How can we improve the efficiency of our penal system?

[KingNothing]

I know people from countries where they just shoot the bad guys. Not much for trials & justice. We spend a lot on housing prisoners in the US.

How can the efficiency be improved?

Disclaimer: sorry for not creating yet another left-vs-right thread.

 

[Drakkith]

It isn't that simple. Many things are a compromise between justice and freedoms. Something that is 100% legal somewhere might be considered inhumane somewhere else. That is one of the primary drives for the different methods of execution over the centuries.

I'm all for reducing costs in prisons and such, but not without compromising prisoner security and safety. Although I'm sure there are areas that need improvement, I just don't know where.

 

[ThomasT]

I know people from countries where they just shoot the bad guys. Not much for trials & justice. We spend a lot on housing prisoners in the US.

How can the efficiency be improved?

Disclaimer: sorry for not creating yet another left-vs-right thread.

The most efficient way to run a prison is to have 1 man cells and keep everybody locked down all the time. But there are other problems.

The immediate problem, and it directly affects the efficiency of the criminal justice system as well as the living conditions of inmates, is that there aren't enough prisons or enough space in county jails. Lots of people get released early.

So, the first thing to do is to build more prisons and expand county jail space where needed.

Anyway, given the current 'system' we can be assured that the general society will be populated at any given time by lots individuals who should probably be behind bars. (I think my new neighbors qualify. They've been here about ten days during which they've destroyed one of their window screens and a fence door to a common area in the back, as well as keeping a constantly yelping pit bull pup tied to a post outside. The good news is that they're getting evicted.)

 

[KingNothing]

It isn't that simple.

What isn't that simple? I didn't even propose any ideas. I wasn't saying that we should 'just shoot em'.

 

[Drakkith]

What isn't that simple? I didn't even propose any ideas. I wasn't saying that we should 'just shoot em'.

That wasn't what I got from your post. And even then, improving the efficiency of the prison system still isn't easy. Many of the improvements could contradict freedoms and rights of the prisoners even if it is more efficient. Also, what exactly do you mean by efficient? Doing more for less money? Increased security through efficient (but possibly costly) means? Or something else?

 

[lisab]

I think it would be efficient to first identify the sociopaths. They aren't capable of being rehabilitated, so we shouldn't spend money trying. (Withholding treatment because of a mental condition is probably illegal, btw.)

Young offenders who aren't sociopaths - they are probably the best bang for the buck, WRT rehabilitation.

All those in between the sociopaths and the young offenders...sigh. I just don't know.

 

[ThomasT]

I think it would be efficient to first identify the sociopaths. They aren't capable of being rehabilitated, so we shouldn't spend money trying. (Withholding treatment because of a mental condition is probably illegal, btw.)

Young offenders who aren't sociopaths - they are probably the best bang for the buck, WRT rehabilitation.

All those in between the sociopaths and the young offenders...sigh. I just don't know.

Well, nobody knows, as far as I know.
I don't think we have the technology to identify sociopaths. Anyway, being a sociopath doesn't automatically lead to being a bad person, or being a person who does bad things. Stupid sociopaths are of course a big problem. In fact, stupid people in general are a big problem.

Prisons aren't designed to, and don't, rehabilitate people. We don't have the technology to do that. All that can be done is to get serious offenders off the street for as long as possible given current laws. The bottom line is that once a person has done something to warrant imprisonment, then there's no objective criterion according to which he/she should ever be released, because, statistically, he/she is quite likely to offend, and get caught, again. This is the 'stupid factor' at work. And, as the saying goes, there's no cure for stupid.

It's all just a big crap shoot, from the sentences handed down by judges to the decisions of parole and probation officers, etc., etc.

Wrt the OP, maybe prisons can be run a bit more efficiently. But we're still faced with the problem that there is no clear cut extant technology to change people's attitudes. The simple fact is that as the population increases then so will the number of people qualifying for incarceration -- and once we put somebody away, we really can't ever tell if they're ok to be part of society's general population again.

 

[mege]

While I'm not in the 'legalize drugs!' crowd, I feel that there are far too many inherently non-dangerous offenders that get locked away (but I do understand drug trade = gangs, violence, etc so it's a fine line). I think one of our major issues is that we're using jail as a purely punative measure for some with a hope of rehabilitation rather than as a 'seperation' measure to keep dangerous folks out of society.

I think there's better punative measures that can be employed - community service, humiliation rituals (breadboard corner-stands), etc.

Do rapists, murderers and child abusers need to be locked away? Absolutely. In fact, I think we're too soft in some of these cases (esspecially with child abuse)
Do small white-collar crimes, pot-smokers and jaywalkers need to be imprisioned? Likely not.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

(but I do understand drug trade = gangs, violence, etc so it's a fine line

..which result mainly because drugs are illegal in the first place. It is about the money, not the drugs.

The war on the inner cities, our courts, our jails, and even our schools, are a direct result of drug laws. They have broken the system.

 

[ThomasT]

..which result mainly because drugs are illegal in the first place. It is about the money, not the drugs.

The war on the inner cities, our courts, our jails, and even our schools, are a direct result of drug laws. They have broken the system.

I have to agree. So it seems that a comprehensive program dealing with improving the efficiency of our penal system should start with reforming/revamping the drug laws.

At least, I'd like to see serious conversations about this in the major media. But most politicians are afraid to even talk about it.

 

[Drakkith]

I have to agree. So it seems that a comprehensive program dealing with improving the efficiency of our penal system should start with reforming/revamping the drug laws.

At least, I'd like to see serious conversations about this in the major media. But most politicians are afraid to even talk about it.

That's because of the prevailing attitude of drugs = going to hell/gang member/terrible person or similar in the public. So the very thought of someone doing them and NOT going to prison makes the majority of people gasp.

It's sad that many drug users probably aren't terrible people. Just addicts.

 

[SixNein]

I know people from countries where they just shoot the bad guys. Not much for trials & justice. We spend a lot on housing prisoners in the US.

How can the efficiency be improved?

Disclaimer: sorry for not creating yet another left-vs-right thread.

I would like to see a greater effort on reforming and socializing prisoners. When we send someone to prison, they should come out a better person instead of worse. The purpose of prison is to reform prisoners not simply punish.

 

[ThomasT]

I would like to see a greater effort on reforming and socializing prisoners. When we send someone to prison, they should come out a better person instead of worse. The purpose of prison is to reform prisoners not simply punish.

The purpose of prison is to warehouse offenders who've been sentenced to a term of imprisonment. We simply don't have the technology to reform people. How would you know if a person's attitudes have changed? People will say and do just about anything to get out of prison.

 

[Proton Soup]

..which result mainly because drugs are illegal in the first place. It is about the money, not the drugs.

The war on the inner cities, our courts, our jails, and even our schools, are a direct result of drug laws. They have broken the system.

well, we've been in afghanistan for about a decade now, and we haven't killed the poppies. and we occasionally catch the CIA running drugs. the executive branch loves this stuff.

 

[Drakkith]

well, we've been in afghanistan for about a decade now, and we haven't killed the poppies. and we occasionally catch the CIA running drugs. the executive branch loves this stuff.

No, the CIA isn't running the drugs. Individuals are the ones that are doing it, they just belong to the CIA. That's like saying the Military is allowing drug use just because there are always a few members doing it. Plenty get caught, but we have so many new people come in every year that someone will always be doing it somewhere.

 

[WhoWee]

I know people from countries where they just shoot the bad guys. Not much for trials & justice. We spend a lot on housing prisoners in the US.

How can the efficiency be improved?

Disclaimer: sorry for not creating yet another left-vs-right thread.

Outsource to (perhaps) Turkey for $5,000/year per inmate?

 

[Proton Soup]

No, the CIA isn't running the drugs. Individuals are the ones that are doing it, they just belong to the CIA. That's like saying the Military is allowing drug use just because there are always a few members doing it. Plenty get caught, but we have so many new people come in every year that someone will always be doing it somewhere.

and they just happen to fund the Contras and Mujaheddin.

 

[Drakkith]

And those are what?

 

[256bits]

Oliver North comes to mind - Contras
Soviet war in Afghanistan - Mujaheddin

But back to penal system . . .
Send them all to Australia like the British did.
And give Alkatraz (spelling) a new paint job and open it up.
Would that not be a deterence to commiiting a crime.

Anyways a criminal is only someone who has been caught.

 

[WhoWee]

Oliver North comes to mind - Contras
Soviet war in Afghanistan - Mujaheddin

But back to penal system . . .
Send them all to Australia like the British did.
And give Alkatraz (spelling) a new paint job and open it up.
Would that not be a deterence to commiiting a crime.

Anyways a criminal is only someone who has been caught.

Australia might not want them - I'd talk to Turkey offer $5,000 per head and they supply medical/dental and food.

 

[Drakkith]

Oliver North comes to mind - Contras
Soviet war in Afghanistan - Mujaheddin

Thanks 256bits.

Proton, I'm not really seeing the correlation between drug running and this. Funding guerrillas to oppose a government is not the same thing as drug running. But I will admit I don't really know enough to argue the issue, so I say we drop it for now.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Legalize marijuana. I don't think many harder drugs should be legalized if any but if we drop it as a crime to do them and only go after the dealers and suppliers there will likely be fewer people in jail. Most people who do drugs have a hard time as it is getting employment. After doing time in jail it probably becomes next to impossible. If they come out of jail with no job and no money they are that much more likely to go back to doing drugs and highly likely to commit crimes in order to make money and get more drugs.

Legalize prostitution. Drugs and prostitution tend to be rather closely linked. If you make the job legal, give them a safe environment, and check them for needle use at the least then you could probably nearly extinguish a whole class of offenders as well as reduce the drug problem to some degree. I understand drugs tend to go with the sex trade legal or otherwise so I am not so optimistic about that end but it could vary well help.

Better education. The vast majority of criminals little to no education which likely contributes in many ways to their becoming criminals and staying criminals. More educational opportunities for people in prison as well and (since I am sure the opportunities do already exist in many prisons) more incentive to take up those opportunities.

Lastly, stop treating policing and prosecution as a business. With our overcrowded prisons here in California it never ceases to amaze me the degree to which officers seem to feel they need to make busts and send people to jail. I am sure that the prosecution has pressure on them to get convictions as well. The necessity for officers and the justification for spending on the police should not be measured by how many people they send to jail. One way or another we need them and they need the money to do their jobs so just give it to them.

 

[mege]

Legalize marijuana. I don't think many harder drugs should be legalized if any but if we drop it as a crime to do them and only go after the dealers and suppliers there will likely be fewer people in jail. Most people who do drugs have a hard time as it is getting employment. After doing time in jail it probably becomes next to impossible. If they come out of jail with no job and no money they are that much more likely to go back to doing drugs and highly likely to commit crimes in order to make money and get more drugs.

Legalize prostitution. Drugs and prostitution tend to be rather closely linked. If you make the job legal, give them a safe environment, and check them for needle use at the least then you could probably nearly extinguish a whole class of offenders as well as reduce the drug problem to some degree. I understand drugs tend to go with the sex trade legal or otherwise so I am not so optimistic about that end but it could vary well help.

Better education. The vast majority of criminals little to no education which likely contributes in many ways to their becoming criminals and staying criminals. More educational opportunities for people in prison as well and (since I am sure the opportunities do already exist in many prisons) more incentive to take up those opportunities.

Lastly, stop treating policing and prosecution as a business. With our overcrowded prisons here in California it never ceases to amaze me the degree to which officers seem to feel they need to make busts and send people to jail. I am sure that the prosecution has pressure on them to get convictions as well. The necessity for officers and the justification for spending on the police should not be measured by how many people they send to jail. One way or another we need them and they need the money to do their jobs so just give it to them.

I wonder if there's any data comparing the overall crime rate in states/localities where prostitution is legal and not in the US.

Re: Education. I'm reminded of an episode of House, MD where their patient is a Deathrow inmate (multiple violent murders) whom has some health issues before being put to death. They find that he has a condition which causes adrenaline to increase significantly when his heart rate reaches a certain threshold. The inmate always comments on his murders 'I just don't remember doing it' indicating that he's raging. They're able to repair the condition and then question if it's any worth to make an appeals case for him to not be on death row any more as they may have 'solved' his aggressive behavior. Dr. House then responds, "What about every other person with this condition that learned to live with it and not kill people?" Point being: how much can you give someone the benefit of the doubt for their 'condition' (social, health, racial, whatever it may be) when there's lots of examples of others overcoming those same hurdles and living productive, non-criminal lives?

 

[WhoWee]

Legalize marijuana. I don't think many harder drugs should be legalized if any but if we drop it as a crime to do them and only go after the dealers and suppliers there will likely be fewer people in jail. Most people who do drugs have a hard time as it is getting employment. After doing time in jail it probably becomes next to impossible. If they come out of jail with no job and no money they are that much more likely to go back to doing drugs and highly likely to commit crimes in order to make money and get more drugs.

There are always unintended consequences. The one I predict would be everyone smoking pot on a daily basis would then be eligible for Social Security Disability because they smoke too much - thereby shifting the cost of prisons to the welfare state.

 

[chiro]

Australia might not want them - I'd talk to Turkey offer $5,000 per head and they supply medical/dental and food.

Haha guys, we don't live back in 1700/1800's.

As for over population, decriminalization of drugs would be a start.

Make the drugs legal, place restrictions on quality and who can sell them like they do in other countries (the Netherlands is a good example).

Also make sure things like no driving under the influence, no minors, and so on (exactly the same sort of rules in place for alcohol and nicotine and other legal drugs) just for the people that are wondering about that kind of thing.

Cheap, good quality, regulated drugs IMO are a lot better than the crap many countries have now. If people want to take drugs, let them do at their own expense and reduce crap like crime and drug money going into organized crime.

 

[WhoWee]

Here's an idea -given the US Government owns about 1/3 of the land mostly in the west - why not relocate a few of the older and larger populations to nice large penal reservations - where the inmates can grow their own crops and animals - even sell them on the open market. The facilities could include wind and solar facilities cared for by the inmates and feed the US energy demand. If the inmates had something to do each day (other than engage in gang activity and lawsuits for instance) they might find peace and satisfaction from their experience?

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Here's an idea -given the US Government owns about 1/3 of the land mostly in the west - why not relocate a few of the older and larger populations to nice large penal reservations - where the inmates can grow their own crops and animals - even sell them on the open market. The facilities could include wind and solar facilities cared for by the inmates and feed the US energy demand. If the inmates had something to do each day (other than engage in gang activity and lawsuits for instance) they might find peace and satisfaction from their experience?

I like this idea. A long time ago I heard of an experimental prison (can't remember where but it was in the EU) where the facility tried to emulate a real society. Prisoners earned money (fake) for tasks and could use them to buy certain things like an hour of free time outside of the cell or a ticket to the cinema room. They were encouraged to socialise with each other through schemes such as doing activity X requires two people. Committing crimes i.e. breaking the rules resulted in a loss of money and privileges. If you break the rules often you live a solidarity life in a small cell on bland food with no entertainment.

I never found a reference to this prison so I have no idea if it really exists. However what the person was telling me still stands, I think the idea of turning prisons into retraining centres which emulate society would be a far better idea than locking up criminals with other criminals so that they can all sit around and become worse criminals.

 

[WhoWee]

I like this idea. A long time ago I heard of an experimental prison (can't remember where but it was in the EU) where the facility tried to emulate a real society. Prisoners earned money (fake) for tasks and could use them to buy certain things like an hour of free time outside of the cell or a ticket to the cinema room. They were encouraged to socialise with each other through schemes such as doing activity X requires two people. Committing crimes i.e. breaking the rules resulted in a loss of money and privileges. If you break the rules often you live a solidarity life in a small cell on bland food with no entertainment.

I never found a reference to this prison so I have no idea if it really exists. However what the person was telling me still stands, I think the idea of turning prisons into retraining centres which emulate society would be a far better idea than locking up criminals with other criminals so that they can all sit around and become worse criminals.

I look at it this way - the primary concern for a prison inmate currently is survival (in a bad way) - coupled with a group dynamic (gangs). Why not maintain the priority of survival (strong motivator) and couple it with team work to achieve a common purpose?

To begin the program, I would make it voluntary - give the non-violent inmates and people who want to reform or a chance.

 

[ThomasT]

WhoWee, ryan_m_b, et al, the idea is to improve the efficiency of the penal system. Just about all the problems in prisons arise from situations where prisoners are in contact with other people. The most expedient and efficient way to deal with this is to keep them locked in their, preferably single person, cells. Some maximum security prisons have been doing this for quite some time now.

By taking the food prep, laundry, etc. duties away from prisoners these jobs can then be given to law abiding people who need work, which would help the economy. Building more prisons and expanding the space of county facilities also provides jobs for law abiding people, which also helps the economy, and also positively affects the efficiency of the criminal justice system in general.

The idea of legalizing recreational drug usage, manufacture and sales, and prostitution, and taking control away from criminals seems like a very good idea.

 

[WhoWee]

WhoWee, ryan_m_b, et al, the idea is to improve the efficiency of the penal system. Just about all the problems in prisons arise from situations where prisoners are in contact with other people. The most expedient and efficient way to deal with this is to keep them locked in their, preferably single person, cells. Some maximum security prisons have been doing this for quite some time now.

By taking the food prep, laundry, etc. duties away from prisoners these jobs can then be given to law abiding people who need work, which would help the economy. Building more prisons and expanding the space of county facilities also provides jobs for law abiding people, which also helps the economy, and also positively affects the efficiency of the criminal justice system in general.

The idea of legalizing recreational drug usage, manufacture and sales, and prostitution, and taking control away from criminals seems like a very good idea.

I would agree with one stipulation - anyone testing positive for illegal drugs would not be eligible for Government assistance of any type.

 

[turbo]

Instead of counseling and treating addicts, the US often shoves them into the criminal court system and incarcerates them. We incarcerate more people than any other country on earth, and a disproportionate number of the prisoners are black. Can anyone think of ways to improve this?

 

[ThomasT]

I would agree with one stipulation - anyone testing positive for illegal drugs would not be eligible for Government assistance of any type.

What is it you're agreeing with? If drugs are legalized in order to take control away from the criminals, then the usual recreational drugs won't be illegal. Things like marijuana, cocaine, and heroin would join alcohol and nicotine as legal, but regulated (and taxed), drugs.

So, who would be ineligible for government assistance on account of their drug use?

 

[ThomasT]

Instead of counseling and treating addicts, the US often shoves them into the criminal court system and incarcerates them.

Which sets the stage for lots of the corruption in prisons. And also does nothing to help the addict quit his addiction.

We incarcerate more people than any other country on Earth ...

Even without the drug-related incarcerations, I have this feeling that the US just has more criminally oriented people than other societies.

... and a disproportionate number of the prisoners are black.

If you're talking about the inner cities of large urban areas, then these are predominantly populated by blacks, and, increasingly, latinos and hispanics. And since that's where more crime occurs, then it follows that more blacks end up getting arrested.

Most gangs, and gang members, are black, although the numbers of latinos and hispanics wrt this are probably (I'm guessing) increasing at a faster rate.

Can anyone think of ways to improve this?

Take the drug manufacturing, distribution and sales out of the hands of criminals by legalizing and regulating it.

 

[mege]

Instead of counseling and treating addicts, the US often shoves them into the criminal court system and incarcerates them. We incarcerate more people than any other country on earth, and a disproportionate number of the prisoners are black. Can anyone think of ways to improve this?

I think most agree that petty drug offenses are something that need to be treated differently. What happens, however, when you have a violent crime that was likely caused by a drug interaction (either by use or in a transaction). Is that any more excusable because the person was high? There's already a precident against that - drunk driving. We, as a society, have chosen to make intoxicated crimes even further punishable because of the irresponsibility involved.

I wonder what the statistics look like, now that I think about it, of people that are in jail JUST for drug posession/sale without any associated violent or victim based crime?

 

[ThomasT]

I think most agree that petty drug offenses are something that need to be treated differently. What happens, however, when you have a violent crime that was likely caused by a drug interaction (either by use or in a transaction).

A main part of the argument for legalizing drugs is that lots of violent crimes are related to the illegality of drugs.