8.9 earthquake in Japan: tsunami warnings

[Newai]

What gets me is the people that keep driving toward the flood waters. Clearly some are not paying attention to the unfolding disaster.

I've been thinking about this and I suppose that from their perspective on the ground they might not have seen it for the danger it really posed.

 

[nismaratwork]

Geiger counter readings from a friend in a southwest suburb of Tokyo
http://park18.wakwak.com/~weather/geiger_index.html

...And the CPM just doubled to an average of about 40. That's not good.

edit: How much of that is alpha emitting? I'd love to know to figure the Q factor in conversion to miliSieverts/hour...

 

[nismaratwork]

CNN is reporting that unit 2 may well have been fully compromised, and there is a report of a fire in/around unit 4.

 

[Astronuc]

NHK saying that the reactor vessel is breached and fission products are escaping is probably reliable.

I have a question for Astronuc: If you lived in Hawaii... would you stick around or get out?

If I was in Hawaii - I'd stay put.

If it was up to me - personally - I'd be at Fukushima Daiichi right now.

 

[nismaratwork]

If I was in Hawaii - I'd stay put.

If it was up to me - personally - I'd be at Fukushima Daiichi right now.

Heh... understood. Still... I'm glad that you're not.

 

[Angry Citizen]

If it was up to me - personally - I'd be at Fukushima Daiichi right now.

Okay Astronuc. Here's two important questions. First is, worst case scenario, how bad could this get? Second is, if you were within a mile of Fukushima, would you be worried about your health?

Also, I can't help but point out to everyone else that this thread is a really, really bad time to be chatting about 'stress relief' and assorted other garbage. This is the best news source many of us have right now because the mass media is piss-poor. I know I'm not a moderator, and in fact am just a nobody, but can we please keep the off-topic nonsense to other threads? I don't want to keep coming to this thread for information only to find people discussing non-earthquake-related things.

 

[Astronuc]

Okay Astronuc. Here's two important questions. First is, worst case scenario, how bad could this get? Second is, if you were within a mile of Fukushima, would you be worried about your health?

Also, I can't help but point out to everyone else that this thread is a really, really bad time to be chatting about 'stress relief' and assorted other garbage. This is the best news source many of us have right now because the mass media is piss-poor. I know I'm not a moderator, and in fact am just a nobody, but can we please keep the off-topic nonsense to other threads? I don't want to keep coming to this thread for information only to find people discussing non-earthquake-related things.

If I went - I would not take my wife or kids. I wouldn't put others at risk. I would be concerned about long term effects if the activity was sustained. Clearly there are people in the area - the plant staff - who are trying to minimize the consequences of this accident/failure.

For those interested in the weather patterns in the northern Pacific see:
http://www.stormsurfing.com/cgi/display_alt.cgi?a=npac_250

I'd like to find better sources from GOES and other satellites.

I am concerned about the local consequences and the activity numbers, but I don't know the quality or context of the numbers. I'd like to know the isotopes.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Readings shot up a bit, but coming down now
http://park18.wakwak.com/~weather/geiger_index.html

 

[OmCheeto]

If I was in Hawaii - I'd stay put.

If it was up to me - personally - I'd be at Fukushima Daiichi right now.

Me too. There is nothing so wonderful like an impossible problem to fix.

But I'll go in your stead, and text you with all that is going on.
You've a wife and kids after all, and I've not.

hmm...

weird.

I just learned the phrase "nanaimo sheedonai" just a couple of weeks ago.
what a strange and coincidental world we live in.

 

[Borg]

Oh Oh Oh Oh Oh Skittles!
Son of a goat's bastard offspring!

CNN reporting NHK: The reactor vessel (not sure which) is "probably" breached with radiation and pressure leaks in the vessel.

What next? Volcano... done... earthquake... done... tsunami... done... meltdown.. ongoing... seriously, what next?

Cyclones and meteor strikes? :uhh:

I just learned the phrase "nanaimo sheedonai" just a couple of weeks ago.
what a strange and coincidental world we live in.

My own personal coincidence is that I've have been refreshing my knowledge of modern physics over the last few months. This weekend, I made it to chapter 30 - the section on nuclear reactions.

BTW, what does "nanaimo sheedonai" mean? All I get in Google is a reference to towns in Canada and Japan (nanaimo).

 

[rhody]

From http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2011/03/15/radiation-fears-mount-explosions-rock-japanese-nuclear-plant/" this morning...

It seems my fear of the spent nuclear fuel being compromised yesterday was correct:

There were two explosions on Tuesday at two of the reactors at the nuclear facility after days of frantic efforts to cool them. Japan told the U.N. nuclear watchdog a spent fuel storage "pond" was on fire and radioactivity was being released "directly" into the atmosphere.

and

Japanese media have became more critical of Kan's handling of the disaster and criticized the government and nuclear plant operator TEPCO for their failure to provide enough information on the incident.

Bingo... as has been followed here on PF, enough said...

Rhody...

P.S. I feel sick... really...

 

[Astronuc]

While a few days ago I could say that the situation was more like TMI-2, primarily in the core dynamics, based on the activity release, it's seeming more like Chernobyl. I don't think the cores will melt the Chernobyl did, but the activity releases are high (not quantifiable at the moment).

I'm waiting for better information.

Whatever the industry PR - this is a colossal failure in several areas.

US utilities, especially with plants that have BWRs with Mk I containment, have already started review processes on their plant designs and emergency operating procedures, to ensure to the extent possible, that this event will not happen in the US.

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS_Possible_damage_at_Fukushima_Daiichi_2_1503111.html

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

I just learned the phrase "nanaimo sheedonai" just a couple of weeks ago.

Nanimo shiranai? That would mean "I don't know anything."

 

[OmCheeto]

Nanimo shiranai? That would mean "I don't know anything."

I usually spell the phrase as I hear it. To be truthful, that's pretty much all I know how to say in those 30 or so https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3045669&postcount=73". It's a silly hobby, but an excellent conversation starter when meeting people from different lands. Om cheeto means "I know nothing" in Cantonese.

But I have the feeling we are going to hear a lot of "Nanimo shiranai", from a few Japanese exec's in the next few months/years. Though I may be inappropriately projecting my own prejudices based on http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/oct/26/citigroup-exec-forgetful-on-witness-stand-in-nyc/" .

 

[nismaratwork]

Cyclones and meteor strikes? :uhh:

My own personal coincidence is that I've have been refreshing my knowledge of modern physics over the last few months. This weekend, I made it to chapter 30 - the section on nuclear reactions.

BTW, what does "nanaimo sheedonai" mean? All I get in Google is a reference to towns in Canada and Japan (nanaimo).

You actually cheered me up with that...

...I clearly have deep-seated issues. :tongue:

@Astronuc & @Greg: That friend of Greg's... I can't believe that spike, and I hate to think of what the conversion to mSv would be if it's alpha emitters in the mix. AFAIK 100 CPM is a very rough conversion to 1 REM/minute... which if I remember correctly would mean a potentially fatal dose in 8-12 hours of constant exposure at that level with a Q factor of 1. (I know, Q only matters for Sv, not REM).

I'm glad that subsided, but that's in a suburb outside of the exlusion zone that's in place now, isn't it?

I'd add, given the evolution of this event, and the winds seeming to carry any low-hanging "fruit" back to the mainland of Japan... the zone established seems... arbitrary.

@OmCheeto: Expect a lot more ending in "shimasu and 'ita" and in a low tone, followed by resignations. Ex. "Onegaishimasu, oyurishi kudasai! Arigatou, gozaimagarbagea." (basically, pretty pretty please, please forgive me, thank you 'big time' *spirit of, not exact trans*)

Oh, and cheeto, don't pronounce those u's at the end... or at least, it's almost an unuttered vowel. Then again, you're not going to be the one in 'hyper-polite' mode...

 

[nismaratwork]

I usually spell the phrase as I hear it. To be truthful, that's pretty much all I know how to say in those 30 or so https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3045669&postcount=73". It's a silly hobby, but an excellent conversation starter when meeting people from different lands. Om cheeto means "I know nothing" in Cantonese.

But I have the feeling we are going to hear a lot of "Nanimo shiranai", from a few Japanese exec's in the next few months/years. Though I may be inappropriately projecting my own prejudices based on http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2010/oct/26/citigroup-exec-forgetful-on-witness-stand-in-nyc/" .

You'll hear this instead: "Taisetsu na minna, yurugarbagee onegaishimasu! Makemashimagarbagea Kame-Sama!"
"Pretty super please, all who know me, forgive me, I lose [in the formality of 'Go] god!" <--again, spirit of, not direct translation.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

More bad news:

French nuclear safety authority ASN upgrades the accident to second highest level

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=sv&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsvt.se%2F2.58360%2F1.2361292%2Futskriftsvanligt_format%3Fprinterfriendly%3Dtrue&act=url

State of the Fukushima nuclear power plant is now six on the seven-grade scale accidents, said French nuclear safety authority ASN.
A six on the INES scale would mean that the accident in Fukushima is the most serious nuclear accident since Chernobyl in 1986, which was set at level seven.
...
One reason why the Internet on Tuesday was full of statements and rumor, are that many people distrust the Japanese energy company Tepco which owns the stricken reactor. This was confirmed by the fact that the Japanese Prime Minister Naoto Kan on Tuesday, according to the Financial Times, went unannounced into a meeting with Tepco and requested information about what is really going on in the company's nuclear power plants.

A new M6.0 quake shook Tokyo over one minute.

Live streaming NHK World:
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv

 

[nismaratwork]

More bad news:

French nuclear safety authority ASN upgrades the accident to second highest level



A new M6.0 quake shook Tokyo over one minute.

Live streaming NHK World:
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/nhk-world-tv

Whoa... that is, culturally... HUGE. I can only compare that to the president walking into an open session of congress and challenging people on the floor.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

... Also, I can't help but point out to everyone else that this thread is a really, really bad time to be chatting about 'stress relief' and assorted other garbage.

Agree 100%, talk about guns at a moment like this makes me sick.

 

[dlgoff]

US utilities, especially with plants that have BWRs with Mk I containment, have already started review processes on their plant designs and emergency operating procedures, to ensure to the extent possible, that this event will not happen in the US.

I hope that this will help the US nuclear energy industry go forward.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

I hope that this will help the US nuclear energy industry go forward.

More info:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/12/japan-quake-nuclear-ge-idUSN1227232120110312"

 

[nismaratwork]

Wow... One person I've never heard of, and one I count a friend both made ill by comments of firearms in the context of (actual) stress relief when I thought a friend might be dead. Yeah, I can see why you'd be so disgusted.
I can honestly say that I'm completely unmovedl truly, anything short of either of you bursting into flames would leave me unmoved right now, and I'd only put out one of you.

On another note, dlgoff, I wouldn't count on it... the combination of this event with the hysteria in our media and anti-nuclear groups would seem to argue against that.
At this point the best we can hope is that this remains an industrial disaster above all, and not a wide-spread radiological disaster. I'd add, it's not as though Japan has tons of land to spare... a wide exlusion zone and sarcophagous is not exactly an ideal solution.

If I were in the coal/LNG lobby, I'd be flogging this already, behind the scenes at LEAST.
On that note, China and Japan are sending a rather large amount of LNG to shore up Japan's grid.

 

[Astronuc]

More info:

FACTBOX-U.S. nuclear plants similar to Japan plant in peril – Reuters

That's an exaggeration. That's not a factual statement as much as it is hyperbole.

I can appreciate the public's anger, anxiety and distress, but I don't appreciate silly statements or misrepresentations.

Perhaps they are in political peril, but not technical peril. Failure is not imminent.

 

[Borek]

I hope that this will help the US nuclear energy industry go forward.

No idea about US, but Germans are already using the event here as an argument against us (us Poles) building nuclear power plant. From http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/das-grosse-nachdenken/3950386.html:

The Polish plans to build two nuclear power plants by 2030, including one in Gdansk, trouble in Germany. "Nuclear power is no solution," said Berlin government spokesman Richard Meng. Although the plans for a site are directly on the German border from the table, but that was not enough: "One can only hope that the nuclear disaster in Japan leads to rethink. And this means that. Disembark in Germany and not go into Poland, "Brandenburg's Prime Minister Matthias Platzeck (SPD), the Atomic Energy designated always as irresponsible and as a dangerous risk technology, told the Tagesspiegel:" I hope that our Polish neighbors now come to conclusions which are contemporary."

(Sorry for a lousy translation, that's Google, not me).

 

[nismaratwork]

That's an exaggeration. That's not a factual statement as much as it is hyperbole.

I can appreciate the public's anger, anxiety and distress, but I don't appreciate silly statements or misrepresentations.

Perhaps they are in political peril, but not technical peril. Failure is not imminent.

I have to say, it's not the happiest thing in the world to see this hysteria leach into PF, where truly we should all know better. I can feel that... anxiety... however, and I think in your case knowledge is a vast cooling pool for that kind of experience.

Maybe someday people will get the message: it's not Nuclear or sunshine and wind... it's Nuclear or Coal/LNG. Hmmm.. coal mining and firing, fracking... or the very rare radiological event usually limited to old reactors that should have been serviced, replaced, or re-thought.

Maybe dying from asthma complications or other industrial pollutants is just so much fun that nobody wants to risk some of our vast and empty country on nuclear plants of new design and adequate storage?

Wait... I thought we were supposed to leave our 'other garbage' such as the politics of nuclear power at the door! Curses... foiled by the flow of conversation again.

 

[nismaratwork]

No idea about US, but Germans are already using the event here as an argument against us (us Poles) building nuclear power plant. From http://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/das-grosse-nachdenken/3950386.html:



(Sorry for a lousy translation, that's Google, not me).

GERMANY has the... um... has the testicular fortitude to argue that Poland should or shouldn't do ANYTHING?! I'd laugh, but it's too ridiculous to be funny, and too grim.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

That's an exaggeration. That's not a factual statement as much as it is hyperbole.

I can appreciate the public's anger, anxiety and distress, but I don't appreciate silly statements or misrepresentations.

Perhaps they are in political peril, but not technical peril. Failure is not imminent.

I don’t know if this is a 'translation issue'? But as I interpret this they mean the "Japan(ese) plant in peril" = Fukushima I

?

 

[dlgoff]

At this point the best we can hope is that this remains an industrial disaster above all, and not a wide-spread radiological disaster.

Failure is not imminent.

If Japan can get this thing under control, wouldn't that be a good for the industry? Too early maybe to even consider I guess.

 

[nismaratwork]

I don’t know if this is a 'translation issue'? But as I interpret this they mean the "Japan(ese) plant in peril" = Fukushima I

?

We're all in mortal peril of dying someday... that doesn't mean I should walk behind you saying, "You're going to die man!" Tone and presentation matter along with the conclusion...

Anyway, it's Fukishimi's Daichi that's probably the most worrisome at the moment.

 

[nismaratwork]

If Japan can get this thing under control, wouldn't that be a good for the industry? Too early maybe to even consider I guess.

I really don't know, that's definitely an Astronuc question only.

 

[Angry Citizen]

If Japan can get this thing under control, wouldn't that be a good for the industry? Too early maybe to even consider I guess.

I'm already fighting to quell pissed off anti-nuke nuts, so no, I think the damage has already been done. Remember, nuclear power has ATOMS, and is therefore going to kill us all.

 

[nismaratwork]

I'm already fighting to quell pissed off anti-nuke nuts, so no, I think the damage has already been done. Remember, nuclear power has ATOMS, and is therefore going to kill us all.

Why is it that STILL, when people hear, "nuclear power" you only see mushroom clouds in their eyes? Don't people bother to read anymore, to learn or have even the most BASIC critical eye!?

No... right, what am I thinking... let's shovel some more coal boys, nothing can go wrong there... not even radioactive isotopes... oh wait. :grumpy:

 

[jhae2.718]

There ought to be a required course for people that explains the science behind controversial subjects. Then, maybe, people won't go off spouting opinions born of ignorance as much.

People thinking "meltdown"=="thermonuclear explosion" really annoy me.

 

[Angry Citizen]

Worse is people thinking this is Chernobyl part deux. As far as I can tell, Chernobyl is actually impossible at this facility.

 

[nismaratwork]

There ought to be a required course for people that explains the science behind controversial subjects. Then, maybe, people won't go off spouting opinions born of ignorance as much.

People thinking "meltdown"=="thermonuclear explosion" really annoy me.

Yeah... it seems people don't grasp 'criticality indicent', 'radiation release', 'fire with fallout', and 'A FREAKING BOMB' as separate concepts.

It's... grrrrrrrrr...