The Hardest Logic/puzzle Question Of All Time

[gravenewworld]

George Boolos, a brilliant logician claimed this puzzle to be one of the hardest logic problems of all time.

You are stranded on an Island and on that island are 3 all knowing all powerful gods. One god is the god of truth, who always tells the truth and can never lie. The second god is the god of lies, he always lies and never tells the truth. The 3rd god is the god of chaos, he tells both lies and truths, however, completely randomly. The gods appear as identical twins, they all look the same. The gods also speak a language that you do not understand, except that you know that uga and booga are the responses yes and no (you however do not know which word is yes and which is no). You can only ask 3 yes or no questions to the gods in order to figure out which god is which. What 3 questions do you ask?

 

[gravenewworld]

Don't be cheap and google the answer either.

 

[dextercioby]

It's damn hard. :yuck: I don't want to burn half of my available neurons with a logics problem.
Sorry.

Daniel.

 

[Pseudopod]

If you ask all three gods one question, does that count as asking one question or three?

 

[gravenewworld]

3. In the end you can only have a total of 3 responses.

 

[RandallB]

I believe this works – I’ll type in WHITE
GODS 1 2 3 are GODS of T F C
Even an all knowing god of Truth or False cannot know, or be able to reply, to what the God of Chaos might say.

Ask God 1 “if I ask god 2 ‘is God 3 god of truth’”
no reply 2 = C Y/ N; C= 1 or 2

IF 2=C
Ask God 1 "if I ask god 3 'if he is god of truth'"
Y 1= T 3=F; N 1=F 3=T -done in two-
IF C= 1 or 3
Ask God 3 “if I ask god 1 is God 2 god of truth’”
no reply 1 =C Y or N 3= C

IF C=3
Ask God 1 “if I ask God 2 ‘if He is god of truth’”
Y 1= T 2=F ; N 1=F 2=T
IF C=1
Ask God 3 “if I ask God 2 ‘if He is god of truth’”
Y 3= T 2=F ; N 3=F 2=T

Good one, and no I’ve never seen before.

RB

 

[Bartholomew]

Even an all knowing god of Truth or False cannot know, or be able to reply, to what the God of Chaos might say.

Good idea!

Ask God 1 "if I ask god 3 'if he is god of truth'"
Y 1= T 3=F; N 1=F 3=T

You don't know whether "uga" is true and "booga" is false, or vice versa, so this doesn't work. The same goes for your last 2 questions.

 

[Bartholomew]

Okay, I got it.

Number the gods 1, 2, and 3. Ask god 1: Would god 2 say that 2+2=4? If he answers, then remember his answer and ask god 2: would god 3 say that 2+2=4?

If god 1 doesn't answer your question then god 2 is the chaos god. You now have 2 questions to determine which god is which from gods 1 and 2. So ask god 1: would god 3 say that 2+2=4?

If god 2 doesn't answer your question then god 3 is the chaos god. You have god 1's answer. And if gods 1 and 2 both answer, then god 1 is the chaos god and you have god 2's answer.

So you've pinpointed the chaos god. Call the remaining gods A and B, so that A is the one who you have already asked the "would god B say that 2+2=4" question of.

However god A answered, it meant "no," so now you know which word is "no." Now ask god A, "would god B say you are the lying god?" If he says yes, god A is the truth telling god and god B is the liar; if he says no, god A is the liar and god B is the truth telling god.

 

[gravenewworld]

I'll give you a hint, Boolos was able to publish a solution to this problem WITHOUT figuring out what uga and booga mean. The questions you have to ask ARE NOT EASY questions. They require complex questions to be asked.

 

[gravenewworld]

maybe I should clarify further, each god has to answer your question, and they will only answer yes or no.

 

[Bartholomew]

If you asked the truth god what the chaos god would say if you asked the chaos god if 2+2=4, what do YOU think the truth god would say? He can't say anything, as Randall pointed out.

Perhaps Boolos simply overlooked this.

 

[RandallB]

OOps -- messed up on the (you however do not know which word is yes and which is no) part.

hint, WITHOUT figuring out what and booga mean. questions ARE NOT EASY …. require complex questions.

So to extend the hint, we must ask questions that can be answered.
Complex can include something like:
If you are not God T
all the statements in list 1 are true or at least one in list 2 is true
but if you not God F
all the statements in list 3 are true or at least one in list 4 is true
Where the statements in the lists are: ……

Plus a useful couple of statements would be "the last reply from C was 'yes'"
"the last reply form C was 'uga'"

Also some "If ? is ? then statement ? goes in list ?" might help
Even “ as to true or false, if statement ? and statement ? are both the same then statement ? is in list ? and list ?.

That should give a fairly wide area of the complex to make some ugly looking yes or no questions!

Plus it's likely nessesary not to find out what uga means, because that would require wasting a question to get unneeded info, and why Boolos didn't find what the word for Yes was.

If anyone does get this please put it white.
RB

 

[honestrosewater]

Eh, you mean asking each god the same question counts as asking 3 questions, right?
Asking conditionals counts as one question? Does the liar lie about a conditinal as a whole or about each of its propositions? That is, if I ask, "Does S imply P," and S is false and P is true, will the liar answer as if S were false and P were true or as if S were true and P were false?

 

[RandallB]

S is false and P is true, will the liar answer as if S were false and P were true or as if S were true and P were false?

Only these one answer given to you is fasle or not. As Gods they can correctly figure out any problem.
If is was as you fear asking the false god is 4+5=9 would mean a false calculation of 8 for 4+5 would NOT = 9, and the false would have to say YES. That would be Chaos and you already have one of those.

What ever the logic - it must come down to one yes or no (I mean ooga or booga) reply. Have you stopped beating your wife? Cannot resolve to a meaning full answer.

He already said yes, only three replys total.

ALSO altough he didn't say so - I think you must address the Gods seperatly so you cannot get by with addressing them as a groups saying.
1. "God of Truth are we alone?"
2. "God of Lies are we alone?"
As you'd have it figured out in just two guestions, by getting four answers as just the act of answering is a reply that gives infromation.

The answer is in another thread, so those that want to work on this can do so from here.

 

[honestrosewater]

RandallB,
Your answer doesn't address my question. 4+5=9 is not a conditional. I've read the solution, and the solver implicitly assumes that Liar lies about compound propositions as a whole but not about their parts.
And, yes, you have to address every question to a god- as in, the first, second or third god. It wouldn't be much of a puzzle otherwise. :tongue2:

 

[RandallB]

I'm assuming any God will truthfully and accurately work thru all conditionals just as accurately as non-conditionals to come up with a yes or no answer and then give the a)correct b)opposite or c)random reply as their answer.

 

[Icebreaker]

If you asked the truth god what the chaos god would say if you asked the chaos god if 2+2=4, what do YOU think the truth god would say? He can't say anything, as Randall pointed out.

Perhaps Boolos simply overlooked this.

Not necessarily. Let's assume that the Truth God knows what the Chaos God will say (they communicate with each other through telepathy or something), and whether it is a lie won't matter, because he is telling the truth about what the chaos god will say.

 

[Bartholomew]

If the chaos god knew his own answer beforehand, then the chaos god's answer wouldn't be truly random.

 

[Your.Master]

If the chaos god knew his own answer beforehand, then the chaos god's answer wouldn't be truly random.

What if the random determination is made before the question is asked?

As in:

Chaos God's thoughts: "Okay, next time I answer false."

Brave Adventurer: "Okay, I'd like a Pizza, hold the anchovies."

Chaos God: "FALSE!"

Chaos God's thoughts: "Okay, next time, I say true."

Brave Adventurer: "What on Earth...you're very strange, do you know that?"

Chaos God: "TRUE!"

Chaos God's thoughts: "Okay, next time, I say true again. This is good fun."

-- except that he of course speaks in ooga and booga rather than true and false.

Then the all knowing Truth God could know the answer (telepathy, however, is out of the question: the truth god knows that answering the question could change the answer.

So you might think to yourself, what if I asked the Truth God about two questions down the road?

Well...maybe the Chaos God has already "rolled the dice" for the next two or three questions, which after all are all he needs random values for.

Of course, telepathically asking is out of the question: the Truth God would potentially change the Chaos God's answer by asking. Sort of like Quantum Mechanics.

 

[Bartholomew]

If the chaos god decides he will say true before he says it, then his answer is determined by the fact of his decision, and not random. An outcome is perfectly random with a certain probability only if no information may be obtained about what that outcome may be other than that probability.

 

[Icebreaker]

It's simple: it's random if you don't know how it's done.

 

[Bartholomew]

That's a weak, relativistic definition of random (though practical). A god of chaos would use the much stronger form I have described.

 

[Your.Master]

Although for the sake of the question I assume you're right, Bartholemew, I don't think your perfect randomness holds in this situation since we have three omniscient beings involved here, which, although completely impossible, contradict the conception of randomness in a big way. My example above is to illustrate the one and only way the random information could be found beforehand: via the "mechanism" of omniscience.

 

[Alkatran]

Guys, the intent of the puzzle is there, don't bother worrying what happens when you ask another god a question about the god of chaos: just assume the answer will be as random as a chaos god answer.

As for the puzzle. I can solve a simpler form of it... If I can ask 3 questions to any of the gods and I know what truth/false is:

Ask the god on the left:
"If I asked you if the god on the right was the God of Chaos, what would you answer?"
The form of the question will ensure that the God of falsehood and god of truth will give a true answer.

If he says "true":
Either a) you are talking to the god of chaos and he is deceiving you or b) the one on the right is chaos. However, you KNOW that the god in the center is either truth or false and not the god of chaos.

if he says "false":
There is no way that the god on the right is the god of chaos. Either a) you are talking to the god of chaos and he happens to give the right answer or b) the god or truth/falsehood is giving you the right answer. So the god on teh right is not the god of chaos.

Alright, now ask the god that you know is not the god of chaos:
If I were to ask you if the god on the left was the god of chaos, what would you answer?

if he says "true"
You know who the god of chaos is, use your final question to figure out who is truth.
if he says "false"
You know the god on the right is the god of chaos. You'll need to ask the god on the left or center again to eliminate that last truth/falsehood answer.

 

[lawtonfogle]

you ask the question 'Will your next word will be no" to all three then...

the god of truth can not answer because it will be a lie either way

the god of lie he will answer either yes or no because both will be lies

the god of chaos will only answer if he lieing

at least this way you figure out which one is the god of truth

can anyone help me figure out the last two, and since the god of truth does not answer, it does not count againts the 3 responses

 

[RandallB]

at least you figurethe god of truth

Reread the first post - you asked three your done, they will all answer either uga or booga and you don't know much.
The answer is posted in another thread - you can do a search.

 

[wikkidwife]

mmmkay, I'm still thinking about this puzzle, and as I think about it I come across some questions of my own: how can these three gods appear as identical twins? would they not appear as triplets? and secondly, if they speak a language that I don't understand, do they understand my language? If they do understand my language why don't they just answer in "yes" and "no" ? And if they don't understand my language then it doesn't matter what questions I ask them, does it?

Okay, I'm just stalling really. (I just make up BS to divert from the fact that I'm really not that smart).

I'll keep thinkin about it.

 

[lawtonfogle]

Reread the first post - you asked three your done, they will all answer either uga or booga and you don't know much.
The answer is posted in another thread - you can do a search.

but since the god of truth does not give a reply, it does not matter

3. In the end you can only have a total of 3 responses.

this is about the fifth post. It does not say 3 questions but 3 responses. One of the gods (the god of truth) cannot answer because either way it will be a lie.

 

[lawtonfogle]

mmmkay, I'm still thinking about this puzzle, and as I think about it I come across some questions of my own: how can these three gods appear as identical twins? would they not appear as triplets? and secondly, if they speak a language that I don't understand, do they understand my language? If they do understand my language why don't they just answer in "yes" and "no" ? And if they don't understand my language then it doesn't matter what questions I ask them, does it?

Okay, I'm just stalling really. (I just make up BS to divert from the fact that I'm really not that smart).

I'll keep thinkin about it.

they are all knowing, so they do, but they will only speak to you in the language of their kind

 

[lawtonfogle]

I got it

Rember this part

The gods also speak a language that you do not understand, except that you know that uga and booga are the responses yes and no (you however do not know which word is yes and which is no).

And this

3. In the end you can only have a total of 3 responses.

The way to figure out which god is which is to ask question that certain god(s) can't answer.
Example:

If you ask the god of truth 'Will the next word you say be 'no'?'
The god of truth can't answer while the others can. If he says yes, he is saying 'The next word I say will be no.', but it is instead no, and the other way around if he answers no. So not even knowing if his answer is yes or no is important, because what ever he answers it will be a lie, and since he can't lie, then he can't answer.

Well we now have the god of truth figured out. And if you ask two of the gods the question and they answer, then you know the last one is the god of truth. In a worst case scenairo, you will have one question left to ask, all that you need to find out which one of the gods are which one.

Now you ask one of the remaining gods the question 'Will the next word you say be yes?'. If it is the god of lies, he can't answer. If he answers yes then he is saying 'The next word I say will be no.' because he lies when he say yes. The same logic is applied if he answers no. So the god of lies can't answer without telling the truth, so he will not answer. If the god does answer it is the god of chaos.

Now you know who two of the gods are, then the last one is the god of chaos, or lies, according if he answered the last question or not. In the best case scenairo, you have one question to ask.

Now use it to try to find out what uga and booga mean.

 

[rygar]

i think you guys are missing something

you can't find out the god of truth by asking "will the next word you say mean 'no'?"

it's true that the god of lies will always be able to answer this and the god of truth will never be able to answer this, but the god of chaos will sometimes be able to answer the question and sometimes not. so you can narrow down the god of lies to two gods, and the same goes for the god of truth... but you can't differentiate between anyone god and the god of chaos by asking "will the next word you say mean no(/yes)'?"

 

[moving finger]

The way to figure out which god is which is to ask question that certain god(s) can't answer.

Except this does not work - read post #10 where it was stated quite clearly :

"each god has to answer your question, and they will only answer yes or no."

In other words, interpreting this literally, no god has the possibility "not to answer"
MF

 

[JamesU]

Great question-IT'S SOO HARD! :grumpy:

 

[gravenewworld]

If anyone wants the solution let me know i will PM you it. I posted the answer a while ago, but it looks like you can't go that far back in the threads.

 

[gravenewworld]

wait nm ignore what i just said