Near Death Studies - Consciousness After Death

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Pardon me for interrupting. I will stay out of the discussion now.

Oh no, I didn't mean it like that, just pointing out the flaw in the analogy.

 

[moonstroller]

This can be a cultural phenomenon. New agers claim that the soul can travel astrally away from the body and see things very far away, or simply see the inanimate self body laying on a bed. The media has diffused it so much that hardly anybody has never heard of it. In a state of stress one can hallucinate and see things that are in his cultural unconscious.

I belonged to a group of people who investigate NDE. I admit, most descriptions of the "Heaven bound" event, including mine, tended to be towards the cultural. However, some descriptions by atheists inferred "God presence," which I thought odd.

In the Army, I met a person who could astral project at will (during sleep). He impressed me often by describing situations I'd been in, and listing details only an observer could know.

I'm a very skeptical person but I'm not sold on life ends with death.

 

[moonstroller]

How reliable is this information, has a study been done? I mean it's possible that the auditory area of the brain is feeding the brain with stimulus, even close to the point of death, and like we do in dreams it is constructing a visual record according to outside stimulus. In order to test this you'd have to see just how reliable these witness testimonies are, and whether the information could have been picked up pre-op or at the time of the NDE.

As detailed by Cel, there are those who are impressed enough to set up a test arrangement.

 

[moonstroller]

The one thing I always wondered is, when people die, leave the body, see other people they knew, jesus, or angels; do they see clothes on these people? When you see your grandma, do you see her face, just sense her presence, just here her voice? Some people claim seeing people wearing clothes and all. If this is the case, then I would say that what those people saw came from their own brain and its memory because a soul couldn't wear clothes.

In my experience, I wasn't aware of apparel. I wasn't aware of projecting voice; more a sense of understanding -suddenly, as opposed to linearly. I was in the presence of "something" and felt sub-dominated by it. At the same time, I felt all knowledgeable and understanding; that is, I needed no guidance to understand anything -unrestricted.

 

[moonstroller]

Not fearing death.

I attended a lecture by a guy doing research into this at Cambridge. He said he had managed to achieve the same in patients as NDE by using various tranquillisers. Pity it was about 10 years ago and I can't remember most of it. Suffice to say he speculated that this was nothing more than a state readily achievable given certain stimuli conditions or lack there of. Probably the fact that it relates to our images of death is some sort of coincidence, but I can see how not fearing death would be a comfort to people anyway.

Not fearing death is the greatest comfort derived from my experience. That is not to say I don't fear the "trauma" of death. I like to think that my experience freed me from any religious inflections about dying.

There was a medical experiment, in the 1700's I believe, where a condemned man was given the option of having his life terminated medically, by a doctor instead of the executioner. The doctor blindfolded the man and simulated the stimuli of cutting the wrist. Warm water allowed to flow on the wrist simulated the feeling of bleeding. The man died. The trauma leading to death was imagined by he condemned man.

 

[Evo]

I'm a very skeptical person but I'm not sold on life ends with death.

But none of the people that had these hallucinations are dead. No matter how close to death they were they are still alive. Our definition of death changes as medical technology advances.

 

[a2tha3]

Maybe when your "soul" leaves the body, you can see through the eyes of alive people. That would be cool. You could like see through everyones eyes at once.

By saying this you assume that the concept of a "soul" even exists. It can be argued that there are no souls in your body. I personally believe that the "soul" was derived from some religion, and gave people reasons to stay happy about the thought of death..

Of course religion can be created rather easily because the best way to persuade someone is to confuse them; and then convince them that you have a way out of their confused state.

But back to the topic--Consciousness after Death isn't possible scientifically...unless you are defining death as your heart stopping.. SO I guess I am saying that It is like 99% bogus. I don't know for sure, but I am pretty sure there are some exaggerations that happen when someone says they have had an "out of body experience" (mainly due to the fact that their brain probably created it)

 

[CEL]

I belonged to a group of people who investigate NDE. I admit, most descriptions of the "Heaven bound" event, including mine, tended to be towards the cultural. However, some descriptions by atheists inferred "God presence," which I thought odd.

Do you have some examples of atheists that sensed this God presence?

In the Army, I met a person who could astral project at will (during sleep). He impressed me often by describing situations I'd been in, and listing details only an observer could know.

He could be honestly deluded or a prankster. If he was a prankster no explanation is needed. If he was honestly deluded, he could be unconsciously remembering images he saw in movies or photos, or facts he read or heard about.
Remember the Bridey Murphy case, when a woman of Colorado in the mid twentieth century remembered under hypnosis a previous life as an Irish woman of 19th century.
Further investigation showed that what she remembered were facts of her childhood, when she lived across the street from an Irish woman named Bridie Murphey Corkell.
Of course there is a third hypothesis: he could really travel astrally.

I'm a very skeptical person but I'm not sold on life ends with death.

Your posts are not of a skeptical person.

 

[moonstroller]

Do you have some examples of atheists that sensed this God presence?

No. Not at this time.

He could be honestly deluded or a prankster. If he was a prankster no explanation is needed. If he was honestly deluded, he could be unconsciously remembering images he saw in movies or photos, or facts he read or heard about.
Remember the Bridey Murphy case, when a woman of Colorado in the mid twentieth century remembered under hypnosis a previous life as an Irish woman of 19th century.
Further investigation showed that what she remembered were facts of her childhood, when she lived across the street from an Irish woman named Bridie Murphey Corkell.
Of course there is a third hypothesis: he could really travel astrally.

I had my doubts.

Your posts are not of a skeptical person.

<snicker> perhaps I'm an open-minded skeptic. I suspect my own experience keeps my in this state.

 

[moonstroller]

That possibly the wave nature of a particle is the same (in a way) as the consciousness is of a human. I think that analogy was even made in one of the articles listed by the OP. I think the thought of a human having a soul is too often seen as having religious connotations, so not accepted as a posibility in the scientific world.

Life has one attribute that pure matter and energy does not, the power to alter its own course. I think it is this characteristic that causes us to contemplate why this phenomenon's occurs and from where it is derived.

We can accept that life is a mixture of energy and matter but we cannot agree on why life is able to influence its motion.

 

[moonstroller]

But none of the people that had these hallucinations are dead. No matter how close to death they were they are still alive. Our definition of death changes as medical technology advances.

This is true as long as death is a place that you can step into but not back from. There is no evidence to support this assumption. In most of the strong cases for NDE, the patient was declared medically dead.

 

[Evo]

This is true as long as death is a place that you can step into but not back from. There is no evidence to support this assumption. In most of the strong cases for NDE, the patient was declared medically dead.

"medically dead" is the catch here. They apparently were not dead to the point where they could not be revived. Like I said previously, as technology and our understanding increases, the definition of death changes.

 

[moonstroller]

But back to the topic--Consciousness after Death isn't possible scientifically...unless you are defining death as your heart stopping.. SO I guess I am saying that It is like 99% bogus. I don't know for sure, but I am pretty sure there are some exaggerations that happen when someone says they have had an "out of body experience" (mainly due to the fact that their brain probably created it)

There was a medical operation where they transplanted a monkeys head( including the brain) to another monkey's body. The operation was a success and the monkey appeared to have the "consciences" transplanted as well (Seen on the discovery channel). Such operations have since been declared as illegal.

I think this is a good argument that the consciences and brain are one and the same. It still does not answer the question of what is the force of consciences. It could rule out the heart as the seat of emotion :)

I suspect that the brain ( I am an amateur radio operator) may be nothing more than a receiver of sorts; if we suspect that there is a force present that can transmit to it. Then again, perhaps it is nothing more that a computer with a predefined algorithm embedded within. Who knows these things?
:)

 

[W3pcq]

NDE can be simulated with the use of stimuli and or drugs right. So what, if we do have souls, then why would it be impossible for our souls to cross over while still alive. An alternative explanation is that certain drugs/stimuli can open up pathways for the soul to leave the body. That is the way that native americans viewed it. I'm not saying that this is the case, but just that simulating a nde doesn't disprove the soul.

 

[W3pcq]

T

I think this is a good argument that the consciences and brain are one and the same. It still does not answer the question of what is the force of consciences. It could rule out the heart as the seat of emotion :)

:)

I don't think that rules out the idea that the consciences is just attached to the brain.

 

[moonstroller]

"medically dead" is the catch here. ...Like I said previously, as technology and our understanding increases, the definition of death changes.

the Uniform Determination of Death Act. It states that: "An individual who has sustained either (1) irreversible cessation of circulatory and respiratory functions, or (2) irreversible cessation of all functions of the entire brain, including the brain stem is dead.

Under laboratory conditions at normal body temperature, the longest period of clinical death (complete circulatory arrest) survived with eventual return of brain function is one hour.[18][19]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinical_death

Because brain death is the final call on death, and animal heads have been successfully transplanted from one animal to another I would have to agree with you. Perhaps in the future, there will be no real determination of death as long as the brain can survive.

I guess the real question we are all looking to be answered is:
Is life merely an algorithm? or some sort of signal receiver or a combination of both?. By receiver I mean is the brain controlled by a signal sent to it.

The only actual NDE I have been witness to other than my own, involved a woman who was dying from sclerosis of the liver. She was an alcoholic and over 50 years old. She had a dream/vision/NDE while she lay on the death watch in the hospital. She claimed that Jesus told her it was not her time and she needed to help her family who were all alcoholics. {shortened story} she recovered, had a completely healed liver and live for another 15 years.

I'm not a Christian but I was impressed.

Those who did not sit down with Columbus and notice the sails disappearing over the horizon, had no reason to doubt the world was flat. It mattered little to their day to day lives, one way or the other.

I've seen too many peculiar things in life to close off my mind to a narrow minded way of thinking, be it religious or scientific. I will die on day and solve the riddle for myself as will we all. Until then, I remain open minded to any speculation. For the curious minded it is all food for thoughtful fun anyway.

 

[moonstroller]

I don't think that rules out the idea that the consciences is just attached to the brain.

Attached in what way?

 

[W3pcq]

Attached in what way?

Like if we do have souls that can leave the body, they could be attached to our minds, but when we die, our souls are released from the grip of the mind.

 

[moonstroller]

Kinda like the hand and glove thing. The body, including the brain is the glove and the hand is the soul.

I notice in most of these types of conversations, that one point that limits discussion is the possibility of eternity, which is itself hard to define. Given that all reality is immersed in a fabric of eternity, then all possible outcomes of any event can actually happen. I recently saw the video "Next" with Nicolas Cage and it was a breath of fresh air for the real SF fan.

I wonder sometimes about dreams. What if: you died in this life and awoke in another life thinking that the former life was nothing more than a dream. In essence, you would live forever. This could be possible, if every decision you make takes you along a separate path within eternity and every possible decision you could have taken would take you along a different path. All these paths could co-exist in eternity. It is a form of multiple existence, which eternity could contain with no problem at all.

Weird huh?

 

[Noone]

If a person has a near death Exp De-bunked

If someone has a near death exp they think they do but they don't mainly because there not dead there brain is still alive but has cut off the normal functions of the eyes and the perception of light so there for without light coming into your brain, you can no longer feel time hence you would be un-conscious but not dead so people that say that they seen somthing while having a near death exp just had a dream made up by there mind when they were no longer taking in light from there eyes hence, we see with our minds and are eyes just take in the light our brain makes the image's we see from that light so if people had a near death exp it is completely de-bunked here and now that if they seen somthing that would mean there brain was still alive so therefor they would be still alive they would just think that they had died and came back... its a matter of perception from the beholder of the memory but my perception of the matter is true and is not a miss-conception that is deluted by the lack of understanding or a false judgement on the matter. your welcome for DE-BUNKING this crazy wacked out theory of peoples near death exp's and the thought about what's after death. for what's after death we cannot prove nor dis-prove so it doesn't matter for those that are living just do onto others as you want done onto your self, get food, water air, shelter , entertainment and someone for you to love and live while you can and stop thinking about things that can be dis-proven by other proven information. This is a statement from Noone aka Nne

 

[Noone]

without the brain your not abale to take make images from the light from your eyes and process information of any other kind so consciencs is the brain and you are your brain there isn't any other you. your flesh makes the thoughts that you think even if they are not true. you just think your thoughts are true due to the fact that you have made your own judgement by using your understanding of the concept your talking about. please don't post such fruitless things there not needed and I am sure that it didnt make you happy or passed the time or got you food or money so if it didnt do any of these things for you why do you do such? is it that you don't know? if so that would be the part of your dna that knows..

 

[Noone]

Physics needs logical and reasonal pruff and your theory about enterneity or anything of the matter isn't proven or will be so please once again see post number 2

-.-'

 

[moonstroller]

I have to say, I disagree with some of what you said and agree with some of it but I'm not sure what you said. Could you condense it a bit?
Nonoe wrote: "...stop thinking about things that can be dis-proven by other proven information."

Also, could you direct me to the "dis-proven" information?

 

[moonstroller]

Physics needs logical and reasonal pruff and your theory about enterneity or anything of the matter isn't proven or will be so please once again see post number 2

-.-'

No. I'm not going to look at post number 2. Thank you anyway.

 

[moonstroller]

Physics needs logical and reasonal pruff and your theory about enterneity or anything of the matter isn't proven or will be so...2
-.-'

So could you tell me, using scientific evidence; and not so many words, where the end of the universe/reality is; and, where is begins?

 

[Pythagorean]

Just out of curiosity, do you guys believe quantum mechanics? That matter has particle and wave properties?

my understanding is:

QM doesn't really say that. Physicists describe it that way qualitatively, but particles behave like particles. The only reasons terms like 'particle' and 'wave' came in is because a) people were surprised that light can knock electrons around and b) the wave equation is used to express the motion of particles.

One could argue that matter is just wave-like, and there's no such thing as 'particles' (i.e. hard pellets) on the quantum level.

 

[FadeToBlack]

I don't think that rules out the idea that the consciences is just attached to the brain.

Consciousness effects the brain and vice-versa. Though some people believe that consciousness is separate from the brain, but this cannot be the truth. Consciousness does depend on the brain, but the brain doesn't seem to depend on consciousness to function. So in other words, the brain is a necessary condition for the mind (or 'consciousness') to exist, but not a sufficient condition. You don't 'only' need the brain for consciousness to exist. It seems to be interconnected but at the same time seperate. I don't know if we will ever know.

Also, the bit about DMT naturally occurring in the brain is interesting too. For all we know, that could be the source of our NDE. It could all be a hallucination/illusion.

There are a lot of theories out there, but there aren't many concrete answers.

 

[thomasxc]

Conclusion: It ain't heaven if you can't see grandma naked?

Why would you even see bodies? Why would you see? Even if we assume that the mind somehow exists beyond the brain and after death, anything that you experience would by definition all be in your mind.

i agree. it would all be in your head.../

 

[thomasxc]

but either way, its pretty fascinating...

 

[Moneer81]

Hello,

Time to get this thread going again...I am not sure how relevant what I'm about to say is, but here are my two cents

A couple of years ago I got very interested in astral projection (also known as astral travel.) First I was obviously skeptical, but I did a bunch of research and decided to try it. I followed some techniques and excercises that are to be done as you're falling asleep. To make a long story short, I was able to experience some really bizarre phenomena and on multiple occasions, I was able to "leave my body". My experiences were brief and I didn't meet any "beings" or anything of that sort. I also tried lucid dreaming, which basically training your mind to be conscious while dreaming. That was no easy task. Anyways, I truly think that there exists some kind of energy, call it soul, and that there is more to existence than the four-dimensional universe that we know of. At this point, I can't really concoct a theory or explanation for all of this, but I feel there is so much more that we don't understand or can't understand. I am an atheist by definition, but I think existence is much more complicated than we know so far. A good book I read about out of body experiences is Adventures Beyond the Body: How to Experience Out-of-Body Travel by William Buhlman. That book actually has a good amount of physics in it, but I'll let you judge if the author's reference to physics theories is bogus or not.

 

[Moneer81]

There was a medical operation where they transplanted a monkeys head( including the brain) to another monkey's body. The operation was a success and the monkey appeared to have the "consciences" transplanted as well (Seen on the discovery channel). Such operations have since been declared as illegal.

I think this is a good argument that the consciences and brain are one and the same. It still does not answer the question of what is the force of consciences. It could rule out the heart as the seat of emotion :)

I suspect that the brain ( I am an amateur radio operator) may be nothing more than a receiver of sorts; if we suspect that there is a force present that can transmit to it. Then again, perhaps it is nothing more that a computer with a predefined algorithm embedded within. Who knows these things?
:)

Sounds like someone has been watching the new x-files movie...

 

[Almindor]

I think that while we cannot easily prove that NDE "symptoms" are caused by the dieing brain and it's "last attempts", it's pretty logical however. (the problem is, we can't force NDE on humans safely, and doing it by safe drugs cannot be considered 100% the same thing for the sake of finding out how it works, because then it might not be NDE we're looking at, at least if my understanding of scientific experimentation is right).

I'll put the question in another, inverted, way:

Apologies up front for this analogy, but I'm an IT student :)

If the body (including the brain of course, all the physical parts) is the hardware, and the mind (that is the current state, memory etc.) is the software then I think it's pretty clear that if you destroy the processor, RAM etc. (brain) or the power lines (heart etc.) you "stop being".

Our consciousness is just like a software program which is running all the time.

A software program "is" only as long as it runs. With the exception of backups to non-active media (hard disk etc., by non-active I mean media not requiring power to remember data), the program ceases to exist if:

a) it's removed from execution (in our usual case the process is killed and it's memory is wiped from RAM).

b) we destroy the computer and hard-disk with it, and there's no other copy

Now, as far as I know, living beings cannot be "stored to disk and shut down" per-se, except perhaps arguably deep coma and hybernation kind of thing.

Now the question: is there anything to contradict this view on "consciousness"? Anything to suggest that our "consciousness" is more than a "software program" running on a computer called "the body"?

So basically I'm asking for a contradiction for this hypothesis.

P.S.: I guess in the end it's a bit OT, if you feel strongly about it I can post a new thread instead...

 

[gareth]

this is more of an 'artificial intelligence' question really.

If a computer can not replicate a real living organism in it's entirety then no comparisons or analogies can be made by replacing humans as machines.

Sure if we had the technology we could make a robot that looks and acts just like us, but everything it does we have told it to do in some discrete way.

Would these robots have NDE's?

I doubt it.

 

[Almindor]

this is more of an 'artificial intelligence' question really.

If a computer can not replicate a real living organism in it's entirety then no comparisons or analogies can be made by replacing humans as machines.

Sure if we had the technology we could make a robot that looks and acts just like us, but everything it does we have told it to do in some discrete way.

Would these robots have NDE's?

I doubt it.

Well not really. What I meant to ask was whether there's any evidence contradicting the hypothesis that human consciousness (or soul if you wish) is just a "software program" running in the brain. I probably over-complicated the question tho :)

Yes, the computer has differences in HW which make it harder to compare (like hard disk and no need for stable power income) but that'd be another discussion. And I also doubt that robots would have NDE even if they had consciousness, but not for the lack of soul, but rather the lack of certain chemicals and their effects :)

Btw. so was the monkey head swap experiment done or is it bogus? I'd be very interested in the results...

 

[LightbulbSun]

I do remember back in college, in psych we talked about being able to electrically stimulate a part of the brain to create the "light at the end of the tunnel" syndrome. But I think there is much more to be learned than that experiment alone.

I don't mean to be harsh, but are you choosing to dismiss actual evidence because you personally want to think there's more to it than that?