Optical analog to digital converter

In summary: I design my own A/Ds. In summary, the idea behind an "optical" A/D is to use optics to accomplish the analog to digital conversion. The input and output are electronic. This design is quite simple and should be quite fast. However, the speed of an individual conversion is not usually of much importance.
  • #1
dlgoff
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I designed an optical A/D (on paper only) several years ago. I have no means to make one since small scale integration is required. Any ideas how to get someone interested?

If it works correctly, there would be zero conversion time and only settling time for the detectors outputs.
 
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  • #2
Can you explain a bit more about what an "optical" A/D would do?

- Warren
 
  • #3
Can you explain a bit more about what an "optical" A/D would do?
There is a analog input that is totally isolated from a light source and a number of detectors. The detectors outputs are a digital representation of the analog input. The output code is developed during a pulse from the source.
 
  • #4
What is the source of the analog input? What type of analog information would you be sampling? How do you invision your A/D converter being used?
 
  • #5
What is the source of the analog input?
That would be what ever you are wanting to measure. The sensivity of the input would depend on the material which is being "probed" by the light source. Maybe in the range of 0 to 10 VDC.
How do you invision your A/D converter being used?
Like any other A/D integrated circuit. But intead of providing a convert input and waiting for the conversion time period, you have a pulse input which should give the digital output much quicker.
 
  • #6
Originally posted by dlgoff
That would be what ever you are wanting to measure. The sensivity of the input would depend on the material which is being "probed" by the light source. Maybe in the range of 0 to 10 VDC.
I'm confused. If this is an optical A/D, why are you measuring the input in volts?
Like any other A/D integrated circuit. But intead of providing a convert input and waiting for the conversion time period, you have a pulse input which should give the digital output much quicker.
I have to ask -- do you know how existing A/D converters work?

- Warrem
 
  • #7
I'm confused. If this is an optical A/D, why are you measuring the input in volts?
It uses optics to accomplish the analog to digital conversion. The input and output are electronic. So I guess it's really electro-optical.
I have to ask -- do you know how existing A/D converters work?
Yes I do in general. Most, I think use fast successive approximation conversion. You'll find other inputs on the chips for voltage references, chip enable, etc.

The thing with this idea is that you can get a fast 12,14,16,... bit A/D at a very low cost compared to good electronic chips.
 
  • #8
Very few commercial A/Ds are SARs. The reason? SARs are necessarily slow. There are no "fast SARs."

- Warren
 
  • #9
Very few commercial A/Ds are SARs. The reason? SARs are necessarily slow. There are no "fast SARs."
This is true. For fast A/Ds, flash conversion is needed. These are the expensive ones. The idea I came up with should be much faster than these. You sample the outputs as fast as you can pulse the integrated light source.
 
  • #10
Well, I still don't see how this is possible, but I'd like to see what you've come up with. I'm an applications engineer with National Semiconductor Corporation, Inc. I specialize in analog to digital converters.

I will have you know that virtually all "high-speed" (> 1 MSPS) ADCs are actually folded-flash architecture, or "multi-step flash." Only the low-speed industrial products are SARs.

I'll also tell you that the speed of an individual conversion is frankly not usually of much importance. Most modern ADCs are pipelined. For a chip with an 8-cycle pipeline latency, it means that a conversion takes 8 clock cycles. The data coming out of the digital pins was sampled eight clock cycles ago. Only in very rare instances does this pipeline delay cause any problems for a designer.

The biggest concerns for most designers are power consumption, footprint, and dynamic performance.

- Warren
 
  • #11
Well, I still don't see how this is possible, but I'd like to see what you've come up with. I'm an applications engineer with National Semiconductor Corporation, Inc. I specialize in analog to digital converters.
Shoot. Your the right person to be talking to. I can try to explain it here. The design is quite simple.
I'll also tell you that the speed of an individual conversion is frankly not usually of much importance. Most modern ADCs are pipelined. For a chip with an 8-cycle pipeline latency, it means that a conversion takes 8 clock cycles. The data coming out of the digital pins was sampled eight clock cycles ago. Only in very rare instances does this pipeline delay cause any problems for a designer.
I'm not familure with this way of clocking since it was several years ago that I was more up on existing A/Ds. Anyway it seems to me that speed would always be important for realtime processing.
The biggest concerns for most designers are power consumption, footprint, and dynamic performance.
Well this one should do the trick since we're only talking about a single source (LED) and detectors for the bits (photodiodes). The input has very high impedence so no power there. It can be put into an inline package. As to dynamic performance; I need one to test.
 
  • #12
If you're using LEDs and photodectors, I can only assume you're using an array of photodetectors, each with a different voltage offset, and producing a so-called "thermometer-code" output. In other words, for any given input, some of the low-offset detectors will be turned on, up to a critical point. Past it, all the detectors will be turned off.

You'd then have to do a "thermometer-code" to binary conversion.

- Warren
 
  • #13
If you're using LEDs and photodectors, I can only assume you're using an array of photodetectors, each with a different voltage offset, and producing a so-called "thermometer-code" output. In other words, for any given input, some of the low-offset detectors will be turned on, up to a critical point. Past it, all the detectors will be turned off.
One LED and an array of photodetectors (I mentioned photodiodes but phototransistors is what I meant. However diodes could be used I think) but not producing any thermometer codes.

The LED source and photodetectors are integrated into the surface of a GaAs (or other electrooptical crystal materials) substrate. They are arranged such that the LED output is through the substrate out into the "analog input part of the circuit" then back through the substrate to the photodetectors.

Can you visualize this so far?
 
  • #14
Through the substrate?

Out into the analog part of the circuit?

No, sorry, you're not making any sense.

- Warren
 
  • #15
No, sorry, you're not making any sense.

Okay. Let me try it this way. This device is made in layers parallel to the substrate. Normally an LED would emit its light off the chip but in this case I want it to go through the substrate and encounter the polished interface which has a three layer film on it.

This film consist of a mirror(Al deposit) with an etched pattern that allows a circular ring of light to be transmitted through to the next layer where it will encounter another mirror. The material between the mirrors is electroactive. After multipul reflections, the light will exit through the etched pattern to the photodetectors. The location of these detectors is critical to the code (digital output).

Now apply a potential difference between the mirrors. This will change the index of refraction of the electoractive material between them causing the rings of reflection (perhaps 100s) on the etched mirror to move directly proportional to the applied potential.

Make any since now?

eddit:"...move directly proportional to the applied potential." Actually the index of refraction is proportional to the square of the field. But the angle of refraction is directly proportional to the index of refraction.
 
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  • #16
Uh... and you think this is simpler than a comparator? LOL...

- Warren
 
  • #17
Uh... and you think this is simpler than a comparator? LOL...
How many comparators do you need for say a 16 bit one. I'm sure the IC is very complex with many transistors (causing more heat with speed as one disadvantage). Here all you have are a few transistors, a diode and a three step film disposition (deposit aluminum, etch pattern, deposit active film, deposit aluminum and your done).

How much does a 16 bit A/D cost now days?
 
  • #18
I'm sorry, what you're proposing is one of the most complicated pieces of electro-optical machinery ever concieved. There is absolutely no chance of anyone attempting to build anything like this.

Besides, I think a lot of this idea rests on technology that doesn't yet exist -- "electroactive substances" with variable indices of refraction?

Not a chance, man. Sorry.

- Warren
 
  • #19
I'm sorry, what you're proposing is one of the most complicated pieces of electro-optical machinery ever concieved. There is absolutely no chance of anyone attempting to build anything like this.
What's so complicated about it? They make ICs all the time. Do you mean that it would be hard to make an LED transmit light through the substrate? I don't see a problem here. Deposition the thin films. Still no problem.
Besides, I think a lot of this idea rests on technology that doesn't yet exist -- "electroactive substances" with variable indices of refraction?
There's lots of existing materials that can do this. Have you ever heard of the Kerr effect? Any optically isotropic substance can become doubly refracting. Even glass to some extent; however it take a high voltage to see the effect. There are polymers that have been designed that are very sensivity to an electric field. i.e. it has a large Kerr constant.

added by edit: Anyone else care to comment?
 
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  • #20
a picture's worth 1000 words

Here's a simple section drawing of the A/D concept. From a top view, the emitters mirror slit is almost a complete circle with the detector mirror slits spiraling out from its center.

When an input potential is applied to the mirrors, an electric field is created across the dielectric causing the index of refraction (parallel to the field) to increase. This will make the angle of refraction of the light going from the substrate to the dielectric decrease.

The rings of light between the mirrors will "shrink" and move across the detector slits as the potential is increased.

Any thoughts?
 

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  • #21
Do I understand correctly that you need 1 detector per each analog value? That would mean 16 million detectors for 24-bit AD.
How do you mean to deal with unwanted interference and difraction?

Generally, as I understand, complex with ADs is to achieve precision. For 24-bit AD lowest value and highest value differs 16 million times, that's 7 orders of magnitude. So imperfection of scale 1/16E6 at any place means crap. Even 1/65K precision is problem at microchip scales.
And if you need to cascade several ADs, then why not do that with 1-bit ADs, or comparators?
 
  • #22
By the way, Electro-Optical junctions are slow - I think they're in the integer microsecond range, so if you want to get 1 Megasample or more (CD audio is 44.5 Mhz or so) then Electro-Optical is not really viable.
 
  • #23
by wimms
Do I understand correctly that you need 1 detector per each analog value? That would mean 16 million detectors for 24-bit AD.
No. For a 24-bit AD you need 24 detectors.(arranged in a spiral fasion with the least significant bit being the furtherest from the center. i.e for the dielectric having an index greater than the substrate in this case.
by wimms
How do you mean to deal with unwanted interference and difraction?
Well I think if the openings (slits) are large enough there shouldn't be any problem. Since I'm not considering using a coherent source (laser) this will decrease inteference.
by NateTG
By the way, Electro-Optical junctions are slow - I think they're in the integer microsecond range, so if you want to get 1 Megasample or more (CD audio is 44.5 Mhz or so) then Electro-Optical is not really viable.
Yes this would be a problem. But since all detectors will be read at the same time during the source pulsing, there is really only one delay to consider. i.e. the total settling time. Don't CD players use electro-optical devices now?
 
  • #24
Originally posted by NateTG
By the way, Electro-Optical junctions are slow - I think they're in the integer microsecond range, so if you want to get 1 Megasample or more (CD audio is 44.5 Mhz or so) then Electro-Optical is not really viable.

You are way, way off. Hundreds of gigahertz is the state of the art, with terrahertz switching the current goal. We were able to obtain 2 ps switching in my lab, but the pulses are very energetic.

Njorl
 
  • #25
Originally posted by NateTG
(CD audio is 44.5 Mhz or so)
Oh, and CD audio is 44 KILOhertz. Audio applications are "low speed" by just about any standard.

- Warren
 
  • #26
Originally posted by dlgoff
No. For a 24-bit AD you need 24 detectors.(arranged in a spiral fasion with the least significant bit being the furtherest from the center. i.e for the dielectric having an index greater than the substrate in this case.
Then I don't grasp how do you produce binary code by 24 detectors that represents 16 million possible values. At which point does substraction and residue amplification happen? You can't produce binary code by proportioning alone. "Arranged in spiral" doesn't hit the light for me, but I'm curious.

Well I think if the openings (slits) are large enough there shouldn't be any problem. Since I'm not considering using a coherent source (laser) this will decrease inteference.
How large is enough? There is a need to illuminate detectors in precise pattern, and have no "dead-spots" between readings, as well as no garbage-spots. Thus detectors must be closely spaced, and you have issue with either false concurrent detection or transient where no detection happens. Difraction makes this worse, and it happens quite easily.
 
  • #27
Originally posted by Njorl
You are way, way off. Hundreds of gigahertz is the state of the art, with terrahertz switching the current goal. We were able to obtain 2 ps switching in my lab, but the pulses are very energetic.

Yipes.
 
  • #28
Use InGaAs/InAlAs detectors and source lattice matched to an InP substrate. GaAs-AlGaAs systems will cause the substrate to be opaque. Make your non-linear material lithium niobate. Work with 1.3-1.55 micron light.

The architecture is not that complicated. The problem is thermal instability. The output wavelength of the source will depend on temperature in a hypercritical manner. You can probably look-up the thermal properties of relevant materials, and calculate your optical path-length to see what kind of temperature sensitivity you have. I have made a lot of devices relying on resonances, and they are very temperature sensitive.

Vertical emitters have notoriously touchy output modes, but they are a very active research area and are improving all the time.

You could make it much simpler by using a rib waveguide laser source, monolithically integrated to a multimode interference splitter. Each output of the splitter would be a bit. Each output rib would have an electrically contacted length capped with distributed bragg reflectors (DBR's) at each end. The lengths of these regions would differ by factors of two, progressively. As the bias is increased, the outputs go through resonances at different rates, differing by factors of two.

Njorl
 
  • #29
Originally posted by wimms
Then I don't grasp how do you produce binary code by 24 detectors that represents 16 million possible values. At which point does substraction and residue amplification happen? You can't produce binary code by proportioning alone. "Arranged in spiral" doesn't hit the light for me, but I'm curious.

I think that the idea is to have some sort of mechanical modulus effect take place. This A/D isn't my idea, but consider the following possibility:

Let's say we have two parralel mirrors, one of which is fixed, and the other can be moved to change the gap between them. If you make the gap between the mirrors equal to 1/V (where v is the potential) and then you shoot light in one end at a fixed angle, and detect which direction the light is going in when it comes out.

The number of bounces is inversely proportional to the width of the gap, and the direction that the light comes out in is determined by the pairity of the number of bounces. That means that for a linear variation in voltage there will be equal segments for each side (with some hysterisis at the junctions). By varying the angle, one can vary the constant of proportionality s.t. it should be possible to get each bit individually without doing other comparisons.

This particular device is probably not suitable to use as an A/D but it does provide a theoretically simple model.
 
  • #30
Originally posted by Njorl
Use InGaAs/InAlAs detectors and source lattice matched to an InP substrate. GaAs-AlGaAs systems will cause the substrate to be opaque. Make your non-linear material lithium niobate. Work with 1.3-1.55 micron light.

The architecture is not that complicated. The problem is thermal instability. The output wavelength of the source will depend on temperature in a hypercritical manner. You can probably look-up the thermal properties of relevant materials, and calculate your optical path-length to see what kind of temperature sensitivity you have. I have made a lot of devices relying on resonances, and they are very temperature sensitive.

Vertical emitters have notoriously touchy output modes, but they are a very active research area and are improving all the time.

You could make it much simpler by using a rib waveguide laser source, monolithically integrated to a multimode interference splitter. Each output of the splitter would be a bit. Each output rib would have an electrically contacted length capped with distributed bragg reflectors (DBR's) at each end. The lengths of these regions would differ by factors of two, progressively. As the bias is increased, the outputs go through resonances at different rates, differing by factors of two.

Njorl
Yes. The higher the light source frequency the better. Can InGaAs/InAlAs detectors be integrated in an InP substrate?

Maybe some sort of temperature monitoring could be employed to bias the mirror to compensate? Wouldn't want to make it too expensive though.

Have you ever made a rib waveguide laser source, monolithically integrated to a multimode interference splitter? Sounds interesting.

Do you think the this idea is worth pursuing?

Thank you much for the info.
 
  • #31
by NateTG
By varying the angle, one can vary the constant of proportionality s.t. it should be possible to get each bit individually without doing other comparisons.
My first idea was to use a wedge between the mirrors. But I think that would be to difficult to fabricate.
This particular device is probably not suitable to use as an A/D but it does provide a theoretically simple model.
Do you see any other applications for something like this?
 
  • #32
by wimms
Then I don't grasp how do you produce binary code by 24 detectors that represents 16 million possible values. At which point does substraction and residue amplification happen? You can't produce binary code by proportioning alone. "Arranged in spiral" doesn't hit the light for me, but I'm curious.
Cut the angle of refraction in half and you get twice as many reflections and so on. The placement along the spiral should be such that the furthest detector will have twice as many reflections passing over it as the next closer one and so on. The inner most on will be off over the whole range of input voltages until all other bits are on. The placement is very critical.
by wimms
How large is enough? There is a need to illuminate detectors in precise pattern, and have no "dead-spots" between readings, as well as no garbage-spots. Thus detectors must be closely spaced, and you have issue with either false concurrent detection or transient where no detection happens. Difraction makes this worse, and it happens quite easily.
Larger than many wavelengths. Very precise pattern. Not close around the spiral but the distance to the center circle may overlap a little. There may be a little light but still be in a zero/off state.
 
  • #33
Originally posted by dlgoff
Yes. The higher the light source frequency the better. Can InGaAs/InAlAs detectors be integrated in an InP substrate?

Maybe some sort of temperature monitoring could be employed to bias the mirror to compensate? Wouldn't want to make it too expensive though.

Have you ever made a rib waveguide laser source, monolithically integrated to a multimode interference splitter? Sounds interesting.

Do you think the this idea is worth pursuing?

Thank you much for the info.

Yes, the alloy ratios to lattice match to InP are well known - 48%In for one, 53%In for the other, but I forget which is which.

Temperature monitoring and compensation is going to be uneconomical. Heat sinking would be the way to go. If heat sinking can't handle it, it probably is a no-go.

I have made a rib waveguide laser monolithically integrated to other devices, integrating one with the splitter mentioned should not be hard. The optical absorption in the material can't be too high, so making the laser with a quantum well, and destroying the well in all other regions would be the way to go. Using regrowth to make a non-absorbing spliter would be better, but getting regrowth to work well is hard.

Is the idea worthwhile? I don't know. Some of the other comments suggest problems. My suggestion would probably have "dead spots". It might do fine for exact resonances, but shut off completely in between - IE, the 1,2 4 and 8 work just fine, but at 2.5 there is no output. This might be alleviated with a broadened source, but that would make the splitter function poorly. You could also make the DBRs "sloppy", but then you'd have to threshold the throughput, and thresholding optical signals can slow things down if you have low optical power. If you're splitting the signal in 24, your power will be low. The only way to know if it is worthwhile is to estimate the numbers and compare best and worst case scenarios to existing electronic devices. That, I will not do. Not unless you pay me $350/hr.

Njorl

Njorl
 
  • #34
Slightly OT:

Njorl - are semiconductor lasers suitable for amplifying existing light signals?
 
  • #35
Njorl,

Thank you for explaining the ups and downs.
It might do fine for exact resonances...
Couldn't it be done with a large enough scale where resonance doesn't come into play? i.e. just reflections and not "standing waves"? Am I missing something here?
The only way to know if it is worthwhile is to estimate the numbers and compare best and worst case scenarios to existing electronic devices. That, I will not do. Not unless you pay me $350/hr.
Wish I could but I'll have to respectfully decline the offer.

Sincerely
 

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