Can You Change a 10-Pin Transformer to an 8-Pin One Without Affecting Quality?

In summary, you want to replace a 10-pin transformer with an 8-pin one, but may run into problems if the current exceeds a certain level. You would need to replace the core with one with similar inductance and AL value.
  • #1
heathheath
22
0
Hello everyone!

Firstly, I have very basic knowledge of pcb design and in electrical engineering in general :confused:
I want to ask you if I want to change a 10 pin transformer into a 8 pin one. Would that effect the quality or sth? what consequences does it have ? are pins with more quality better ? or it all depends on the input in the schematic design??

This is the transformer datasheet!
=http://www.powerint.com/sites/default/files/rtss/EPC-13_10pin_TDK_BEPC-13-1110CPH.pdf
I want to replace (BEPC-13-1110CPH)(10pins), with (BEPC-10-118GA)(8pins)!


Thanks a lot in Advance!
Regards,
 
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  • #2
The core you nominate is a newer "surface mount" style more suited for automatic assembly than the older "pins through hole" style.

You are also selecting a smaller core with slightly less magnetic section. That may be a problem if the application has sufficient current to causes magnetic saturation of the core. For small signals you may get away with it, but for power it may be a real problem.
 
  • #3
The datasheet is for a core with 10 or 8 pins, not a transformer. If you need 10 pins, you need 10 pins. If you only need 5, then the only issue is the magnetic characteristics. The number of pins means nothing from an electrical perspective.

What are you doing with it?
 
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  • #4
“I want to replace BEPC-13-1110CPH (10pins), with BEPC-10-118GA (8pins)”
These have different sizes, a different number of pins and a different mounting technology.
They will fit different ferrite cores.

This document lists the ferrite cores that will fit those bobbins. They have different characteristics.
http://pdf.datasheetarchive.com/indexerfiles/Datasheet-055/DSA0020039.pdf

For the ferrite core to stay the same, you would need to replace the BEPC-13-1110CPH with surface mount BEPC-13-1110GA.
These are the available ferrite cores. Part number and AL value.
PC45EPC13-Z 870±25%
PC45EPC13A40 40±4%
PC45EPC13A63 63±5%
PC46EPC13-Z 1050±25%
PC46EPC13A40 40±4%
PC46EPC13A63 63±5%

Changing from size BEPC-13- to size BEPC-10- would require a different size ferrite core.
You would need to select one of these cores with a similar AL value to the original.
PC45EPC10-Z 1000±25%
PC45EPC10A40 40±7%
PC45EPC10A63 63±10%
PC46EPC10-Z 1060±25%
PC46EPC10A40 40±7%
PC46EPC10A63 63±10%
But then magnetic saturation of the ferrite core may be a problem.
 
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  • #5
Baluncore said:
That may be a problem if the application has sufficient current to causes magnetic saturation of the core. For small signals you may get away with it, but for power it may be a real problem.

Hi Baluncore, how can I know if its a small or big signal ? or to know if the current cause saturation ?
 
  • #6
Baluncore said:
“I want to replace BEPC-13-1110CPH (10pins), with BEPC-10-118GA (8pins)”
These have different sizes, a different number of pins and a different mounting technology.
They will fit different ferrite cores.

This document lists the ferrite cores that will fit those bobbins. They have different characteristics.
http://pdf.datasheetarchive.com/indexerfiles/Datasheet-055/DSA0020039.pdf

For the ferrite core to stay the same, you would need to replace the BEPC-13-1110CPH with surface mount BEPC-13-1110GA.
These are the available ferrite cores. Part number and AL value.
PC45EPC13-Z 870±25%
PC45EPC13A40 40±4%
PC45EPC13A63 63±5%
PC46EPC13-Z 1050±25%
PC46EPC13A40 40±4%
PC46EPC13A63 63±5%

Changing from size BEPC-13- to size BEPC-10- would require a different size ferrite core.
You would need to select one of these cores with a similar AL value to the original.
PC45EPC10-Z 1000±25%
PC45EPC10A40 40±7%
PC45EPC10A63 63±10%
PC46EPC10-Z 1060±25%
PC46EPC10A40 40±7%
PC46EPC10A63 63±10%
But then magnetic saturation of the ferrite core may be a problem.

How can I know if magnetic Saturation would or would not be a problem? and do you see any of the options above match with Al values ?

Thanks a lot
 
  • #7
In transformers it's generally the volt-second product that saturates the core.
If you have enough turns a small core will support a large volt-second value because the inductance is large enough to keep the flux reasonable. Remember inductance is flux linkages per ampere, /i.
But a lot of turns implies small wire
so your core has to be physically big enough to accommodate the requisite number of turns of the wire size that'll both provide necessary inductance and handle the current. That's why high power transformers are bigger than low power ones, they need bigger windows for their wires.

To aid in choosing a core manufacturers publish a number relating the number of turns to the inductance
AL

where L = n2AL

It is one of those 'shortcuts' used by transformer designers.

Search around for some transformer design articles. Coilcraft used to have some good ones as did magnetics inc.

A search on 'magnetic design AL parameter' turned up several for me; here's a likely spot to begin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_core

Transformer design isn't hard it's just been streamlined to the point it looks unfamiliar.
 
  • #8
Hi Guyss!
Do you recommend a freelancer engineer, who can help me solve this for an average amount of payment ?

Regards,
Heath
 
  • #9
Oh, c'mon, just do it.

Baluncore said it, when picking a new core match AL so inductance stays same
and you must have enough room for the wires , so match window area too
and all the dimensions look to be on your datasheet

if you can't match or improve those two parameters then you'd best not change the transformer.


Firstly, I have very basic knowledge of pcb design and in electrical engineering in general

time to increase your understanding of transformer basics ?

I'm no transformer designer but i feel it's important for an EE to at least understand them.
Brush up your basics - flux, amp-turns, dø/dt.
Grab this opportunity. Surely there's an old timer in your workplace who'd take kindly to being asked to look over your work.
 
  • #10
Thanks you so much for the advice Jim. The thing is I am an Industrial engineer, with deeper mechanical engineering background, and basic electrical knowledge. Although I am restricted by time, but I will take your advice, and try to get good results. Can I show you the result here ?

Regards,
 
  • #11
Sure.
It wasn't clear to me from the catalog just what core goes with what bobbin, but i didn't work real hard digging at it either.

It did appear that the EPC 10 and EPC 13 cores have different AL values with no air gap
but with air gap they're almost the same. But it didn't say how much air gap.
Do you guys assemble the transformer yourself? Or is it a bought item? If the latter a quick call to TDK's support group should answer whether they can provide it in your desired smaller footprint.

If you assemble it yourself , find your transformer guru and get him talking about how he selected the parts.
If you appear to have prepared yourself and are inquiring rather than challenging him surely he'll be forthcoming - i know i would. You two might be able to test some real parts on the bench.

old jim
 
  • #12
Yes, it is a bought item. I will try to contact Tdk, and see what is possible! Thanks a lot old jim ;)! Its wonderful dedicating your time to answer my questions :)!
best of luck
 
  • #13
Thanks go to Baluncore - i had missed this line in his post
This document lists the ferrite cores that will fit those bobbins. They have different characteristics.
http://pdf.datasheetarchive.com/inde...DSA0020039.pdf

armed with that and an understanding of AsubL you can converse intelligently with your supplier.

best of luck to you

As an engineer, always strive to broaden your understanding of basics. Most folks don't get a chance to delve into magnetics..

end of nag

old jim
 
  • #14
Yes, True old Jim. I know this might sound wired, but I want to send you a gift for helping me, I appreciate your help a lot, can you accept it from me please?

Regards
 
  • #15
The kind words are plenty, thanks.

"Pay it forward" - help somebody out with your expertise.

Baluncore and mBigGuy put the answer out there - all i did was assist with translation. You might click 'thanks' on their posts.

old jim
 
  • #16
heathheath said:
Yes, True old Jim. I know this might sound wired, but I want to send you a gift for helping me, I appreciate your help a lot, can you accept it from me please?

Regards

did you use the THANKS button at the bottom of Jim's post ?


Dave
 
  • #17
davenn said:
did you use the THANKS button at the bottom of Jim's post ?


Dave
Yes Dave, I did
 
  • #18
Hello Jim, mBigGuy, Baluncore !

I found a transformer called Bobbin : EEM12.4. vertical. Its core is EEM12.4 (ferrite material TDK PC40 or equivalent)! Do you have any clue how would I find its data sheet ? I cannot find it!

Jim, I will pay it forward, of course!

Thanks a lot guys, again :)

Heath
 
  • #20
heathheath -- what is the application for this transformer?
 
  • #21
Its a DC voltage converter
 
  • #22
heathheath said:
Its a DC voltage converter

Do you mean DC-DC converter? Or AC-DC converter? What topology are you using? What power level? What are the input and output voltages? What switching frequency are you going to use? Which controller chip? What is your operating temperature range specification?
 
  • #23
Dc-Dc converter. its vertical, input voltages between 90-264 volt. frequency from 47-63 Hz, output voltage is 5v. operating tempreture is 25-40 c , Power is 5w. I do not know what you mean by controller chip nd topology !
 
  • #24
heathheath said:
Dc-Dc converter. its vertical, input voltages between 90-264 volt. frequency from 47-63 Hz, output voltage is 5v. operating tempreture is 25-40 c , Power is 5w. I do not know what you mean by controller chip nd topology !

So the frequency range of your DC input is 47-63Hz? Frequency of DC?

And your input voltage ranges from 90V-264V?

That sure looks like an AC-DC power supply, with a wide input voltage and frequency range to be able to be used world-wide.

So you have no experience with electronics, and you are going to design and build an AC Mains switching power supply with a 5V output. What experience do you have with AC Mains voltages? What safety agency approvals are you planning on getting for this power supply?
 
  • #25
No, I am not going to design anything. I am just looking for some parts, so I can hand them for electrical expert to check the options
 
  • #26
heathheath said:
No, I am not going to design anything. I am just looking for some parts, so I can hand them for electrical expert to check the options

If you give your specs to the electronics expert, they can take care of the transformer selection for you.

The specs you gave are quite common. You can buy such a power supply ("wall wart" or "power brick") inexpensively, and they will come with the appropriate safety agency approvals and CE Mark. Is there a reason that you want to have a custom one built at a large expense, instead of buying an off-the-shelf unit?
 
  • #27
Like this:

https://content.solarbotics.com/products/photos/e71d34d2142919863f088ebeda03513b/med/34015-08269.jpg
34015-08269.jpg
 
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  • #28
yes, then I better pick one off the shelf I think!
 
  • #29
heathheath said:
yes, then I better pick one off the shelf I think!

Good decision! :smile:
 
  • #30
berkeman said:
Good decision! :smile:
I'll never forget when I discovered off-the-shelf, UL Listed, open frame linear supplies. :approve:

sa32-linear-power-supplies_full_1.jpg


image from http://www.snaptec.com.au
 
  • #31
Are those UL Recognized Components or UL Listed Products? I'm guessing they are Recognized Components, since they do not have the AC Mains connections yet (with switch & fuse & grounding, etc.)?

UL Recognized Components:
http://www.ul.com/global/documents/offerings/perspectives/regulators/technical/ul_RecognizedComponentMarks.pdf

UL Listed Products:
http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/perspectives/newtoul/ulmarkproductcertification/

What do the UL labels look like on those power supplies? I've used them in products before, but don't remember what the labels looked like...
 
  • #32
berkeman said:
Are those UL Recognized Components or UL Listed Products? I'm guessing they are Recognized Components, since they do not have the AC Mains connections yet (with switch & fuse & grounding, etc.)?

UL Recognized Components:
http://www.ul.com/global/documents/offerings/perspectives/regulators/technical/ul_RecognizedComponentMarks.pdf

UL Listed Products:
http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/offerings/perspectives/newtoul/ulmarkproductcertification/

What do the UL labels look like on those power supplies? I've used them in products before, but don't remember what the labels looked like...

I just found an image that looked [STRIKE]like[/STRIKE] similar to the open frame supplies I used years ago. At that time, they had this label:

200px-UL_Mark.svg.png
 
Last edited:
  • #33
Evidently "UL is introducing an enhanced version ..."

ul_markshub_certified_logo.png


http://www.ul.com/global/eng/pages/corporate/aboutul/ulmarks/
 
  • #34
I'm guessing that the supplies you used before were the versions that included the power-entry module (IEC connector, fuse, switch). They come in both versions -- with and without power entry module -- for some of the models. When there is no power entry module (just connector lugs for the AC Mains input from a separate power entry module), they almost certainly will be UL Recognized Components, I believe, like the UR(backwards) logo on this open frame power supply:

http://store.flw.com/products/international-power-single-output-linear-power-supply-if24-12.html
 
  • #35
berkeman said:
I'm guessing that the supplies you used before were the versions that included the power-entry module (IEC connector, fuse, switch).
Yes. If I remember correctly, the power-in leads were to be soldered to Line (fuse), Neutral, and Ground terminals.
 
<h2>1. Can a 10-pin transformer be changed to an 8-pin one without affecting quality?</h2><p>Yes, it is possible to change a 10-pin transformer to an 8-pin one without affecting the quality. However, it depends on various factors such as the type of transformer, the voltage and current ratings, and the intended use.</p><h2>2. What are the differences between a 10-pin transformer and an 8-pin one?</h2><p>The main difference between a 10-pin transformer and an 8-pin one is the number of pins or terminals on the transformer. This difference may also indicate variations in the size, shape, and design of the transformer, as well as the voltage and current ratings.</p><h2>3. Can I use an 8-pin transformer in place of a 10-pin one?</h2><p>In most cases, it is not recommended to use an 8-pin transformer in place of a 10-pin one. This is because the two transformers may have different specifications and may not be compatible with each other. It is best to consult a professional or refer to the transformer's datasheet before making any changes.</p><h2>4. How do I know if a 10-pin transformer can be replaced with an 8-pin one?</h2><p>The best way to determine if a 10-pin transformer can be replaced with an 8-pin one is to check the specifications of both transformers. Look for similarities in voltage and current ratings, as well as the intended use. If they are similar, it may be possible to replace the 10-pin transformer with an 8-pin one.</p><h2>5. Are there any risks involved in changing a 10-pin transformer to an 8-pin one?</h2><p>There may be some risks involved in changing a 10-pin transformer to an 8-pin one, especially if the two transformers have different specifications. These risks include compatibility issues, improper functioning, and potential damage to the equipment. It is recommended to seek professional advice before making any changes to a transformer.</p>

1. Can a 10-pin transformer be changed to an 8-pin one without affecting quality?

Yes, it is possible to change a 10-pin transformer to an 8-pin one without affecting the quality. However, it depends on various factors such as the type of transformer, the voltage and current ratings, and the intended use.

2. What are the differences between a 10-pin transformer and an 8-pin one?

The main difference between a 10-pin transformer and an 8-pin one is the number of pins or terminals on the transformer. This difference may also indicate variations in the size, shape, and design of the transformer, as well as the voltage and current ratings.

3. Can I use an 8-pin transformer in place of a 10-pin one?

In most cases, it is not recommended to use an 8-pin transformer in place of a 10-pin one. This is because the two transformers may have different specifications and may not be compatible with each other. It is best to consult a professional or refer to the transformer's datasheet before making any changes.

4. How do I know if a 10-pin transformer can be replaced with an 8-pin one?

The best way to determine if a 10-pin transformer can be replaced with an 8-pin one is to check the specifications of both transformers. Look for similarities in voltage and current ratings, as well as the intended use. If they are similar, it may be possible to replace the 10-pin transformer with an 8-pin one.

5. Are there any risks involved in changing a 10-pin transformer to an 8-pin one?

There may be some risks involved in changing a 10-pin transformer to an 8-pin one, especially if the two transformers have different specifications. These risks include compatibility issues, improper functioning, and potential damage to the equipment. It is recommended to seek professional advice before making any changes to a transformer.

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