- #2,906
Giordano
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tsutsuji said:
?
5.4 Mbq/cm3 corresponds to 5 400 000 000 Bq/kg of water
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Japan Earthquake: Nuclear Plants at Fukushima Daiichi
- Thread starter gmax137
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- Earthquake Japan Nuclear Plants
In summary: RCIC consists of a series of pumps, valves, and manifolds that allow coolant to be circulated around the reactor pressure vessel in the event of a loss of the main feedwater supply.In summary, the earthquake and tsunami may have caused a loss of coolant at the Fukushima Daiichi NPP, which could lead to a meltdown. The system for cooling the reactor core is designed to kick in in the event of a loss of feedwater, and fortunately this appears not to have happened yet.
?
5.4 Mbq/cm3 corresponds to 5 400 000 000 Bq/kg of water
- #2,907
- #2,908
TCups
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|Fred said:
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- #2,909
ceebs
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TCups said:
Watching live I only remember one boom with unit 1, and it was noticeable enough for me to think "That's odd" there being three explosions on the live pictures and sound with three
- #2,910
tsutsuji
Gold Member
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Giordano said:
Sorry.
I have edited my post.
So the sea water in front of the quay with 360 000 Bq/kg on April 3rd, then 640 000 Bq/kg on April 4th is worse than the spinach.
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- #2,911
|Fred
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I hope this will help (based on a patent filled by Hitachi (who manufactured with GE some of Fukushima plant)
this is the looking from the sea / east => weast
81 equiment pool
33 SFP
33a fueal rack
http://i.min.us/imZjAC.jpg
this is a south/north or north /south view
http://i.min.us/imUTuC.jpg
and this is .. well
http://i.min.us/imZlIK.jpg
full legend here http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6744841.html
this is the looking from the sea / east => weast
81 equiment pool
33 SFP
33a fueal rack
http://i.min.us/imZjAC.jpg
this is a south/north or north /south view
http://i.min.us/imUTuC.jpg
and this is .. well
http://i.min.us/imZlIK.jpg
full legend here http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6744841.html
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- #2,912
artax
- 160
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Excellent diagrams.
Can't find with sound but from this vid the vertical pressure wave does follow the first blast.
Zoomed in at 35 seconds.
Can't find with sound but from this vid the vertical pressure wave does follow the first blast.
Zoomed in at 35 seconds.
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- #2,913
tsutsuji
Gold Member
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The newest sea water data collected about 25 nautical miles away from the plant are available at http://www.mext.go.jp/component/a_menu/other/detail/__icsFiles/afieldfile/2011/04/04/1304149_0404.pdf
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- #2,914
Giordano
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And in English:tsutsuji said:
http://www.mext.go.jp/component/english/__icsFiles/afieldfile/2011/04/04/1304193_0404.pdf
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- #2,915
M. Bachmeier
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Cire said:
Thank you for the explanation.
- #2,916
- #2,917
curious11
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MadderDoc said:
Two additional things to note from those images. The location of the steam appears heavily discoloured black (on the beam). This is visible on the later clip where no steam is venting.
Secondly, on the side opposite the location of the red arrows, there is seemingly a void where the main floor slab has been blown out, or collapsed in. At least, that's how I read it given my assumption there were no openings in the floor on either side of the SFP delivery channel.
/edit : From the angle the image is taken, the black area should be the outside wall of the containment vessel in shade. Surprised it's SO black considering it's proximity to the opening giving us the view through along with enough daylight to provide some illumination.
- #2,918
AntonL
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Cire said:
M. Bachmeier said:
"The fact that the water feed nozzle is showing a higher temperature (253 °C in unit 1) is a good indication of a failure." is the wrong conclusion - Unit 1 temperature is correct and unit 3 temperature is incorrect and under review. Below the before and after event of unit 3 thermocouple failing. As we can see from below data Tepco had a double emergency
Unit 1 and 3 exceeding design temp of 300 degrees on 23rd. Also, Unit 3 flow rate measurement had malfunctioned such no indication of how much water was being pumped.
23 March : http://www.meti.go.jp/press/20110323012/20110323012-4.pdf
Black smoke from reactor 3 reported
24 March : http://www.meti.go.jp/press/20110324003/20110324003-3.pdf
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- #2,919
Joe Neubarth
- 238
- 1
That question should be on another thread. San Onofre only has a 29 to 30 foot sea wall and is, in my opinion at risk. The sea wall needs to be built higher.FishmanGeertz said:
- #2,920
TCups
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PROPOSED MECHANISM FOR 3-PHASE EXPLOSION OF BUILDING 3
|Fred:
The short answer is that a hydrogen explosion on the top floor does not explain what we see and cannot launch the FHM upward. That is the key.
The only thing that launches the FHM upward is steam, because if all the water is gone, then the pool is just full of hydrogen like the rest of the upper floor and there is no differential pressure under the FHM when it blows.
How do we get steam under the FHM? Only way is superheated gas blasting out the transfer chute.
How does that happen? The containment is full of nitrogen and hydrogen venting occurs to the outside of the containment.
Remember the lateral acceleration forces from the 9.0 quake that exceeded the design parameters of Unit 3? I was wrong about the weak spot being the torus-to-primary containment link.
Here is a radiologist's interpretation of Fig. 3, which is the critical information needed here.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Screenshot2011-04-05at100427AM.png
That big old steel reactor vessel sets on a pedestal like a long, skinny boiled egg. It is made of heavy steel, and it is full of water and one of the densest things I know of -- uranium.
The structures in red are pneumatic shock absorbers of some sort. They are intended to stabilize said "egg" in an earthquake if anything gets tippy.
The torus is in the ground and all that massive concrete structure, not to mention the steel liner inside the primary containment are MASSIVE and firmly anchored to the ground.
If the lateral acceleration forces exceed the design parameters, the pressure vessel risks becoming the upside down clanger in a giant bell shaking at about a 9 on the Richter scale.
The key vulnerable structure if that happens is the high pressure steam outlet pipe. If that cracks or leaks, then you have high pressure steam and shortly thereafter, hydrogen in the primary containment, but not in a huge blast, as the torus suppression pool is meant to (hopefully) handle. Apparently that didn't work out so well at Unit 2.
Now, I can put live steam and hydrogen gas in the primary containment displacing the nitrogen. I can't tell you the exact route to the lower building -- probably via the torus pool then lower floors and up through the lift shaft.
Anyway, pressure differential vs. atmospheric pressure in the vessel doesn't go to zero, but neither does the pressure build to the same level as an RPV without the damaged pipe and leak. Operators might interpret that as "hold off a short while and let's hope to God the generator gets hooked up and we can cool this off before the pressure goes too high, because Unit 1 exploded when we had to do that the last time!" *
Addendum:
*actually the operators had already manually vented the primary containment at 8:42 AM -- but perhaps this also let to more hydrogen in the upper containment, but it means the leak, if there was one either was not so large as to negate the need to vent the RPV, or, perhaps that the rising pressure in the RPV added to the severity of the leak before it was vented.
In the meantime, some hydrogen could have escaped the the drywell cap seal as well as the transfer gate seal, maybe even a pressurized stream venting to the upper building.
The reactor vessel is now mostly dry, really, really (red?) hot, and making hydrogen and oxygen. **
Addendum: ** the explosion(s) occur at 11:15 AM. Thanks for the timeline chart (below)
BOOM! Gas in the primary containment ignites, blows the drywell cap, and blows out of the transfer chute, and to a lesser extent, out of the gate to the equipment pool. This 1) causes a secondary explosion of the hydrogen above, but more importantly, 2) vaporizes the remaining water in SFP3, turning it into a steam cannon and the FHM goes ballistic. BOOM!
The fire and explosion in the upper building propagates to the lower floors which have their own hydrogen, but the pressure from above means that the primary force of the tertiary explosion in the lower floors goes outwards through any path it can find. BOOM!
Now you have the mechanism for the initial fireball at the southeast corner, a ballistic FHM, damage to the equipment pool, blown out upper building, and blown out lower building including the access tunnel, all without a gross breech of the RPV (ie, melted fuel melting through the steel of the RPV).
Debunk that.
|Fred said:
|Fred:
The short answer is that a hydrogen explosion on the top floor does not explain what we see and cannot launch the FHM upward. That is the key.
The only thing that launches the FHM upward is steam, because if all the water is gone, then the pool is just full of hydrogen like the rest of the upper floor and there is no differential pressure under the FHM when it blows.
How do we get steam under the FHM? Only way is superheated gas blasting out the transfer chute.
How does that happen? The containment is full of nitrogen and hydrogen venting occurs to the outside of the containment.
Remember the lateral acceleration forces from the 9.0 quake that exceeded the design parameters of Unit 3? I was wrong about the weak spot being the torus-to-primary containment link.
Here is a radiologist's interpretation of Fig. 3, which is the critical information needed here.
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/Screenshot2011-04-05at100427AM.png
That big old steel reactor vessel sets on a pedestal like a long, skinny boiled egg. It is made of heavy steel, and it is full of water and one of the densest things I know of -- uranium.
The structures in red are pneumatic shock absorbers of some sort. They are intended to stabilize said "egg" in an earthquake if anything gets tippy.
The torus is in the ground and all that massive concrete structure, not to mention the steel liner inside the primary containment are MASSIVE and firmly anchored to the ground.
If the lateral acceleration forces exceed the design parameters, the pressure vessel risks becoming the upside down clanger in a giant bell shaking at about a 9 on the Richter scale.
The key vulnerable structure if that happens is the high pressure steam outlet pipe. If that cracks or leaks, then you have high pressure steam and shortly thereafter, hydrogen in the primary containment, but not in a huge blast, as the torus suppression pool is meant to (hopefully) handle. Apparently that didn't work out so well at Unit 2.
Now, I can put live steam and hydrogen gas in the primary containment displacing the nitrogen. I can't tell you the exact route to the lower building -- probably via the torus pool then lower floors and up through the lift shaft.
Anyway, pressure differential vs. atmospheric pressure in the vessel doesn't go to zero, but neither does the pressure build to the same level as an RPV without the damaged pipe and leak. Operators might interpret that as "hold off a short while and let's hope to God the generator gets hooked up and we can cool this off before the pressure goes too high, because Unit 1 exploded when we had to do that the last time!" *
Addendum:
*actually the operators had already manually vented the primary containment at 8:42 AM -- but perhaps this also let to more hydrogen in the upper containment, but it means the leak, if there was one either was not so large as to negate the need to vent the RPV, or, perhaps that the rising pressure in the RPV added to the severity of the leak before it was vented.
In the meantime, some hydrogen could have escaped the the drywell cap seal as well as the transfer gate seal, maybe even a pressurized stream venting to the upper building.
The reactor vessel is now mostly dry, really, really (red?) hot, and making hydrogen and oxygen. **
Addendum: ** the explosion(s) occur at 11:15 AM. Thanks for the timeline chart (below)
BOOM! Gas in the primary containment ignites, blows the drywell cap, and blows out of the transfer chute, and to a lesser extent, out of the gate to the equipment pool. This 1) causes a secondary explosion of the hydrogen above, but more importantly, 2) vaporizes the remaining water in SFP3, turning it into a steam cannon and the FHM goes ballistic. BOOM!
The fire and explosion in the upper building propagates to the lower floors which have their own hydrogen, but the pressure from above means that the primary force of the tertiary explosion in the lower floors goes outwards through any path it can find. BOOM!
Now you have the mechanism for the initial fireball at the southeast corner, a ballistic FHM, damage to the equipment pool, blown out upper building, and blown out lower building including the access tunnel, all without a gross breech of the RPV (ie, melted fuel melting through the steel of the RPV).
Debunk that.
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- #2,921
artax
- 160
- 0
Very interesting I'll have to analyse that, have you worked out what the big 'jet' of dust is that heads north and obscures from view the northern most exhaust chimney?
good chart on wiki:-
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2f/Fukushima7.png
good chart on wiki:-
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2f/Fukushima7.png
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- #2,922
|Fred
- 312
- 0
@tcup
read and agreed up to "Now, I can put live steam and hydrogen gas in the primary containment displacing the nitrogen" Will continue later ..
Ps: your quoted me in a private message .. now everyone know your pet name...
read and agreed up to "Now, I can put live steam and hydrogen gas in the primary containment displacing the nitrogen" Will continue later ..
Ps: your quoted me in a private message .. now everyone know your pet name...
- #2,923
Astronuc
Staff Emeritus
Science Advisor
2023 Award
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That appears to be a "How to decommission a BWR".|Fred said:
I'm not sure how it will work with the current units.
They have a massive decontamination job on their hands, even if they entomb the units, there's a lot of water that would need to be displaced and therefore cleaned up.
- #2,924
TCups
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|Fred said:
|Fred et. al: the "Panzer-armidillo" is the "Tarkus", taken from the vintage 1971 (the year I graduated high school) ELP album of the same name, and still one of the finest rock albums ever made.
"TCups"
http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn270/tcups/TCUPS2.jpg
http://www.rockalbumreviews.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/tarkus.jpg
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- #2,925
georgiworld
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The silence has been broken.
"The monitor told NHK that no one can enter the plant's No. 1 through 3 reactor buildings because radiation levels are so high that monitoring devices have been rendered useless. He said even levels outside the buildings exceed 100 millisieverts in some places".
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/05_38.html
"The monitor told NHK that no one can enter the plant's No. 1 through 3 reactor buildings because radiation levels are so high that monitoring devices have been rendered useless. He said even levels outside the buildings exceed 100 millisieverts in some places".
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/05_38.html
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- #2,926
shogun338
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You explain to everyone how the sound traveled so far that fast . Camera was miles away . Sound does not travel that fast .ceebs said:
- #2,927
ndray
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Fred said:
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- #2,928
|Fred
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=>The only thing that launches the FHM upward is steam
ok
=>The steam comes from a leak in the drywell
ok
shouldn't we have witness some kind of quick pressure release in the drywell just after the blast?
# date ! time ! hour ! water ! Pcore ! Pdryw ! Psupc ! X ! SRC !
2011-03-14 | 9:00 | 81.0 | -1500 | 409 | 490 | 475 | 0 | --- |
2011-03-14 | 11:01 | 83.0 | 99999 | 99999 | 99999 | 99999 | 1 | --- | < boom
2011-03-14 | 11:15 | 83.2 | -1600 | 316 | 380 | 390 | 0 | --- |
2011-03-14 | 11:25 | 83.4 | -1800 | 292 | 360 | 380 | 0 | --- |
Delta 110MpA
ok
=>The steam comes from a leak in the drywell
ok
shouldn't we have witness some kind of quick pressure release in the drywell just after the blast?
# date ! time ! hour ! water ! Pcore ! Pdryw ! Psupc ! X ! SRC !
2011-03-14 | 9:00 | 81.0 | -1500 | 409 | 490 | 475 | 0 | --- |
2011-03-14 | 11:01 | 83.0 | 99999 | 99999 | 99999 | 99999 | 1 | --- | < boom
2011-03-14 | 11:15 | 83.2 | -1600 | 316 | 380 | 390 | 0 | --- |
2011-03-14 | 11:25 | 83.4 | -1800 | 292 | 360 | 380 | 0 | --- |
Delta 110MpA
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- #2,929
TCups
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|Fred said:
The vertical component of the blast seen on the explosion video of Unit 3 IS the steam. The blast out of the chute would not give a significant upward vector. However, if the residual water in the bottom of the SFP were "pre-heated" so, to speak, near or at boiling point, then I could imagine the sudden addition of the thermal energy blowing out the chute and directly over the residual water in the pool gives the "kick" needed to start the steam engine. I don't know if that makes perfect sense, but it is all I can conceive to put enough kinetic energy under the FHM.
As I think about it, remember also the apparent position of the FHM seen at Unit 4 (at the back (south) edge of the SFP). The sidewise blast therefor might initially tend to be concentrated under the FHM and against the south wall of the SFP.
The quick release of energy would be an explosive expansion of the phase change of water to steam. Almost like a boiler exploding, maybe?
And is it the consensus that the FHD actually did go ballistic? I am not sure that has been independently confirmed, so as yet, that is just the best interpretation of the visual evidence, but not a proven fact, right?
As for the pressure inside the drywell and inside the RPV, I have not examined that data. I will have to defer to you or others on that point, Fred. I am not sure I follow the tabular data above. What is the 99999 figure? Is that absolute or relative pressure?
The explosion outside the RPV might not affect the pressure inside the RPV. The pressure in the drywell does drop after the expolsion (units?). What is Psupc? What is a normal drywell pressure? When was the drywell flooded?
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- #2,930
ceebs
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shogun338 said:
My only explanation is that the camera is not as far away as was reported, the film is that which was transmitted on the night, I had Sky on the TV and NHK on the laptop, and was watching to see if there was a difference in coverage between local and foreign media. The showing of that chunk of film with sound was far too soon after the explosion for anyone to have inserted fake explosion sounds onto it.
- #2,931
|Fred
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I interpret the 99999 as nodata a way of inserting an event in the graph
- #2,932
I_P
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ceebs said:
Perhaps the blasts occurred prior to the visual emergence of the fireballs and ejection of debris.
- #2,933
Jorge Stolfi
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ChopperFlyover said:
It doesn't seem rebar. Those rods seem fairly rigid and are all collected together, parallel, in a place where rebar is unlikely to have collected in large amounts. Moreover the rebar in the outer skin is arranged like a grid.
The neutron measuring tubes, proposed by another poster, seem a much better explanation. Are those neutron tubes gathered into square assemblies too, like the fuel rods?
- #2,934
M. Bachmeier
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- 0
TCups said:
Were starting with superheated water (like a glass of pure water heated in a microwave). If a (relatively) small leak (re: failure at seal of cap) blew out sideways through the transfer gate, there would be a sudden rapid expansion of volume in the remaining liquid. The pressure would increase so rapidly that any other weak point, including an overstressed torus could give way.
99% steam?
- #2,935
Jorge Stolfi
- 279
- 0
|Fred said:
Right. Sometimes the 99999 is a TEPCO fax that says "no data" for that variable, sometimes it is some other source (like an explosion report) that does not mention the variable.
The "Main.html" page in that directory has more details on the file format.
- #2,936
M. Bachmeier
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- 0
M. Bachmeier said:
Notice the apparent color of the plume in this boiler explosion. :http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&sourc...ElT6Rt4Wg&sig2=Mkl-1gUSN-BzZPjk4Gd9fQ&cad=rja
- #2,937
Joe Neubarth
- 238
- 1
M. Bachmeier said:
Note, that was a Carbon Fuel Burning Boiler. More than likely tubes with hot water on the inside and carbon dust on the outside where the flames of combustion are. When the tube bursts it kicks up a lot of carbon soot (and probably put the fire out).
- #2,938
AntonL
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TCups said:
Ballistic fuel handling machines is one of the most creative, out of the box and enetretaining thoughts on this forum.
However, it may just have been parked at the other end of the building, examine at below pics and from the rails on floor one can note that the machine can traverse the building north south or at least such that it can serve all the reactor in the center.
Furthermore, I presume that you will not want to park the FHM over the SFP , that way you minimize the FHM exposure to radiation from the open pool top, so that it does not slowly get radioactive.
[URL]http://posterous.com/getfile/files.posterous.com/billwarner/gbUyXtvgp1FtEJh42PIxIQmyui6J4AkDQt4VonEvEsdqT4673jaZvS2el9eL/rflg-fl2.jpg[/URL]
[URL]http://posterous.com/getfile/files.posterous.com/billwarner/CCk6zJXe49Enj3Fop4ELpKsth2FfRdpaNRMXPGCueXDaGxArPngCOWgWAsA3/rflg-fl1.jpg[/URL]
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- #2,939
TCups
- 486
- 0
AntonL said:
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- #2,940
M. Bachmeier
- 177
- 0
Joe Neubarth said:
Sure, I agree. But a super rapid steam (expansion) explosion would be carrying a lot of debris like concrete...
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