. The water exerts an upwards buoyant force onto the ball, and the ball exerts a downwards onto the water (the source of the downwards force is the tape). The cup exerts a downwards force onto the scale, the scale exerts an upwards force onto the cup. Gravity is an attractive force between cup and Earth (the Earth towards the cup, the cup towards the earth).Creator said:Buoyancy gets canceled out by Newton's 3rd law?
rcgldr said:The weight of the water for both cups is the same, but the tape exerts an internal upwards force on the cup, reducing the weight of that cup, .
I guess there's no need for spoilers now. I corrected my previous post.Creator said:If your statement above is correct ...that the weight of the cup on the left was "REDUCED" (due to the buoyant force pulling up on it).
A.T. said:But both scales are initially in balance, so the weight of both fluids is the same.
True. Again the main issue is the only external force on the left cup is gravity, while the right cup includes a support for the ball. If the left cup also used an external support to keep the ping pong ball submerged as opposed to an internal force to keep the ball submerged (downforce on the ball, upforce on the cup), then the scale would be balanced if the balls were the same size, regardless of the density of the balls.derek10 said:Yes I know, but as glycerol is denser, (I think) that means that a submerged ball will exert more force (weight) than the water submerged one.
russ_watters said:I don't agree either:
If the volume of air displaced by both systems is the same, the buoyant force provided by the air must be the same. In both cases, you have, sitting on the scale, a mass of air (in the ping pong ball), a mass of ping pong ball and a mass of water. And it is buoyed by displacing a volume of air equal to the volume of water and volume of the ping pong ball in both cases.
Whether the ping pong ball is sitting on top of the water or in the water, the volume of ping pong ball + water is the same.
Or, looking at it another way, the tension on the string is internal to the beaker and so it can't affect the force applied to the balance.
And what about the upper scale, on which the two identical balls hang?derek10 said:Yes I know, but as glycerin is denser, (I think) that means that a hung submerged ball will exert more force (weight) than the water submerged one. am I correct (probabily no)
The difference is that the ball in the left cup is held in place via an internal force, while the ball in right cup is held in place via an external force.Dadface said:Because each ball is held in equilibrium the effective density of each ball,in terms of forces, is the same as the density of the surrounding water. Immersing the balls is equivelent to adding water of volume equal to that of each ball. By Archimedes principle the additional force measured due to the prescence of each ball is the same on both sides and equal to the upthrust. I think Aleph zero gave the best explanation in post 6.
OmCheeto said:...
I have to go do some shopping. I will pick up some ping pong balls and do the experiment. I will also apparently have to find a couple of dead flies, as wikipedia says that's how many it takes to make 4 centigrams.
The things I do for science...
A.T. said:And what about the upper scale, on which the two identical balls hang?
rcgldr said:The difference is that the ball in the left cup is held in place via an internal force, while the ball in right cup is held in place via an external force.
For the left cup, the buoyant force minus the weight of the 2.7 gram ping pong ball is opposed by internal forces that exert a downward force on the ball and an upward force on the cup. It's a closed system where the only external force is gravity, and the weight of that system is weight of the cup, water, and ball (ignoring whatever is used to hold the ball in place).
For the right cup, the weight of the steel ball minus the buoyant force is opposed by an external force (the wire from above), and there's no internal force that exerts an upward force on the cup. It's an open system, and the weight of the system is the weight of the cup, water, and the weight of water displaced by the ball (ignoring whatever is used to hold the ball in place), and assuming the steel ball is the same size as the 2 cm radius ping pong ball, the right cup system weighs 33.5 grams - 2.7 grams more than the left cup. The right cup system would also be heavier by the same amount if a ping pong ball was held submerged in the water by a rod from above (again an external force).
You can imagine the string being replaced by a massless spring.gmax137 said:Trying to get clear on what's happening with the ping pong ball. If the string is holding it down, then the string is pulling up on the beaker. But, is it like compressing a spring, and the bottom end of the spring bears against the bottom of the beaker? So the beaker sees the string pulling up, but the spring is pushing down, so there's no net force on the beaker? I don't quite see that as being right.
I think you are wrong with regard to buoyancy. Buoyancy is not a fundamental force. It's a consequence of a pressure gradient (and pressure in turn is not a fundamental force). It can be defeated.russ_watters said:I don't agree either:
If the volume of air displaced by both systems is the same, the buoyant force provided by the air must be the same. In both cases, you have, sitting on the scale, a mass of air (in the ping pong ball), a mass of ping pong ball and a mass of water. And it is buoyed by displacing a volume of air equal to the volume of water and volume of the ping pong ball in both cases.
Doc Al said:You can imagine the string being replaced by a massless spring.
Vanadium 50 said:I'd go further. I'd replace the string with a post. And then the post with a tube. And then a tube that is open at both ends. Then replace the whole system with glass, so you have a funny shaped beaker. And then with an ordinary beaker with the same volume of water.
At each step you have the same weight.