Can Rhodoferax Ferrireducens Bacteria Convert Sugar to Electricity?

[PRodQuanta]

As many may know, the bacteria Rhodoferax ferrireducens has the ability to take various types of sugar and "convert" it into electricity. Many of you also know that gas prices have sky rocketed. Where am I getting here?

I plan on doing a experiment using R. ferrireducens and ethanol from biomass. My question to you is: Does anybody have any good ideas or knowledge they would like to pass onto me (and the general public here @ PF)?

Paden Roder

 

[wasteofo2]

Do you really think that these bacteria can make electricity fast enough and in great enough quantity to power a car? And do you have some sort of system designed to harvest the electricity from these bacteria? You'd likely have better luck filling your gas tank with used frying oil from local fast food restaurants to save yourself money.

 

[Jikx]

If you think about it, you could have the bacteria working for 12 hours while you sleep to charge the batteries! Most people don't use their cars for more than 2 hours a day, so it would be feasible in this regard.

If a square meter of this bacteria energy source produces more electricity than say solar with less resources, then its all good don't you think?

 

[Monique]

Interesting idea, but you should know that these bacteria should be metabolically active in order to produce electrons. You would require an ingenious system of keeping the bacteria at the appropriate temperature, with the right nutritions and at the right concentration. Ofcourse this all can be worked out with a little engineering.

I think that wasteofo2 brings up an interesting question. How much energy do you think you'd require to run a car at 30 miles/hour? You might find out on the net what this value is. I'd then try to translate it to the bacteria, measure how much current they can produce and see if that is scalable :)

I plan on doing a experiment using R. ferrireducens and ethanol from biomass.

I don't understand this, what are you planning to do?

 

[iansmith]

I plan on doing a experiment using R. ferrireducens and ethanol from biomass.

What are you going to use as a biomass and what is going to ferment it? You will need to sterilize your ethanol and other nutriment that you will use so the potential contaminant will not disrupted your cultute

also you will need a chemostat to continuously grow your bacteria.
This is the basic concept of chemostats culture
http://www.bact.wisc.edu/Bact303/GrowthbacterialPopulations
http://www.bio.vu.nl/thb/deb/deblab/chain/model.html
http://www.qub.ac.uk/fungi/Level1/mcb106/lect5/cont.html
Here a setup
http://www.math.mcmaster.ca/arino/chemostat.jpg

How are you going to "harvest" the energy? Where are you going to store the energy?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Funny, this just came up in another thread. If you see this thread

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4127

within you will find a number of good links to work being done with biomass to produce hydrogen. I would think that you may find information related to your efforts as well. There is information throughout the thread with several links concentrated around page 4.

We need biologists doing this work. Great job!

 

[Monique]

These bacteria don't produce hydrogen, Ivan, they actually produce electrons and have already been used as batteries

PRodQuanta, how did your experiment work at that time when you were trying to measure the potential created by the bacteria? Did it work, or did you give it up at the time?

 

[Monique]

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=00054931-E680-1F58-905980A84189EEDF"

http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?article_id=218392129"

 

[Ivan Seeking]

These bacteria don't produce hydrogen, Ivan, they actually produce electrons and have already been used as batteries

I realize this...I thought that there may still be related information since many links address energy production in general.

Edit: Though I didn't know that this has already been done.

 

[Monique]

"Perhaps one day electronics will be sold with the caveat "bacteria not included.""
lol :tongue:

 

[PRodQuanta]

Sorry I haven't had time to reply, I just got back from school. Let me catch up here.

wasteofo2 said: Do you really think that these bacteria can make electricity fast enough and in great enough quantity to power a car? And do you have some sort of system designed to harvest the electricity from these bacteria? You'd likely have better luck filling your gas tank with used frying oil from local fast food restaurants to save yourself money.

No, I don't beieve they can. They can power a battery though. Or be stored in a capacitor. Yes, the founder, Dr. Lovley and his assistant, Dr. Chanduri, have helped me out with the microbial fuel cell.

Jikx said: If you think about it, you could have the bacteria working for 12 hours while you sleep to charge the batteries!

That's the plan!

I said: I plan on doing a experiment using R. ferrireducens and ethanol from biomass.

Monique said: What does this mean

I plan on using biomass and breaking it down into sugars, then turn some of that sugar into ethanol, and giving some of it to the bacteria. It depends on how much energy output each is possible of giving.

iansmith said: What are you going to use as a biomass and what is going to ferment it?

I plan on using soybean vines, and doughnuts that are thrown away every day at Hy-Vee. I plan on using the same methods of fermenting that our local ethanol plant uses.

iansmith said: How are you going to "harvest" the energy? Where are you going to store the energy?

I plan on using a basic microbial fuel cell apparatus for the harvesting of energy. Although, the bacteria is primarily anearobic, although it is also facultative, so I will have to make sure it's got it's carbon dioxide and nitrogen environment to live in. I will probably store the energy in a capacitor. Or maybe just a plain battery charger.

Ivan Seeking said: ...within you will find a number of good links to work being done with biomass to produce hydrogen. I would think that you may find information related to your efforts as well. There is information throughout the thread with several links concentrated around page 4.

Thanks for the info.

Ivan Seeking said: We need biologists doing this work. Great job!

Biologist? lol, more like high schooler wannabe Newton, Einstein, Reimann, De Broglie, Schrodinger, Planck, Witten, Bohr... or just physicist. It has to deal with energy, which is why I am interested. But the remark is still greatly appreciated.

Monique said: PRodQuanta, how did your experiment work at that time when you were trying to measure the potential created by the bacteria? Did it work, or did you give it up at the time?

I ended up not being able to obtain the bacteria in time. So instead of only having 3 weeks to do an experiment, I have 52. Also, thanks for the help. For all that don't know, Monique was a huge help in teaching me about this bacteria.


Thanks a lot guys. Your input is very helpful. Keep bringing it on!

Paden Roder

 

[iansmith]

I plan on using soybean vines, and doughnuts that are thrown away every day at Hy-Vee. I plan on using the same methods of fermenting that our local ethanol plant uses.

It was what expect: recycle organic waste.

Although, the bacteria is primarily anearobic, although it is also facultative, so I will have to make sure it's got it's carbon dioxide and nitrogen environment to live in.

The gaz level migth have an effect on the electricity production. For example, oxygen availability has a great effect on alcohol production from yeast. You migth have to do a range of atmosphere condition to optimize your system.

 

[PRodQuanta]

The gaz level migth have an effect on the electricity production. For example, oxygen availability has a great effect on alcohol production from yeast. You migth have to do a range of atmosphere condition to optimize your system.

Yeah. I plan on doing lots of test for optimization.

Not to get off track, but how do I get my avatar and quote back. Ever since I got back on the new forum, it deleted both.

 

[Monique]

Well Paden, there are plans to ask for a small fee for the signature and some other thingies https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=16544 this is a new version of the forum so I guess not all avatars are available in the new software (you could try to change it though in you user cp).

 

[Phobos]

Just skimmed the topic.
A reaction vessel of anaerobes will be hard to maintain (they're sensitive to changes in environment and the system can get out of whack easily). It may be easier to have larger (industrial-scale rather than per-auto) reaction vessels that feeds a power grid that your car can be plugged into. But that would make the technology apply to the overall power grid and not just automotive uses.

Of course, there may be technical solutions that allow for reliable, small reaction vessels in each vehicle.

You'll also need to figure out what to do with waste products (biomass, methane, etc.).

 

[PRodQuanta]

Phobos said: A reaction vessel of anaerobes will be hard to maintain (they're sensitive to changes in environment and the system can get out of whack easily). It may be easier to have larger (industrial-scale rather than per-auto) reaction vessels that feeds a power grid that your car can be plugged into. But that would make the technology apply to the overall power grid and not just automotive uses.

My experiment actually isn't JUST for the purpose of powering a car. Matter-of-factly, it has nothing to do with cars, except for the bacteria having the potential to power a battery, thus powering a car.

Paden Roder

 

[Sariaht]

Are solarcells constructed by many layers of glas reflecting different light frequencies?

 

[PRodQuanta]

Sariaht said: Are solarcells constructed by many layers of glas reflecting different light frequencies?

No. A solar cell is a photovoltaic cell that is made up of usually silicon p-type and n-type layers. It uses the sun's energy to knock out loose electrons found in the cell and creates an electric current. One of the main focuses for photovoltaic cells (solar cells) is, matter-of-fact, to REDUCE the reflection of light. You see, the more light (Electromagnetic Energy) that the cell absorbs (not reflects), the more energy there is available to knock out those loose electrons. Ergo, more electricity.

 

[Sariaht]

I know that, PRodQuanta!

I ment to reflect the light into different absorbers at different layers!
The first reflector would reflect some light frequencies and let through as many as possible of the others. the absorbers would be as perfect as possible for those frequencies it gets beamed with; the frequencies would get speciall treatment

 

[Loren Booda]

By any other name these Rhodoferax ferrireducens might be called Maxwell's demons. Can they provide energy macroscopically? Neurons and muscle cells also produce electricity, but usually with diminishing return. The trick is to get them to work in phase - how is this achieved in animals?

 

[Monique]

These bacteria deposit electrons as a byproduct of their metabolism, why would they have to work in phase? The potential can be used to generate electricity.. are the bacteria going to be fried in the process though..? :S

 

[PRodQuanta]

Sariaht, I still don't think I understand what you are saying. The whole "reflecting" is throwing me off. I know one of the big pushes for photovoltaic cells is to create a cell that will absorb a larger range or EM radiation. Not just white light, but UV , ect. ..

I don't think that is what you are addressing though.

Sorry if I am being difficult here, I'm just a little confused.
Paden Roder

 

[Janitor]

If this process really did prove to be practical, should we worry that the remaining rain forest in South America will be chopped down to make way for farm fields to grow crops that yield the sugar?

As an aside, I read an article in the newspaper today that says a major highway is going to be built to connect Brazil to the Pacific. People are already worrying that agriculture will spring up along the highway, and spread back into the forest as time goes by.

 

[Loren Booda]

How do individual cells "know" to behave in concert to create overall coherent brain waves or coordinated muscle movement? By "in phase" I seek eliminating random interference of cell signals and work toward constructive mass action.

 

[PRodQuanta]

Janitor said: If this process really did prove to be practical, should we worry that the remaining rain forest in South America will be chopped down to make way for farm fields to grow crops that yield the sugar?

I don't think that would be a problem. I know for a fact that there are plent of sources of sugar out there. I.E-Land fills, old thrown out donuts by krispy kreme, soy bean vines, corn stalks... practically everything is composed of some type of sugar.

Loren Booda said: How do individual cells "know" to behave in concert to create overall coherent brain waves or coordinated muscle movement? By "in phase" I seek eliminating random interference of cell signals and work toward constructive mass action.

I don't think these little critters need to worry about working in phase.

Paden Roder

 

[Monique]

How do individual cells "know" to behave in concert to create overall coherent brain waves or coordinated muscle movement? By "in phase" I seek eliminating random interference of cell signals and work toward constructive mass action.

huh? brain wave? muscle movement?

These bacteria (single celled organism) just wants to live, in order to do that it has to metabolize sugar. A byproduct of its chemistry are electrons.. you just have a big container with liquid medium containing the basic constituents needed for these cells to proliferate.. this would basically be the one cell of the (galvanic?) battery with the negative charge, you hook it up to another cell and the flow of electrons create the current..

 

[Phobos]

My experiment actually isn't JUST for the purpose of powering a car. Matter-of-factly, it has nothing to do with cars, except for the bacteria having the potential to power a battery, thus powering a car.

Ah...I assumed that when you mentioned rocketing gas prices. Carry on. (but my comment about the difficulty in maintaining anaerobic systems remains in play)

 

[iansmith]

but my comment about the difficulty in maintaining anaerobic systems remains in play

It does not have to maintain an anaerobic system, the bacteria is a facultatively anaerobic. The only problem carbon dioxide enrichment migth be require to decrease the available oxygen. Anyway if you use a chemostat and do not have any shaking part of the medium will be patly anaerobic. The anaerobic bacteria will grow at the bottom half of the tank.

 

[PRodQuanta]

iansmith said: It does not have to maintain an anaerobic system, the bacteria is a facultatively anaerobic. The only problem carbon dioxide enrichment migth be require to decrease the available oxygen. Anyway if you use a chemostat and do not have any shaking part of the medium will be patly anaerobic. The anaerobic bacteria will grow at the bottom half of the tank.

Yes, it is facultative, and also has the ability to live at room temp (mainly a little below). You must remember that this bacteria was found in nature (I believe 18' underneath a swamp). It has to be able to sustain SOME oxygen. Although, not a whole lot.

Phobos said: Ah...I assumed that when you mentioned rocketing gas prices. Carry on.

That was my bad. After rereading my opener, I found where you could have assumed.

Paden Roder