Electromagnet + P.Magnet interaction + C-EMF

In summary: Right or Wrong?In the wrong orientation, the magnet will turn (if it can) and be attracted afterwards.
  • #1
Miyz
200
0
Hello :)I was working on a project for one of my classes, and it had to do with electromagnets + magnet's B field interactions(A simple demonstration of a few laws of electromagnetism).

Basically its a simple configuration like this random photo I found:
http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/353/duallayercoilforcounter.jpg [Broken]

Where you can see a permanent magnet and a coil(that we can consider as an electromagnet for the sake of illustration).

Ok, I was thinking about lenz's laws, started to think deeply about counter-EMF more and more.

Based on the configuration you see in the image:

1) In order for the C-EMF to be generated, does the magnet need to pass through the whole electromagnet? Or that's not necessary? If the magnet was rotating or moving near by the coil still C-EMF would be generated?

2) Imagine the magnets where on a mobile cart that has low friction as possibile. The B field created by the electromagnet(Em1) is weaker than of the permanent magnet(Pm1). In theory if the magnet was in motion near by the electromagnet the C-EMF would be higher than the input EMF, thus the total current flow would be zero or a negative. Due to the greater C-EMF. Now the question is the following: Although Em1's B field is weaker than Pm1's field... Can Em1 still attract/repel Pm1? Without consuming more energy from the power source.

I believe Em1 can do so... It can attract Pm1 and move the cart closer/farther depending on the type of magnetic force applied.

Hope that I made good sense :tongue:

Thank you!
Miyze,
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Engineering news on Phys.org
  • #2
1) In order for the C-EMF to be generated, does the magnet need to pass through the whole electromagnet? Or that's not necessary? If the magnet was rotating or moving near by the coil still C-EMF would be generated?
The magnet has to move (close enough to the coil to influence it) or the current in the coil has to change. Rotating is fine, too, if it is not around its symmetry axis (=axis of the magnetic field). Moving the coil relative to the magnet works as well.
In theory if the magnet was in motion near by the electromagnet the C-EMF would be higher than the input EMF, thus the total current flow would be zero or a negative.
Depends on the setup.
Although Em1's B field is weaker than Pm1's field... Can Em1 still attract/repel Pm1?
As long as you have a field in both, they can attract or repel each other.
Without consuming more energy from the power source.
Might need a deeper analysis of the specific setup.
 
  • #3
mfb said:
As long as you have a field in both, they can attract or repel each other.

But wouldn't the C-EMF cause a major problem? I mean if Em1 is attracting Pm1 from a far, that force of attraction would cause the cart to move the magnet(Pm1) closer and closer, however, as the magnet gets closer! A greater C-EMF is generated and would lead the electromagnet to lose it power. I was thinking in theory that would cause the magnet to be repelled because of the C-EMF... My whole worry is that the C-EMF could cause a problem that will not allow the magnet to be fully attracted by the electromagnet.
 
  • #4
mfb said:
Depends on the setup.

What if the setup was based on the question? Weak B field from Em1 and a stronger B field from Pm1 the current can't increase the input was stable (In theory).
Generally...Would the current increase of the C-EMF was higher?
 
  • #5
But wouldn't the C-EMF cause a major problem?
Problem for what?

My whole worry is that the C-EMF could cause a problem that will not allow the magnet to be fully attracted by the electromagnet.
If you power the electromagnet with the correct orientation, you will fully attract the magnet. In the wrong orientation, the magnet will turn (if it can) and be attracted afterwards. This assumes that the force is strong enough to overcome friction in the system, of course.
 
  • #6
mfb said:
Problem for what?

Sine the magnet's field is way stronger than of the electromagnet I worry about the C-EMF generated from the magnet being attracted closer to the electromagnet would be a problem! The C-EMF would obviously be greater than the input EMF supplied to the magnet.

Thats the problem... I feel for some reason this problem will not occur. But have to make sure!
Don't want to fail while finishing my set up!

mfb said:
If you power the electromagnet with the correct orientation, you will fully attract the magnet. In the wrong orientation, the magnet will turn (if it can) and be attracted afterwards. This assumes that the force is strong enough to overcome friction in the system, of course.

Even if the magnet's magnetic field is much more stronger than of the electromagnet, can the electromagnet still attract it?
And when you mean by orientation... Thats the poles right? Since you said "the magnet will turn and be attracted afterword" thought it would flip for the right pole and be attracted.
 
  • #7
Ah the confusion... :tongue:
 
  • #8
Miyz said:
Sine the magnet's field is way stronger than of the electromagnet I worry about the C-EMF generated from the magnet being attracted closer to the electromagnet would be a problem! The C-EMF would obviously be greater than the input EMF supplied to the magnet.
The fact that the magnet's field is stronger is not relevant. The counter EMF is due to a change in the field. So, for sufficiently low electromagnet fields the force will be very weak so the motion will be very slow so the change in the field will be small so the counter EMF will be very low.
 
  • #9
Hey Dale,
Thanks for joining in!

DaleSpam said:
The fact that the magnet's field is stronger is not relevant.
Why isn't it relevant?

DaleSpam said:
The counter EMF is due to a change in the field.

Of both the permanent magnet and of the electromagnet?

DaleSpam said:
So, for sufficiently low electromagnet fields the force will be very weak so the motion will be very slow so the change in the field will be small so the counter EMF will be very low.

Well wouldn't the speed of motion depend on the force of attraction we're dealing with in the set up? + The force of attraction is not solely applied by the electromagnet but of both the magnet + electromagnet acting on each other. I came up with that based on Newtons laws... Because it still will apply in electromagnetism wouldn't it?
 
Last edited:
  • #10
Ah, now I'm lost again! While reading more about Newton's third law, I found this statement here:

"Another demonstration might be to show two bar magnets. Choose one that is stronger than the other; demonstrate this by showing that one can lift a greater iron weight than the other.

Ask: If the two magnets attract one another, will one pull more strongly than the other? The answer is, no. You can feel that they pull each other equally. (This is because the force is proportional to the strength of each.)

If magnet A pulled magnet B more strongly than B pulled A, you could attach B to the front of your car and lean out, holding A in front. Your car would move effortlessly!"

You can apply this example to my set up, by replacing magnet B with my electromagnet.
Yet, this makes no sense to me... How is it that a stronger source is applying the same amount of "force" to a weaker one...
 
  • #11
You get the same effect everywhere, for example with gravity: The force between two objects is mMG/r^2 - for both objects. Moon pulls on Earth with the same force Earth pulls on moon - but as our Earth is more massive, its acceleration is smaller.

"Strong" just means "more influence between this object and another one".
 
  • #12
I just realized how I CONFUSED both ideas and principles.
I'll review my statement and study my project and return with more feedback!
 
  • #13
mfb and Dale, thank you for your efforts!
Much appreciated.I've reached to a conclusion that still the electromagnet will be able to move the cart with the magnet to the desired point!
C-EMF is not an issue since, the magnet itself is not close enough to induce any current.
It has to be attracted closer and even then! It will not have much speed to even cause a problem. The electromagnet being weaker in strength will be able to fully attract the magnet.

Now the motion will depend on many factors, but its certainly not only due from the electromagnet! But from BOTH forces in the system: The electromagnet's force + The magnet!.

Even if the C-EMF were to be a problem, we can switch the power off, and due to the momentum gained, the cart can move freely to the desired point. There is low friction of course.
I hope this is right!
 
Last edited:
  • #14
I hope anyone can give me back feedback on my final post.
 
  • #15
Miyz said:
I've reached to a conclusion that still the electromagnet will be able to move the cart with the magnet to the desired point!
C-EMF is not an issue since, the magnet itself is not close enough to induce any current.
It has to be attracted closer and even then! It will not have much speed to even cause a problem. The electromagnet being weaker in strength will be able to fully attract the magnet.

Now the motion will depend on many factors, but its certainly not only due from the electromagnet! But from BOTH forces in the system: The electromagnet's force + The magnet!.

Even if the C-EMF were to be a problem, we can switch the power off, and due to the momentum gained, the cart can move freely to the desired point. There is low friction of course.
I hope this is right!
I agree with your conclusion and analysis except for the bold part. The distance only changes how much current is needed in the electromagnet, but the main point is that C-EMF is not an issue while the permanent magnet is moving slowly. Once it starts moving quickly then, as you say, it will continue due to momentum. Any C-EMF at that point can be used to generate electrical power even.
 
  • #16
DaleSpam said:
I agree with your conclusion and analysis except for the bold part. The distance only changes how much current is needed in the electromagnet, but the main point is that C-EMF is not an issue while the permanent magnet is moving slowly. Once it starts moving quickly then, as you say, it will continue due to momentum. Any C-EMF at that point can be used to generate electrical power even.

I'm sorry, the magnet will not be far it actually will be close, close enough to be attracted RAPIDLY by the electromagnet, since I'm limiting the input current. The electromagnet will have to draw more and more current to resist the C-EMF, however, I can manually monitor the C-EMF if it is indeed greater than the input EMF, I'll just shut the power off. Causing the magnet to be attracted and move due to the momentum. In terms of how fast? Well that will depend with the amount of force being applied more specifically the kinds of B fields I am going to work with. But Thanks Dale!
Much appreciated!
 
Last edited:

1. What is an electromagnet?

An electromagnet is a type of magnet that uses electricity to create a magnetic field. It is made up of a coil of wire wrapped around a core material such as iron. When an electric current flows through the wire, it creates a magnetic field around the coil.

2. What is a permanent magnet?

A permanent magnet is a type of magnet that produces its own persistent magnetic field. It is made of a material such as iron, nickel, or cobalt that has been magnetized.

3. How do electromagnets and permanent magnets interact?

When an electromagnet and a permanent magnet are brought close together, they will interact with each other. The magnetic fields of the two magnets will either attract or repel each other, depending on their orientation.

4. What is C-EMF?

C-EMF stands for "counter electromotive force." It is the voltage that is induced in a conductor when it moves through a magnetic field. This force is generated due to the interaction between the conductor's magnetic field and the external magnetic field.

5. How does C-EMF affect the interaction between electromagnets and permanent magnets?

C-EMF can affect the interaction between electromagnets and permanent magnets by producing a force that opposes the motion of the conductor. This can result in a weaker interaction between the two magnets, as the C-EMF acts as a counterforce to the magnetic attraction or repulsion between them.

Similar threads

  • Electrical Engineering
Replies
14
Views
3K
Replies
64
Views
5K
  • Electrical Engineering
Replies
7
Views
1K
  • Electrical Engineering
Replies
9
Views
3K
  • Electrical Engineering
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • Electrical Engineering
Replies
1
Views
1K
Replies
1
Views
1K
Replies
11
Views
6K
  • Electrical Engineering
Replies
1
Views
956
  • Electrical Engineering
Replies
9
Views
2K
Back
Top