Anomalous Quasar Observations 200k Light Year Jet? And So On.

[Saul]

If Astronomers stated that they had using the Hubble telescope found a remote island on the Earth with 1000 meter tall Homo sapiens we would based on scientific knowledge and logic concerning the biological limits of animal structure (any land based animal that moves on the surface of the earth) and human genetics, state that is not possible. The observations, the assumptions for those observations, or the associated calculations themselves must be incorrect.

Is there analogous to the physical impossibility of 1000 meter tall Homo sapiens, a similar impossibility of a 200,000 light year quasar jet?

Our Milky Way galaxy is 100,000 light years in diameter.

Now when one looks at the observations of the 200,000 light year jet the objects in question are in a straight line.

Obviously the quasar has intrinsic movement so during the ejection process it will have moved. If it is 200,000 light years long it has at least 200,000 years of movement as the ejection process is occurring to have moved. What one would expect is a curved jet not a straight jet.

It should be noted that there are a whole set of peculiar quasar observations.

For example the massive object in the center of the Milky Way and the largest galaxy in our Cluster Andromeda are baby quasars. Based on the lowest possible estimate of gas in the center of both galaxies the emissions associated with these baby massive objects should based on the quasar unified model (unified is the name used for a classical black hole and an accretion disk) be 10 to 100,000 times greater than what is observed.

An obvious question is why in the local universe are there baby massive objects? Is that just a peculiar statically oddity such as people winning the lottery three times in the same year?

Another puzzle is the paradox of youth stars and high velocity blue stars. (I will add a couple of comments to explain the observations and paradox concerning these stars.)

Another approach rather than starting with a toy model theory that was developed at the turn of the century independent of observations and the associated mechanisms, is to look at the modern observations and then develop mechanisms that are in agreement with what is observed.

As noted in the MECO thread, the Classical Black Hole model is based on observations an incorrect toy model. Observations indicate there is a massive magnetic field that is produced when massive objects collapse. That is not surprising based on observations of neutron stars and magtars.

What is interesting is it appears these super massive objects change, evolve based on observations over time.

Before stating one's position concerning this subject or the position of other people, look at and think about the observations. It seems reasonable that an analysis of the observations will lead to the solution. It seems less likely that if one starts with a theory and mechanisms and then modifies or ignore observations that that process or methodology will solve the problem.

An irrational and ineffective methodology (the methodology of starting with a theory rather than looking at the anomalous observations as a set and then constructing theories and mechanisms.) makes it difficult if not impossible to solve the problem. (i.e. The mechanisms and theories must have a physical connection with the observation as opposed to toy models which have their own logic but have no connection with reality. John Hogan called in his book the "End of Science" the practice of that type of science (construction of toy models) as ironic science as it seems science like but will never solve the problem and in fact blocks or inhibits the solution of the problem.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3C_273

Large-Scale Jet

The quasar has a large-scale visible jet, which measures ~200 kly (~62 kpc) long having an apparent size of 23″.[3] In 1995 Optical imaging of the jet using the Hubble Space Telescope revealed a structured morphology evidenced by repeated bright knots interlaced by areas of weak emission.[3]

3C 273 is a quasar located in the constellation Virgo. It was the first quasar ever to be identified.

It is the optically-brightest quasar in our sky (m ~ 12.9), and one of the closest with a redshift, z, of 0.158.[4] A luminosity distance of DL = 2.4 Giga light years (749 Mpc) may be calculated from z.[3] It is also one of the most luminous quasars known, with an absolute magnitude of -26.7. Its mass has been measured to be 886 ± 187 million solar masses through broad emission-line reverberation mapping.[5]

Contents

This observation seems to support the existence of a massive magnetic field attached to the object.

http://arxiv.org/abs/0806.4231v1

Time Variation of Rotation Measure Gradient in 3C 273 Jet

The existence of a gradient in the Faraday rotation measure (RM) of the quasar 3C 273 jet is confirmed by follow-up observations. A gradient transverse to the jet axis is seen for more than 20 mas in projected distance. Taking account of the viewing angle, we estimate it to be more than 100 pc. Comparing to the distribution of the RM in 1995, we detect a time variation of it at the same distance from the core over 7 yr. We discuss the origin of the Faraday rotation based on this rapid time variation. We rule out foreground media such as a narrow-line region, and suggest a helical magnetic field in the sheath region as the origin of this gradient of the RM.

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0605530v1

Shedding New Light on the 3C 273 Jet with the Spitzer Space Telescope

We have performed infrared imaging of the jet of the quasar 3C 273 at wavelengths 3.6 and 5.8 microns with the Infrared Array Camera (IRAC) on the Spitzer Space Telescope. When combined with the radio, optical and X-ray measurements, the IRAC photometry clearly shows that the optical emission is dominated by the high-energy component of the jet, not by the radio synchrotron component, as had been assumed to date. The high-energy component may be due to a second synchrotron component or to IC scattering of ambient photons. In the former case, we argue that the acceleration of protons exceeding 10^16 eV or possibly even to 10^19 eV would be taking place in the jet. In contrast, the IC model, into which highly relativistic Doppler beaming has to be incorporated, requires very low-energy electrons (~ 1 MeV). The present polarization data in the radio and optical would favor the former interpretation in the case of the 3C 273 jet. Sensitive and detailed measurements of optical polarization are important to establish the radiation mechanism responsible for the high-energy emission. The present study offers new clues as to the controversial origin of the X-ray emission seen in many quasar jets.

 

[turbo]

Good luck, Saul. Observational astronomy fares poorly on this forum whenever observations challenge theory and pedagoguary. Tread lightly.

 

[Saul]

Good luck, Saul. Observational astronomy fares poorly on this forum whenever observations challenge theory and pedagoguary. Tread lightly.

I think in the case of this problem, the wind is starting to change. The observational data has improved. The anomalies remain.

There appears to be groups of connected anomalies. The spiral galaxy rotational anomaly. The Holmberg effect. Disney's discovery that the properties of spiral galaxies are patterned following a single unknown parameter (including for example the peculiarly tight Tully-Fisher relationship). Peculiar patterns in galaxy clusters. The fact that specific fundamental galaxy structures and patterns of galaxy morphology cannot be explained by the dark matter hypothesis and its mechanisms.

The fact that dark matter has not been discovered after 20 years of experimental searching. A negative finding for dark matter is significant as all agree there must be a physical reason for the rotational anomaly. It seem reasonable that these groups of anomalies have a common cause.

This field seems to be similar to geophysics when they had their tectonic plate breakthrough. (There was in geophysics a group of anomalies that were connected. Such as for example rare geological mineral formations that occurred at the edges of opposing continents and the fact the continents fit together.)

 

[Mu naught]

Honestly I stopped reading after you started going on about some island nonsense. If you're going to post a book at least stay on topic...

Anyway, what's hard to believe? Black holes can eject matter at speeds very near the speed of light, and if one were to do so for 200,000 years - a blink of an eye in cosmological terms - then you'd get a jet 200,000 light years long. Why do you think it has to be curved? The particles will be moving in the same direction as the galaxy, what is hard to understand about that?

 

[Saul]

Honestly I stopped reading after you started going on about some island nonsense. If you're going to post a book at least stay on topic...

Anyway, what's hard to believe? Black holes can eject matter at speeds very near the speed of light, and if one were to do so for 200,000 years - a blink of an eye in cosmological terms - then you'd get a jet 200,000 light years long. Why do you think it has to be curved? The particles will be moving in the same direction as the galaxy, what is hard to understand about that?

Something is ejecting matter at the speed of light. As the massive object has a strong magnetic field attached to it, based on observational data, it seems it is not a classical BH.

The force that ejects the particles from the quasar is different than the force that moves the quasar.

The quasar is moved by other objects in its vicinity. The two motions are independent.

There are also dust clouds which appear to be ejected by the quasars. It is difficult to explain how dust forms as opposed to stars forming.

In order to confirm the RM gradient across the 3C 273 jet, we made a follow-up observation using multifrequency VLBA polarimetry. The systematic gradient across the jet is confirmed for more than 100 pc along the jet, and the trend of the RM gradient is consistent with that revealed by previous observations. Since the amounts of the Faraday rotation exceed 90◦, the origin of the Faraday rotation should be in the foreground of the emitting jet.

On the other hand, we detected a time variation in the distribution of the RM in comparison to that in 1995, and this rapid time variation rules out the possibility that a foreground magnetized cloud independent of the jet, such as a narrow-line region, is responsible for the origin of the Faraday rotation. Therefore, the sheath (my comment magnetic sheath) around the ultra-relativistic jet is likely to be the origin.

 

[Saul]

Honestly I stopped reading after you started going on about some island nonsense. If you're going to post a book at least stay on topic...

Anyway, what's hard to believe? Black holes can eject matter at speeds very near the speed of light, and if one were to do so for 200,000 years - a blink of an eye in cosmological terms - then you'd get a jet 200,000 light years long. Why do you think it has to be curved? The particles will be moving in the same direction as the galaxy, what is hard to understand about that?

There other anomalies associated with quasars.

They show almost no change in metallicity with redshift. The high redshift quasars have super solar or solar metallicity which is counter to how the intergalactic gas is believe to evolve. (i.e. Super nova ejection enriches the gas with more metals over time.)

The quasars do not show time diluation with redshift which is counter to what is observed for other astronomical objects.

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/0311/0311454v1.pdf

Quasar Winds as Dust Factories at High Redshift

Much more puzzling is the lack of any metallicity evolution over the wide redshift range covered by our sample. Indeed, most galaxies at redshift larger than 2 should be undergoing (or have undergone) strong star formation, and therefore should be characterized by a differential chemical enrichment as a function of redshift (specifically, higher metallicities at lower redshifts).

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2006MmSAI..77..635F

Evolution of high-redshift quasars

The spectral energy distributions of luminous quasars show little evolution out to high redshift.There is growing evidence from emission line ratio measurements that quasar broad emission line regions have roughly solar or even higher metallicities at z > 4 (e.g., Hamann & Ferland 1993), similar to that in low redshift quasars. Dietrich et al. (2003b) found the FeII/MgII ratio to have roughly the same value in a sample of z < 5 quasars as at lower redshift, suggesting that the metallicity of quasar emission line region remains high to even earlier epochs.

 

[Saul]

Milky Way’s Galactic Core, Stellar “Paradox of Youth”


This comment is what is known as the “paradox of youth” problem which is how to explain the recent discover of very young stars, massive, short lived stars that are located very, very, close to the galactic core. The “paradox of youth” problem is that the stars in question have a lifetime that is at most 100 MM years and it is very difficult to create a gas cloud with sufficient density to enable that number of very young stars to form so close to the galactic core. Half of stars in questions are located in three tight clusters of stars that are estimated to be 0.5 MM years old. There is no evidence of current star formation in the locations where the young stars in question are found which is puzzling, but perhaps not expected as the simulations indicate that it is very difficult to get gas clouds to form that close to the Milky Way’s core massive compact object.

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0508106v1

The following are excerpts from the above review paper “Stellar Processes Near the Massive Black Hole in the Galactic Center” by Tal Alexander which summarizes the observations and different hypotheses that have been developed to try to explain this paradox.

About half of the young stars in the region are found today in three particularly massive, young (.5 Myr) clusters: The Quintuplet (∼30 pc from the center in projection, M ∼104M⊙…, The Arches (∼30 pc from the center in projection, M &104M⊙, R∼0.2 pc, …, and the central cluster around the MBH (Figer 2003). The three clusters contain in total hundreds of MS O-stars, tens of Wolf-Rayet (WR) stars and a few luminous blue variable stars (§2.2), which are ∼10% of all the massive stars (initial mass>20M⊙) in the entire Galaxy.

It has proved difficult to find a satisfactory explanation of how they could have formed so close to the massive black hole, or alternatively, of how they could have migrated inward from farther away in the course of their short lifespans. This is the so-called “paradox of youth”. The question applies to any of the young stars in the inner parsec, but particularly so to the central cluster of the “S-stars”, which exist a mere few hundredths of a parsec from the massive black hole. The problem of the young stars has become one of the major outstanding issues in galactic core research.

The young population in the inner ∼1 pc is often loosely described as the “OB-stars”. This general designation can be misleading, as it fails to convey the significant systematic differences that exist in the population. An important open question is the nature of the connection, if any, between the S-stars inside ∼0.04 pc and the luminous emission line stars further out, on the 0.04–0.4 pc scale. While it is plausible to assume that these are different components of the same parent population, it should be noted the two groups have distinct locations, kinematics and stellar properties. The stars detected so far in the two young star disks at p∼1”–10” are luminous OB supergiants, giants and WR stars of various types (Genzel et al. 2003b; Paumard et al. 2001; Paumard et al. 2004).


The solutions proposed so far for the riddle of the young stars (see reviews by Genzel et al. 2003b; Ghez et al. 2005) fall into three main categories: unusual modes of star formation near the MBH; rejuvenation of old stars from the local population; and dynamic migration or capture from farther out, where stars can form. While each has some attractive features, none is quite satisfactory. The paradox of youth remains unsolved at this time.

 

[Saul]

The following is a paper that discusses the discovery of two discs of stars that encircle the galaxy’s massive compact object. The stars in the two discs all formed roughly 6 million years ago and were estimated to have all formed within a million years of each other. The two discs are roughly at right angles to each other.

The authors of the paper rule out migration of stars from outer regions to that location and propose the stars in question formed from two gas clouds. That explanation has some problem explaining where the gas cloud is now (proposed to have dissipated) in addition to an explanation as to why the stars in question are disproportional large. There is also the unanswered question as to why there was a near simultaneous creation of two discs of stars and why there is a geometric relationship between the two star discs. (Roughly 90 degrees from one discs plane, to another.) The authors note they do not have an explanation for the simultaneous formation of the star discs.


The Two Young Star Disks in the Central Parsec of the Galaxy: Properties, Dynamics and Formation by T. Paumard , R. Genzel, F. Martins, et al.

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0601268v2

We do not have an explanation for the near simultaneous occurrence of two star formation events 6 Myr ago, followed by little since then, and preceded by little for tens of Myr (Blum et al. 2003). It is unavoidable to conclude that the epoch 4–9 Myr ago must have been a very special one for the Galactic Center. It is interesting and relevant to note in this context that the other two young, massive star clusters in the central 50 pc, the Arches and Quintuplet cluster, have comparable stellar masses (104M⊙), stellar content (WC/WN etc.), ages (2–7 Myr), and (flat) mass functions (Figer et al. 1999; Figer 2003; Stolte
et al. 2005).

Comment:
The two discs of stars are slightly farther from the galactic core than the large paradox of youth stars. The authors note the problem of the black hole ripping apart the gas cloud with tidal forces but hypothesis a collision of a gas cloud to create the necessary density.

There are multiple problems with the gas cloud origin hypothesis to explain the galactic centre star clusters and rings of stars. The star clusters and the two rings of stars appear to have formed at the same time, for the group of stars in question. There is no explanation as to why a large group of stars would suddenly all form at the same time. The authors note they do have an explanation for the sudden formation of groups of stars.

There is a second problem of how to create a cluster of large stars in the same close area (30 stars in less than light year distance). The highly luminous stars will heat the gas cloud, stopping it from collapsing.

These problems are in addition to the problem of how to get a dense enough gas cloud in this area that not be torn apart by the massive compact object.

 

[turbo]

Here is a paper that might interest you

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2006MmSAI..77..635F

 

[Saul]

Here is a paper that might interest you

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2006MmSAI..77..635F

Fan's paper is interesting. It curious that observationally there is a lack of quasar metallicity or spectral evolution with redshift. The quasar space density evolution is also interesting.

Bell's papers examine other quasar properties and finds there is a set of anomalies that appear to challenge the assumed distance of the quasar.

The finding that quasars do not exhibit time dilation with redshift is also interesting. If that observation is correct it is possible quasars are significantly closer than assumed.

From observational analysis it appears one can attempt to form an explanation for what is causing the redshift anomalies. i.e. The quasar process is altering the redshift of its spectrum and the spectrum of galaxies in the cluster. The affect depending on the size of the quasar (differentiating between the parent and the smaller ejection products) and where the quasar is in its life cycle.

I must admit however that I cannot explain the Lyman Alpha absorption in the spectrum of high redshift quasars. I have looked at the analysis and theory of the lyman alpha absorption. It seems sound. The Lyman Alpha absorption observation and interpretation seems to me to indicate that quasars are distance objects. I am now looking for any anomalies concerning the Lyman alpha absorption observations which might be a clue to explain the dichotomy.

From the observational data there appears to be sets of unresolved paradoxes. Many people have an opinion concerning this subject but have not read the papers or thought of the issues from either side of the problem.

Evolution of high-redshift quasars

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2006MmSAI..77..635F

Evolution of high-redshift quasars

–In sharp contrast to the strong density evolution is the lack of strong evolution of quasar spectral properties. The strength of emission lines remains roughly constant through cosmic history. The immediate environment of quasars matures very early on, and are somewhat decoupled from the cosmic evolution. In other words, quasar emission looks the same even up to the highest redshift, which implies that the knowledge about quasar emission we learned from local universe can be applied to the highest redshift.

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0603169

Six Peaks Visible in the Redshift Distribution of 46,400 SDSS Quasars Agree with the Preferred Redshifts Predicted by the Decreasing Intrinsic Redshift Model

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0807/0807.2641.pdf

Evidence against non-cosmological redshifts of QSOs in SDSS data


http://arxiv.org/abs/0711.4531v2

Evidence in Support of the Local Quasar Model from Inner Jet Structure and Angular Motions in Radio Loud AGN

Radio loud jetted sources with and without extended inner jet structure show good agreement with the simple ballistic ejection scenario proposed in the decreasing intrinsic redshift (DIR) model, where, because of projection effects, those that show the most obvious extended structure and large angular motions are assumed to have jets that lie close to the plane of the sky, and those with little or no structure and small angular motions are assumed to have jets that are coming almost directly towards us. This simple model also predicts several other relations seen in the raw data that, in some cases, may be less easily explained if the redshifts are cosmological and relativistic ejection is required. In particular, for radio-loud sources the source number density is found to be high for sources that are not Doppler boosted but low for highly boosted sources. This is opposite to what is expected, suggesting that Doppler boosting may not be involved at all, which would be in agreement with the DIR model. If so, the reality of relativistic beaming in quasar jets, the assumption of which has been the very foundation of the superluminal motion explanation in the cosmological redshift (CR) model, would then be questioned.

 

[Saul]

The following is a link to Hawkins' paper that shows quasars appear to not exhibit time dilation. There is currently no physical explanation for that observation.

In addition there is a link to the papers that discuss whether is or is not evidence of preferred redshifts in the quasar data.

http://arxiv.org/abs/0812.3130v1

The Peculiar Shape of the _app − z Distribution Seen in Radio Loud AGN Jets Is Explained Simply and Naturally In the Local Quasar Model

Recently, it was argued that the log(z)-m_{v} plot of 106,000 AGN galaxies could be interpreted as an evolutionary path followed by local AGN galaxies as they age. It was suggested that these objects are born as quasars with a high intrinsic redshift component that decreases with time. When the intrinsic component is large it causes them to be pushed above the standard candle line for brightest radio galaxies on a log(z)-m_{v} plot. In the jets of radio loud AGN galaxies, Beta_(app) is the apparent transverse velocity of the ejected material relative to the speed of light. In the cosmological redshift (CR) model the Beta_(app) vs z distribution has a peculiar shape, and there have been several attempts to explain it. In agreement with the model proposed to explain the log(z)-m_{v} plot, it is shown here that the peculiar shape of the Beta_(app)-z distribution in the CR model is exactly what is expected if the sources are local but their large intrinsic redshifts are assumed to be cosmological in the calculation of Beta_(app). This result not only supports our previous interpretation of the log(z)-m_{v} plot, it further implies that if a large component of the redshift is intrinsic a similar effect should be visible when other parameters are plotted vs z. Examining this it is also found that the results are consistent with the local model.

http://arxiv.org/abs/0911.5700v1

Selection Effects in the SDSS Quasar Sample: The Filter Gap Footprint

In the Sloan Digital Sky Survey (SDSS) quasars are targeted using colors and anything that can cause the identifying characteristics of the colors to disappear can create problems in the source selection process. Quasar spectra contain strong emission lines that can seriously affect the colors in photometric systems in which the transmission characteristics vary abruptly and significantly with redshift. When a strong line crosses a gap between two filter passbands the color effects induced by the line change abruptly, and there is also a dimming in apparent brightness compared to those redshifts where the strong line is inside a filter passband where the transmission is high. The strong emission lines in quasars, combined with the varying detectability introduced by the transmission pattern of the five filters, will result in a filter-gap footprint being imprinted on the N(z) distribution, with more quasars being missed when a strong line falls in a filter gap. It is shown here that a periodicity of Delta(z)~0.6 is imprinted on the redshift-number distribution by this selection effect. Because this effect cannot be rigorously corrected for, astronomers need to be aware of it in any investigation that uses the SDSS N(z) distribution. Its presence also means that the SDSS quasar data cannot be used either to confirm or to rule out the Delta(z)~0.6 redshift period reported previously in other, unrelated quasar data.

http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1004/1004.1824v1.pdf

On time dilation in quasar light curves
In this paper we set out to measure time dilation in quasar light curves. In order to detect the effects of time dilation, sets of light curves from two monitoring programmes are used to construct Fourier power spectra covering timescales from 50 days to 28 years. Data from high and low redshift samples are compared to look for the changes expected from time dilation. The main result of the paper is that quasar light curves do not show the effects of time dilation. Several explanations are discussed, including the possibility that time dilation effects are exactly offset by an increase in timescale of variation associated with black hole growth (my comment: There is no physical explanation at to why or how quasar properties would change with redshift in a manner that would cancel out time dilation affects.), or that the variations are caused by microlensing (my comment: subsequent observational analysis has disproved the microlensing hypothesis) in which case time dilation would not be expected.

 

[cristo]

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