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PerennialII said:Whether anyone would do anything similar doesn't make it any less disgusting.
Them restricting aid to a "rebellious" part of their country makes wonder whether they are using the Tsunami to solve their internal problems, adding a new dimension to how disgusting this is.
Yes - allowing your own people to die because you have a political bone to pick with those giving the aid and the opportunity to use that aid itself as a tactic in fighting an internal conflict is disgusting.Gonzolo said:I don't see what you find disgusting. Indonesia refusing US military help?
This may require clarification: it mentioned in the article that flight status requires no more than 14 days between training flights. That means taking off, flying around for a very short time, and landing (the landing is the most important part of the qualification and several are required). Since the carrier was less than 13 miles off the coast, it was in Indonesian airspace and the planes weren't even allowed to do this. We're not even talking flying over Indonesia itself, conducting combat training, etc. Just landing qualifications. There is absolutely no reason no to allow this.Locrian said:I can understand why they made at least some of those choices. Are they disgusting for not allowing our military to conduct training excersizes in their airspace when they undoubtedly need our help? Are we disgusting for insisting on performing military training excersizes in someone elses airspace whom we are supposedly helping?
Can you name a time ever in history where the US has used such a natural disaster relief effort as a pretext for war? Its simply not an issue.scarecrow said:Indonesia is right in the decision it made. Who knows what other agenda the U.S. may have...any country would do the same thing (especially the U.S.) in time of war and the fact that Indonesia is the largest islamic country.
Yes! This isn't even just about the US - they are using the humanitarian effort itself in their internal politics. Its nice that they are observing a cease-fire during the aid effort, but to not allow aid to areas where rebels are - thats...well, disgusting!PerennialII said:Them restricting aid to a "rebellious" part of their country makes wonder whether they are using the Tsunami to solve their internal problems, adding a new dimension to how disgusting this is.
WHY? Why is it right to let civilians die because you don't like who is giving the aid or because there happen to be rebels nearby? Not even Hussein did that (much). He allowed humanitarian aid into the country. This is more along the lines of what the warlords did in Somalia, or perhaps, the Kursk incident (though in Russia's defense, that was a military accident).Locrian said:No, but what we are implying is that we would do the same thing because, although it is a hard choice to make, it may be the right thing to do.
See above "military training" is not combat training and I absolutely would allow that in an aid situation or otherwise (and we do it all the time). The only reason not to allow it would be if you consider the training flights a threat, which they have no basis for.If Russ would let those providing aid to the US (in a hypothetical situation) do military training in US airspace, then he's justified in being critical.
russ_watters said:WHY?
russ_watters said:Please, guys, if you didn't read the whole article, please do. There are many, many points in it:
-Not allowing flight qualifications for US Navy pilots offshore.
-Not allowing military to carry weapons - particularly heinous considering security is a problem already.
-Not allowing aid to areas where rebels are.
-Requiring aid workers and journalists to have specific travel plans or face expulsion
-Not allowing on-site bases of operation or temporary camps for military aid workers (you can help us, but you have to leave every night). Now instead of ferrying aid from ships, most of the effort is in ferrying aid workers to and from land on a daily basis.
-Possibly using these restrictions to cover-up corruption and human rights abuses by the Indonesian government/military.
-Trying to use the disaster as a pretext for lifting an embargo on arms sales to Indonesia.
Not even IRAN, our supposed bitter enemy, acted this way following the earthquake there last year (though admittedly, the scope was smaller). We try to help, they slap us in the face: why should we help them now?
tumor said:And where did you read all that my friend ? Oh yeah.. in good old "USA Today" magazine ? Gotch you sucker.
Unfortunately, the TNI (the Indonesian military) http://www.thejakartapost.com/Archives/ArchivesDet2.asp?FileID=20041231.A02 ). There hasn't been fighting in the coastal areas that were actually damaged by the tsunami, but apparently substantial forces continued sweeping villages inland instead of assisting in relief work. To all appearances, the Indonesian government has gone about the relief effort in a weaselly and opportunistic fashion that's just, er, disgusting.russ_watters said:Yes! This isn't even just about the US - they are using the humanitarian effort itself in their internal politics. Its nice that they are observing a cease-fire during the aid effort, but to not allow aid to areas where rebels are - thats...well, disgusting!PerennialII said:Them restricting aid to a "rebellious" part of their country makes wonder whether they are using the Tsunami to solve their internal problems, adding a new dimension to how disgusting this is.
russ_watters said:Please, guys, if you didn't read the whole article, please do. There are many, many points in it:
-Not allowing flight qualifications for US Navy pilots offshore.
...
russ_watters said:Locrian, your justification seemed to be that we would (or might) make the same choices.
Russ said:Locrian, your justification [for not considering this disgusting]
seemed to be that we would (or might) make the same choices. [emphasis added]
Huh? You said it wasn't true then you said virtually the same thing with virtually the same words! If I'm missing something, I truly apologize, but I don't think I am.Locrian said:That isn't true. I suggested we might make the same choice and then gave a reason we might do that. [emphasis added]
Locrian said:I have to admit I'm rather envious of him. I'm not sure how free he'll be able to be with the information (I can't think of any reason he couldn't be, but then I don't know much about the situation), but if I hear any information we haven't all heard before that's worth recounting, I will post it.
What??!? Are you on something? If not, you have no concept whatsoever of what is going on in this situation or in the minds of Americans.tumor said:I know what you old man will say, simply: Indonesian moslems bad and evil, americans the best people in the world.
Ms. Rhodes adds that CARE has seen what she describes as an "overwhelming" display of generosity from ordinary people.
"What we have seen is an unbelievable amount of outpouring of people wanting to do something," she said. "Our headquarters is in Atlanta, and people are literally walking off the street, into the CARE headquarters, handing checks and cash, and saying here's something for the emergency. So, it's just been phenomenal that people have been - whether it's five dollars or a hundred dollars or a thousand dollars, people are responding to this."
russ_watters said:What??!? Are you on something? If not, you have no concept whatsoever of what is going on in this situation or in the minds of Americans.
Your attitude is what I fear most in this world: blind hatred.
You do know how many Americans are personally giving aid to Indonesia, right? Upwards of 100 million. These are people who'se names you aren't doing it for the sake of appearances (there is no way you could ever learn their names). They are doing it becase they care. Your attitude in the face of such caring and generosity is sickening and pathetic.
http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-01-05-voa6.cfm
russ_watters said:What??!? Are you on something? If not, you have no concept whatsoever of what is going on in this situation or in the minds of Americans.
Your attitude is what I fear most in this world: blind hatred.
You do know how many Americans are personally giving aid to Indonesia, right? Upwards of 100 million. These are people aren't doing it for the sake of appearances (there is no way you could ever learn their names). They are doing it becase they care. Your attitude in the face of such caring and generosity is sickening and pathetic.
http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-01-05-voa6.cfm
I said no such thing.JasonRox said:Oh... on a another note. Please don't act like the US is the only country with people with such generosity.
russ_watters said:I said no such thing.
russ_watters said:Huh? You said it wasn't true then you said virtually the same thing with virtually the same words! If I'm missing something, I truly apologize, but I don't think I am.
"Very little is being degraded. We're doing just as many missions as before," Daniels said.
There has been an ongoing conflict in Aceh between the Indonesian government and Acehnese separatists for at least 25 years. The Indonesian military has been fairly brutal toward civilians and the government has kept Aceh mostly closed to foreigners. Having hundreds of aid workers in a position to see what has been going on in Aceh is probably not Jakarta's favorite idea. Journalists have been told by Indonesian military commanders not to report on clashes of the TNI (the Indonesian army) or the Kopassus (special forces) with the GAM (the Acehnese guerillas).Locrian said:So there are some questions I would want answered before I made a moral judgement here:
1) Are these national security issues, or just playing politics? Doesn't a country still have the right to govern their airspace, even if they are in need of help? Is it necessary to trade your national security for aid, or is there a smarter way? What reasons does indonesia have, exactly, for fearing a breach of national security?
It's hard to tell from this report whether this woman just feels divided loyalties, or is mostly afraid to publicly denounce the TNI (or perhaps to denounce either side).Yesterday the mother of one of the men killed by the army denied her son was a militant and said she didn't know why he had been shot. "We don't know what happened. He had gone to find some broken motorbikes on the beach," Mariani Basri told the Guardian, from her home in the nearby village of Lamlhom. Asked whether she blamed the Indonesian army, she replied: "There's no point in protesting. It was the destiny of God."
Her son, Andriansyah, was 19 and was still at high school, she said. "We have to like the Indonesian army because we are Indonesian. We have to like Gam because we are from Aceh. We are in the middle and we get squashed," she added.
When they first arrived at least, perhaps the most important thing the U.S. carrier group brought with it was the capacity to supply vast amounts of fresh water. This presumably kept many people alive and has significantly reduced some of the risks from disease. I have no idea if/how the U.S. has been materially hampered in delivering this water.Locrian said:2) How many people are going to die or suffer because the US (edit: military) is not there? Will others step up? How much has the US (edit: military) actually reduced aid? I really don't feel the article was very specific about that last question. I don't know the answer to the second, and the answer to the first depends on those.
Always good questions to ask, and maybe Indonesia does have some legitimate security concerns. (I have no comment on any of these points regarding training missions and the positioning of ships.) However, there is also a lot of evidence that Jakarta is acting dodgy and has motives other than assuring that relief workers can accomplish their task unhindered.3) Does the US military have any alterior motives I do not know about? I would think not, and I'm not one for conspiracy theories. But then, our history is riddled with rediculous affairs into other nations politics that were neither logical or moral. In fact, I can think of a few that were brazenly immoral, illegal and illogical. So what don't I know about this? Could Indonesia know something I don't? I hate the things those last two questions imply, but given our history, I'd feel foolish if I didn't ask them.
JasonRox said:You seem to be giving the impression the US is the greatest of all countries to help. Indonesia is willing to accept other countries, but not the US.
What's the big deal? They are going to get the help they need regardless of what the US does. Personnally, I don't view the US as the best possible help.
Why not send your troops elsewhere? Other countries are more than willing to take more troops.
Fair enough.Locrian said:So I posted a wishy-washy response to a wishy-washy set of information. I apoligize for the confusion and will respond more carefully next time.
Neither of those are American institutions.JasonRox said:Americans have a bad image... its obvious why.
World Bank ****ed everyone over.
WTO ****ed everyone over. [emphasis added]
Bush is one American, albeit the most powerful: but you still can't extend his views to all Americans.Bush trying to **** everyone over.
russ_watters said:Also: Neither of those are American institutions. Bush is one American, albeit the most powerful: but you still can't extend his views to all Americans.
JasonRox said:If you didn't vote, that implies you share all views.