They finally caught Roman Polanski

[gravenewworld]

SHould he go to jail or was his case so mishandled he deserves to be off the hook?

 

[russ_watters]

Given the severity of the crime (drug induced rape of a 13 year old girl), I was pretty surprised with the leniency of his plea bargain and perhaps that's why he was worried it would fall apart and skipped the country. Regardless, he's using his celebrity to assist in being a successful fugitive. If he wants to argue the case should be dropped or he should just get "time served" as the deal apparently went, fine: but you can't be allowed to make that argument while continuing to break the law. He needs to be made to deal with the reality everyone else has to deal with.

...The ironic thing is that he may end up spending more time in jail fighitng extradition than he would have if he had come back to the US to accept his plea.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

What was mishandled about his case? Last I knew he plead guilty and has not said otherwise since.

 

[Pengwuino]

I don't understand any of this. He's charged with raping a minor, pleads guilty to a plea bargin (which in my mind means he admits he raped a girl)... and he isn't suppose to spend time in jail? Maybe I'm not old enough to understand what in the world happened.

 

[Count Iblis]

He admitted to statutory rape, which is not considered to be rape in Europe:

http://worldhaveyoursay.wordpress.com/2009/09/28/on-the-use-of-the-word-rape/

 

[russ_watters]

He admitted to statutory rape, which is not considered to be rape in Europe:

http://worldhaveyoursay.wordpress.com/2009/09/28/on-the-use-of-the-word-rape/

I don't see your point. That article only quibbles about the wording distinction between "rape" and "statutory rape". Ok, so he's an alleged rapist and convicted statutory rapist. So what?
[edit]
I see you posted about it in another thread:

I stand corrected on Honduras, but Polanski was awaiting sentencing for consensual sex with a 13 year old, not for rape.

No, statutory rape is by definition not consentual. That's the whole point of criminalizing it!

This is called "statutory rape" in the US. Now, in France the age of consent was 12 at the time, so it isn't (or wasn't) even a crime in France.

We could just as well start to arrest people who violated Iranian sharia law and extradite them to Iran. It is one thing to have extremist laws, it is another thing to expect decent countries to extradite people who violated such laws.

I don't really know how extradition laws work, but the US has extradition treaties with both Switzerland and France. The US does not have an extradition treaty with Iran.

This is what the outrage in Europe is about.

Although the age of consent has gone up in European countries since the 1970s, you do not get long prison sentences for merely having sex with a minor.

Why is "Europe" not outraged that Roman Polannski wasn't tried for rape? That's what our outrage is about in this thread.

Also, are you imply that France now has statutory rape laws that would apply in a case like this. So France had "outrage" enough to change their law but not "outrage" enough to condemn Polanski for violating it? Seems an odd thing for "Europe" to be "outraged" about.

Of course! Children older than about ten can have sexual feelings. We have laws banning sex with children to protect children. But this is a very difficult issue. I think in the US you had a case where a teacher had consensual sex with a 12 year of boy. The teacher got pregnant and was sentenced to ten years in jail. After the teacher left jail they got married.

The whole idea that you can make a law that defines what is consensual or not is, i.m.o. ridiculous.

Your personal opinion about how "consentual" should be defined isn't really relevant to how it is defined and according to the legal definition (then in the US, now in France), this sex was not consentual.

Beyond that, there is the issue of the crimes that were dropped: they were dropped in exchange for a plea bargain and so we will never know if they would have held up in court, but nevertheless, the charges and evidence exist for us to examine. Do you, as an individual who with powers of logical reasoning, actually believe that no coercion of any kind was used by Polanski, whether alcohol, drugs or social?

They can have the ability to consent, it is simply that in different lawmakers have different laws in order to protect children. The law assumes that children below a certain age cannot consent, regardless of whether that is true or not from a scientific point of view.

The problem here is that rare cases in which the child obviously did consent cannot be treated different from a case in which a child was raped.

Fortunately, this example is not one of those ambiguous examples where consent is a reasonable possibility (such as a 19 year old boy with a 17 year old girl in a long term relationship). In this case, the age difference, status of the two parties and the situation make the sex clearly coercive - even if we didn't already know she said "no".

 

[lisab]

He admitted to statutory rape, which is not considered to be rape in Europe:

http://worldhaveyoursay.wordpress.com/2009/09/28/on-the-use-of-the-word-rape/

It should be common knowledge that when you are in Country X, you must follow Country X's laws, whether you agree with them or not...even if you're famous .

Besides, he gave her alcohol and a qualuude, and she asked repeatedly for him to stop as he was raping her...she didn't consent, regardless of her age. So the "age of consent is 12 where I come from" argument is BS.

 

[Count Iblis]

Russ, Lisab, I do agree with the main points you are making. You have someone who drugged and raped a girl and it is wrong that this goes unpunished. I fully agree.

I think the main complicating factor here is caused by the way the US law works, which is quite different from how it works in Europe. Plea bargains, confessing to something in exchange for being sentenced for a lesser charge etc. are things that are quite alien to us.

 

[WhoWee]

Russ, Lisab, I do agree with the main points you are making. You have someone who drugged and raped a girl and it is wrong that this goes unpunished. I fully agree.

I think the main complicating factor here is caused by the way the US law works, which is quite different from how it works in Europe. Plea bargains, confessing to something in exchange for being sentenced for a lesser charge etc. are things that are quite alien to us.

Pleading guilty did complicate matters. He clearly thought he was above the law when he fled the country.

 

[russ_watters]

I think the main complicating factor here is caused by the way the US law works, which is quite different from how it works in Europe. Plea bargains, confessing to something in exchange for being sentenced for a lesser charge etc. are things that are quite alien to us.

So what? How does any of that matter?

 

[russ_watters]

For reference, text of the current US extradition treaty with France, ratified in 1997: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=105_cong_documents&docid=f:td013.105.pdf

I find it unclear on the issue of whether France should have extradited him based on the treaty, but I've seen in some links that France typically does not extradite its own citizens, treaty or not.

 

[mgb_phys]

Probably not relevant to this case but the US might not have an extradition treaty with the EU for much longer.
The current treaty with the UK from 2003 is being challenged in the european court by some UK hacker that broke into the pentagon looking for evidence of UFO coverups.
Apparently it requires the UK to hand over terrorists suspects without the US having to offer any evidence but bans the extradition of US citizen terrorists to the UK.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I'd like to see that change. I certainly think the UK should have the right to extradite US terrorists. Working out how to share evidence in a timely and secure manner is, of course, difficult; I hope that a good solution to that problem can be worked out as well. It would be useful, presumably, on both sides.

 

[mgb_phys]

I certainly think the UK should have the right to extradite US terrorists.

It's generally very difficult to extradite Americans for anything.
The terrorism part was introduced in the 2003 act to stop attempts by various peace campaigners to prosecute the USA for the Gulf war but it does mean a few Irish gentlemen that the Brits would like to talk to are currently safe in the USA.

 

[WhoWee]

Probably not relevant to this case but the US might not have an extradition treaty with the EU for much longer.
The current treaty with the UK from 2003 is being challenged in the european court by some UK hacker that broke into the pentagon looking for evidence of UFO coverups.
Apparently it requires the UK to hand over terrorists suspects without the US having to offer any evidence but bans the extradition of US citizen terrorists to the UK.

Do you recall the name of the hacker or have a link - I'd like to read the story.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Do you recall the name of the hacker or have a link - I'd like to read the story.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6521255.stm
Its been a while since it originally happened and the story wasn't really all that big since he apparently did not get much information. It was only interesting in that he was able to hack pentagon computers.

Russ, Lisab, I do agree with the main points you are making. You have someone who drugged and raped a girl and it is wrong that this goes unpunished. I fully agree.

I think the main complicating factor here is caused by the way the US law works, which is quite different from how it works in Europe. Plea bargains, confessing to something in exchange for being sentenced for a lesser charge etc. are things that are quite alien to us.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plea_bargain
Plea Bargains do take place in other countries including European countries. Apparently the reason it seems odd or alien to some Europeans is that they have a different form of law that does not incorporate a 'plea'. In a civil law district the prosecutor must put on a case in all cases, the defendant can not plead guilty. Here in the US, regardless of any bargaining, a defendant may plead guilty and be sentenced right away without trial if they so choose. In many cases a guilty plea will result in lesser penalties since the defendant is obviously willing to admit fault. Plea Bargains allow the defendant to know for certain that they will be given such consideration for having admitted their guilt.

 

[Proton Soup]

Pleading guilty did complicate matters. He clearly thought he was above the law when he fled the country.

yeah, i think that's the biggest problem he has now, tbh. the FBI has a little thing about fugitives, they will chase a guy from now until eternity.

i've read that the victim wants the case closed, but it's really not about her anymore.

 

[Count Iblis]

So what? How does any of that matter?

Because the Swiss judges will have to look into this. Although extradition from Switzerland to the US seems to be a legal formality, in this case there may be some arguments that may convince the judges not to agree to extradition.

1) Polanski's age. In most European countries, age is a relevant factor for sentencing (or getting released on health grounds). In the US you typically don't get a lighter sentence based on age or health. So, if Polanski were likely to get a ten year jail sentence in the US, then given his age, that would be too harsh according to our standards.

2) Polanski's confession. If this is seen to be unreliable evidence here, then a new prosecution in the US based on that would be seen to be problematic.

 

[Borek]

If you have not noticed, that's what my entry in the current photo contest is:

Anybody knows if pictures Polański took at this time are available somewhere on the web?

 

[Count Iblis]

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=8721650

PARIS (Reuters) - France's Culture Minister Frederic Mitterrand questioned on Thursday whether film director Roman Polanski would get a fair hearing from the US justice system...

 

[mgb_phys]

PARIS (Reuters) - France's Culture Minister Frederic Mitterrand questioned on Thursday whether film director Roman Polanski would get a fair hearing from the US justice system...

If he already pled guilty is there a trial?

 

[Galteeth]

If he already pled guilty is there a trial?

Actually I think there will be another trial, since evading law enforcement is a separate crime.

 

[Proton Soup]

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=8721650

Mitterand says lots of things. Mitterand is a jack***.

http://www.jewishjournal.com/hollywoodjew/item/does_jail_remind_roman_polanski_of_the_holocaust_20090929/

 

[Count Iblis]

The harsher the rhetoric from the US, the less likely it becomes that Polanski will be extradited.

 

[drankin]

The harsher the rhetoric from the US, the less likely it becomes that Polanski will be extradited.

The French can have him.

 

[pbadss]

Actually I think there will be another trial, since evading law enforcement is a separate crime.

They don't necessarily need to prosecute him for skipping out of the country. They have enough to sentence him for statutory rape, no?

 

[mheslep]

Russ, Lisab, I do agree with the main points you are making. You have someone who drugged and raped a girl and it is wrong that this goes unpunished. I fully agree.

I think the main complicating factor here is caused by the way the US law works, which is quite different from how it works in Europe. Plea bargains, confessing to something in exchange for being sentenced for a lesser charge etc. are things that are quite alien to us.

So what? How does any of that matter?

Not only does it not matter, it is not correct to say that plea bargains are alien to Europe.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2369772&postcount=206

 

[Count Iblis]

Not only does it not matter, it is not correct to say that plea bargains are alien to Europe.
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2369772&postcount=206

They are alien to most of Europe, certainly in the extreme way there are used in the US.

 

[lisab]

They are alien to most of Europe, certainly in the extreme way there are used in the US.

You've said that several times, in contrast to what others have said. Do you have any documentation for this?

 

[Galteeth]

They don't necessarily need to prosecute him for skipping out of the country. They have enough to sentence him for statutory rape, no?

Well, if my understanding from the news reports is correct, he skipped town before the judge gave him his additional sentence.

 

[mheslep]

Hollywood has gone from simply out there to insane:
Miramax studio head Weinstein:

In an interview, Weinstein said that people generally misunderstand what happened to Polanski at sentencing. He's not convinced public opinion is running against the filmmaker and dismisses the categorization of Hollywood as amoral. "Hollywood has the best moral compass, because it has compassion," Weinstein said. "We were the people who did the fundraising telethon for the victims of 9/11. We were there for the victims of Katrina and any world catastrophe."

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-polanski1-2009oct01,0,1755914.story

 

[russ_watters]

Because the Swiss judges will have to look into this. Although extradition from Switzerland to the US seems to be a legal formality, in this case there may be some arguments that may convince the judges not to agree to extradition.

...neither of those two thing have anything to do with your previous quote, which seems to me to be an irrelevant criticism of the US legal system. You seem to be implying that those things play a part in extradition hearings, but you haven't presented any information to imply that that is true - and I don't think it is! You've added more:

1) Polanski's age. In most European countries, age is a relevant factor for sentencing (or getting released on health grounds). In the US you typically don't get a lighter sentence based on age or health. So, if Polanski were likely to get a ten year jail sentence in the US, then given his age, that would be too harsh according to our standards.

Polanski skipped-out on his sentencing. He hasn't been sentenced yet, so how can that be a relevant concern? Are you asserting that in deciding on extradition, the Swiss do/should consider the outcome of prosecution and sentencing? How can they do that without having a trial themselves?

2) Polanski's confession. If this is seen to be unreliable evidence here, then a new prosecution in the US based on that would be seen to be problematic.

Are you asserting that the Swiss would/should base extradition on the predicted direction and outcome of a new trial that there isn't any reason to expect would happen anyway? How does that not sound silly in your head when you think it?

The harsher the rhetoric from the US, the less likely it becomes that Polanski will be extradited.

Yet another throw-away one-liner. This is getting tiresome. You need to explain yourself here: What rhetoric and why would rhetoric outside a courtroom matter inside a courtroom?

Anyway, from what I've seen, very little has been said - rhetorical or otherwise - by US officials. Contrast that with France, where quite a bit of rhetoric has been flowing. The first reaction by the French foreign minister was that the arrest was "a bit sinister". "Sinister"? Really? Arresting a convicted rapist and international fugitive is sinister? The culture minister said he was "thrown to the lions"...well, the culture minister has a primary area of responsibility and it isn't the law, it is entertainment, so his bias should be obvious. http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-09-28-polanski_N.htm?obref=obnetwork
Here's a commentary that I think accurately captures the basis of the French rhetoric on this:

At first sight, the reaction of France’s leaders may seem incredible.

After all, anyone in France convicted of a similar offence to the one Polanski committed — which, none of us should forget, is having unlawful sex with a 13-year-old girl — would face very severe punishment.
But for Polanski it is different — and, disturbingly, there are many reasons, both social and historical, to explain the privileged position he has enjoyed since he first arrived as a fugitive from U.S. justice.
The truth is that the French political establishment has never got used to the idea that its own members, les notables, are subject to the same laws as everyone else.
They do not always see the need to pay the same taxes as other mortals; many of them regard the public purse as their own; they believe the details of their private lives are sacrosanct — and if they get into trouble they expect to be protected by the forces of the state.
In this sense, the outrage expressed by Sarkozy and Frederic Mitterrand over Polanski’s arrest can be seen as the instinctive response of the French establishment, who are determined to look after one of their own.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...al-reasons-French-lionise-Roman-Polanski.html

Simply put, it is French snobbery.

And that is in addition to the irrelevant but endless stream of rhetoric from people in the entertainment industry.

That said, the French are now changing their tune:

The French government has dropped its public support for Roman Polanski, saying the 76-year-old director "is neither above nor beneath the law".

The move follows a backlash against a campaign for Polanski's release, with several leading European politicians and cultural figures refusing to join.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/8283707.stm

Perhaps after the initial knee-jerk snobbery reaction they are now realizing that -- 'hey wait a minute, why are we defending/harboring a fugitive convicted rapist?' Or the cynic in me might say that they are only bowing to international pressure.

http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=8721650

That's not the rhetoric from the US you were talking about before, is it? That's rhetoric from France!

 

[russ_watters]

You've said that several times, in contrast to what others have said. Do you have any documentation for this?

Agreed: Count_Iblis, in light of direct cited evidence to the contrary, you need to substantiate that claim or recind it. What you are arguing appears to be straightforwardly factually wrong: Misinformation.

 

[russ_watters]

My actual take on the situation:

It seems clear to me that there were some improprieties in the handling of the original trial. Note that these improprieties are not necessarily all - or even mostly - against Polanski. Based on the severity of the crime and my perception of the quality of the evidence/testimony against him, it looks to me like he got off unreasonably easy. The misconduct at the end between the judge and the prosecutor may simply be a reflection of concern over the unfairly lenient treatment he got. People (such as that idiotic French culture minister cited earlier) have pointed out that there was a "media circus" surrounding the trial and that it was to Polanski's detriment. Given the public support for Polanski in the entertainment industry today, I'd need to see some evidence of that to believe that he doesn't have it backwards (that the circus benefited him, not hurt him).

Polanski has continued to fight the legal fight almost continuously since he fled. Articles from February of this year talk about his attempts to get the case dismissed. Due to the mess that this case appears to be, I think the fairest thing to do would be to declare a mistrial, throw the first trial in the trash and start over from scratch. But I don't think Polanski would be in favor of that because it would expose him to the possibility of actually being held accountable for the full crimes he committed.

 

[Sorry!]

russ, you really enjoy a good argument huh? :D 90% of threads I see you in you're involved in one somehow.

I like that, good man. haha :D.


I don't see why so much conversation has gone on about extradition though. If the Americans wanted him badly enough he would be in America right now. Extraordinary rendition the American government calls it. Who's going to stop them?