Indiana Jones and nuking the fridge survival

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In summary, George Lucas put together a dossier of information to prove that a lead-lined refrigerator could protect an Indy from a nuclear blast. However, scientists believe the odds of survival are only 50/50.
  • #1
mauricem
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I know it's just a movie, but I had a question about "Indiana jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull." I'm writing a blog post and infographic about the scene where he hides in a refridgerator to protect him from a nuclear blast. I was hoping for some help from physics experts instead of making stuff up.

Here's the scene on YouTube if you haven't seen it.

The scene is ridiculous, but Lucas recently said there's a 50/50 chance of survival.

In fact, it was Spielberg who “didn’t believe” the scene. In response to Spielberg’s fears, Lucas put together a whole nuking-the-fridge dossier. It was about six inches thick, he indicated with his hands. Lucas said that if the refrigerator were lead-lined, and if Indy didn’t break his neck when the fridge crashed to earth, and if he were able to get the door open, he could, in fact, survive. “The odds of surviving that refrigerator — from a lot of scientists — are about 50-50,” Lucas said. - /Film


I compiled a bunch of data from various websites and some of them conflict or don't answer enough questions to be useful. I compiled it into a rough spreadsheet here.

Assuming he found a commercial lead-lined fridge (which didn't exist) and the fridge was hermetically sealled (impossible) and he was able to maintian a safe crash position in it here's my question.

What would I need to calculate his survival rate? I really appreciate any help that you can provide.

Here are some of my references
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada_National_Security_Site
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_56_(nuclear_test [Broken])
http://howto.wired.com/wiki/Survive_a_Nuclear_Blast
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Science/Nuke.html
http://m.wikihow.com/Survive-a-Nuclear-Attack
http://www.bt.cdc.gov/radiation/nuclearfaq.asp [Broken]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_nuclear_explosions
http://www.slashfilm.com/george-lucas-insists-nuke-fridge-survive/
http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq5.html
http://www.nationalterroralert.com/nuclear/
http://www.atomicarchive.com/Effects/index.shtml
 
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  • #2
keep in mind that the only thing George Lucas ever hears these days is "yes, it's possible".
 
  • #3
I'm assuming that you are in this forum because you want to know about the likeliness that radiation would kill him. Death by acute radiation poisoning requires quite a bit of radiation. Most of those who do die of "acute' radiation doses live for around a week and become weak/sick slowly over that time. To die from radiation within minutes you need much more radiation than would kill you over a week. Based on the movie I will assume that he got so little radiation he didn't even get sick from it.

A fridge would shield you from alpha and most beta. If it were lead lined it would shield you from pretty much all alpha, beta and low energy gamma. Some of the high energy gamma would still get through.

Now the highly scientific way of doing this would be to get a radiation spectrum from a nuclear blast and then use software to calculate how much of that would make it through lead box with 1 cm lead. I think this might be a bit beyond the scope of your blog.

You might just want to look at the radiation dose from gamma at a certain distance and then assume that some percentage of that is blocked. Then look at the survival rates for someone who absorbed that much radiation.
 
  • #4
And what about surviving the thermal blast? Granted, a refrigerator should be well isolated. But well enough to shield against a kiloton-range blast only a few hundred meters away? Um, no... I don't think so. :rolleyes:
 
  • #5
The most ridiculous part of the scene isn't hiding in a lead-lined fridge. Without doing any direct calculations it seems likely to me that the "lead-lined fridge" might make the blast a survivable event from a prompt radiation standpoint (not including his fallout exposure after he gets out of it). We don't get a very accurate estimate of his distance, but it seems that he was far enough from the device itself to reduce the prompt gamma/neutron blast to survivable levels since he's shielded. Alphas and betas would easily be blocked by the fridge if it was truly lead-lined with a significant amount, and let's not forget he was behind walls and a significant portion of atmosphere. Neutrons would pass right through lead "lining," and high energy gammas need a significant thickness to be stopped (multiple inches which it didn't have). The biggest thing he had going for him is the distance from the device and the radiation going into 4-pi.

The really ridiculous part is him being thrown miles by the blast, falling hundreds of feet, and surviving inside the fridge. It's ridiculous first because there's no way he could survive the fall (or acceleration necessary to throw him that far), but second because that fridge had to be one of the heaviest and densest objects in that house if it was truly lead-lined, and yet it's the thing that got thrown the farthest out of the entire house. If anything, it would have tipped over but stayed mostly in-place, and Indy would have rolled out right into the fallout zone.

Such a disappointment of a movie... if only they had consulted me when they were writing the script.
 
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  • #6
The walls of fridges are usually lined with some inexpensive insulating material such as rock wool. If I remember my old CD lessons correctly, it would take at least several feet of this material to cut the radiation dose in half. The particle impact however is probably worsened, because the secondary emissions from the walls of the fridge would much outweight the shielding benefit.
Apart from that, the freezer box would bust his fool neck as the fridge bounces around the landscape.
In short, the movie is as truthful and realistic as you would expect from Hollywood.
 
  • #7
etudiant said:
The walls of fridges are usually lined with some inexpensive insulating material such as rock wool.

In the scene, when Indy gets in the fridge we are given a glimpse of a placard which says "lead lined" on the fridge. The implication is this fridge is in the house as a product test for protecting the food within it against prompt radiation from a nuclear blast; of course who cares if your house is vaporized in the blast? No spec is given for the lead thickness, but given the presented circumstances Indy is most likely to die from bouncing around in the fridge rather than a radiation dose I think.
 
  • #8
I concur with Mech Engineer.

I did not find it entirely implausible that he survived the radiation. (It was lead-lined. He did get scrubbed down.)

I did find it entirely implausible that he could have survived the fling and impact.
 
  • #9
As far as it goes, the Atomic test Marines were at about 100 yards from a ground blast, in a slit trench, and all survived the immediate effects. A steel fridge without lead would give more exposure to gamma, but less to the flame.

I'd say if you have even a centimeter of lead, you'd reduce a small device's gamma dose to cancer-causing-only levels. (1 cm of lead stops about 70% of high energy gamma).
 
  • #10
Judging by the scene at 60 seconds, the distance of the willage to the centre of the blast was ~2-3 km.

Here: http://www.nukefix.org/weapon.html I could find some pictures from real tests. In section "Wood-framed homes" there are two pictures related to a test of "250 Kt, 2.65 miles" which are quite fit for the immediate effects seen in the movie.

For the calculation of the immediate radiation effects I've found this: http://www.fourmilab.ch/bombcalc/
If I read it right, for 250Kt and 3 km it suggests only 10 rem, so no immediate effects from gamma or neutron radiation.

(Fallout is a different matter: I welcome any link for the following, 'shower' scene :-) That face is priceless.)

So what remains are:
- the mechanical damage by the flying/landing
- if the fridge can insulate thermal part of the initial blast
- at the landing point of the fridge the land was still on fire: the temperature can be still too high to survive.
 
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  • #11
Roadrunner Cartoons are arguably most entertaining film ever made.
I guess it's good business to emulate success -
Fridge should have said "ACME".
 
  • #12
Thanks so much for all your responses. It took me a while to get back to the forum because I assumed everyone would ignore the question because it's ridiculous.
 
  • #13
We need to go to the Mythbusters website to ask that they test this myth.
 
  • #14
Being inside a fridge crashing into the ground at terminal velocity would be akin to driving into a brick wall at 60 mph. Is it survivable? Maybe, if the fridge has crumple zones, and you were lucky. But I can guarantee you wouldn't be walking away without a scratch from it.
 
  • #15
QuantumPion said:
Being inside a fridge crashing into the ground at terminal velocity would be akin to driving into a brick wall at 60 mph.

It's way worse than that, he was accelerated to what appears to be multiple hundred mph in the blast, because he easily overtakes and passes the guys running away in a car. Terminal velocity of that fridge assuming it's pretty dense is probably 300mph or more. Therefore it would akin to driving into a brick wall at 300mph, not 60.
 
  • #16
Mech_Engineer said:
It's way worse than that, he was accelerated to what appears to be multiple hundred mph in the blast, because he easily overtakes and passes the guys running away in a car. Terminal velocity of that fridge assuming it's pretty dense is probably 300mph or more. Therefore it would akin to driving into a brick wall at 300mph, not 60.

Maybe 100 mph tops. No way its terminal velocity would be that high, unless the thing weighed > 1000 lbs, in which case there's no way it would go airborne to begin with.
 
  • #17
Mech_Engineer said:
It's way worse than that, he was accelerated to what appears to be multiple hundred mph in the blast, because he easily overtakes and passes the guys running away in a car. Terminal velocity of that fridge assuming it's pretty dense is probably 300mph or more. Therefore it would akin to driving into a brick wall at 300mph, not 60.

You guys are ignoring that fact that the lion's share of his velocity is horizontal. Even if his horizontal velocity were 300mph that doesn't mean the impact is tantamount to a brick wall at 300 mph.

Not that were not bifurcating bunnies here. It was a lethal journey no matter how you cut it.
 
  • #18
Haha you're probably right, and he did land on a downhill slope after all... Still it's less plausible than say him jumping out of an airplane with an inflatable raft and surviving by using the raft as a parachute :smile:
 
  • #19
Mech_Engineer said:
Haha you're probably right, and he did land on a downhill slope after all... Still it's less plausible than say him jumping out of an airplane with an inflatable raft and surviving by using the raft as a parachute :smile:
Yeah.

With the parachute/raft, there are plenty of factors that can nudge it into plausibility.

With a refrigerator, you have precious few physics principles at play. Ballistic flight is ballistic flight.
 
  • #20
So, I found a helpful article here http://www.overthinkingit.com/2012/02/22/fridge-nuking-scientific-peer-review/?page=all that answered a lot of questions. But, I have a couple more. In one part the author says Indiana's speed was 38.32 m/s
"Assuming the Soviets are attempting to escape the advancing plume at their vehicle’s maximum speed (~80 mph, or ~35.76 m/s), we estimate Indy’s horizontal velocity to have a total magnitude of approximately (2.3 m/0.9 s + 35.76 m/s) = 38.32 m/s."

I tried to use that to estimate how far he flew from the video. It takes him 19 seconds to launch till he hits the ground on his first bounce (assuming the film is real-time). That means he flew 728.08 meters which is way short of the minimum 2.0 km he would need to stay out of the Lethal total dose (neutrons and gamma rays) range of 1.4km for a 20kT explosion. Much less the 4.2 km he'd have to be to keep from getting third degree burns.

Is my math off or can we assume I'm missing something?

Can we determine how far away he was from the explosion using a plume height of between 30 to 40 feet (again based on 20kt) and the final image of him watching the cloud?
mccall_rogers_2.jpg
 
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  • #21
gulfcoastfella said:
keep in mind that the only thing George Lucas ever hears these days is "yes, it's possible".

Lucas says, "Will the new Star Wars be good?" Everyone says, "Yes, it's possible." LOL
 
  • #22
Hologram0110 said:
I'm assuming that you are in this forum because you want to know about the likeliness that radiation would kill him. Death by acute radiation poisoning requires quite a bit of radiation. Most of those who do die of "acute' radiation doses live for around a week and become weak/sick slowly over that time. To die from radiation within minutes you need much more radiation than would kill you over a week. Based on the movie I will assume that he got so little radiation he didn't even get sick from it.

A fridge would shield you from alpha and most beta. If it were lead lined it would shield you from pretty much all alpha, beta and low energy gamma. Some of the high energy gamma would still get through.

Now the highly scientific way of doing this would be to get a radiation spectrum from a nuclear blast and then use software to calculate how much of that would make it through lead box with 1 cm lead. I think this might be a bit beyond the scope of your blog.

You might just want to look at the radiation dose from gamma at a certain distance and then assume that some percentage of that is blocked. Then look at the survival rates for someone who absorbed that much radiation.

Is there a good site to get that kind of infomation? I haven't found any.
 
  • #23
Rive said:
Judging by the scene at 60 seconds, the distance of the willage to the centre of the blast was ~2-3 km.

Here: http://www.nukefix.org/weapon.html I could find some pictures from real tests. In section "Wood-framed homes" there are two pictures related to a test of "250 Kt, 2.65 miles" which are quite fit for the immediate effects seen in the movie.

For the calculation of the immediate radiation effects I've found this: http://www.fourmilab.ch/bombcalc/
If I read it right, for 250Kt and 3 km it suggests only 10 rem, so no immediate effects from gamma or neutron radiation.

(Fallout is a different matter: I welcome any link for the following, 'shower' scene :-) That face is priceless.)

So what remains are:
- the mechanical damage by the flying/landing
- if the fridge can insulate thermal part of the initial blast
- at the landing point of the fridge the land was still on fire: the temperature can be still too high to survive.

Great numbers. I hadn't noticed the fire in that last scene. I'll have to watch it again. That means he was at least within 2-3km of the blast zone. I'll use a starting point of 2.6 miles.
 
  • #24
My math was off. I forgot about the 200-300m from the bomb to the house. It's still not enough, but a little better.
 
  • #25
Here's my final analysis. I hope someone can check my numbers.

1 Jones Gets in the fridge
Indiana Jones is in a nuclear test town when he hears a siren. The Russians flee the town in a car. He spots the only commercial lead-lined fridge ever made, presumably for nuclear food safety tests. He climbs in, puts on a neckbrace from his bag and gets in crash position. He's now ready for his "magic carpet ride."

2. Explosion
The 20kT nuclear bomb explodes. The atmosphere, plus the walls of the home and 1 cm of lead shielding, protects him from all alpha, beta and low energy gamma radiation. Some 5 rem of high energy gamma gets through. This is within the "safe" limits of radiation exposure of 50 rems. The heat from the fireball causes a high-pressure wave of highly compressed air to develop. The front of the blast wave travels rapidly away from the fireball and launches the fridge into the air.


3. launching
In the air, flying at 38.32 m/s he feels a force of 46.2 G. The horizonal force to his body drains the blood to the lower parts of his body. He stops breathing because his ribs and internal organs empty the air from his lungs. The average person can hold their breath for 1.40 seconds, but Jones easily holds it for the 20 seconds he is in flight thanks to his college history classes. Small cracks in the fridge let some superheated air in, but it mixes with the cool interior and lowers the temperature. Having survived the heat of the Temple of Doom he is comfortable. The Russian car, going 80 mph, is destroyed by the air blast wave, but Jones fridge accelerates plast the blast.

5. landing
19 seconds later and at 1028 meters away the fridge descends to the ground. Realizing he is about to land he flattens his body against the fridge wall. Jones hits the ground with a force equal to slamming into a brick wall at 100 mph. Thanks to his neckbrace and crumple zones built into the fridge by Army engineers he is able to withstand the shock.

He takes off his neckbrace and climbs out. Looking back, he enjoys the view of the the mushroom cloud like a New York tourist. He is scrubbed down to remove the latent radioactive material. His exposure could cause possible late effects, like chromosomal or eye damage. We'll have to wait till the sequels to find out.
 
  • #26
So, not really an analysis; more like a detailed synopsis?

One bit of confusion with these numbers:
The average person can hold their breath for 1.40 seconds, but Jones easily holds it for the 20 seconds he is in flight thanks to his college history classes.
 
  • #27
I guess not an analysis since that was done by overthinkingit.com. I just want to make sure some of my math holds up. I'll break that out of the synopsis for ease of viewing.

A 20kT nuclear bomb (Based on the 1957 Operation Plumbomb testing) would emit 10 rem of high energy gamma radiation at 300m. 1 cm of lead would provide a 50% drop. The calculation of rem is based on Rive's comment even though it's nuch larger. I admit I can't find a reliable gamma radiation exposure calculator like Hologram0110 suggested.

A body flying at 38.32 m/s feels a force of 46.2 G.

Hitting the ground at that speed would be like hitting a brick wall going 60 mph (thanks QuantumPion)

The college history class is a joke, but the record is 14 minutes.

I did hit a snag. According to Wikipedia, a kT explosion would result in Thermal radiation effective ground range of 2000 m. Meaning Jones would literally be standing in the middle of a firestorm. He would have to be at least 4000 m away just to get away with third-degree burns. So, we can assume he was immediately burned to a crisp when he got out of the fridge?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_nuclear_explosions
 
  • #28
Mech_Engineer said:
The most ridiculous part of the scene isn't hiding in a lead-lined fridge. ...
The really ridiculous part is him being thrown miles by the blast, falling hundreds of feet, and surviving inside the fridge.

Fully seconded. The closed fridge would mitigate all the main immediate effects - pressure wave, intense IR, it would even allow the air he was breathing to remain at a tolerable temperature for long enough.

The fall in a fridge onto sand would be a shock deceleration in the 100's of G range, whereas ones internal organs rip out of place at much over 30g, or less depending on your age/health. I think aircraft are required/designed to withstand 22g. Not much point making them stronger than that.
 
  • #29
mauricem said:
A body flying at 38.32 m/s feels a force of 46.2 G.

This isn't true because Indy wouldn't be accelerating at 46.2 G for the entire flight. He would be accelerated by the blast, presumably to some terminal speed in the blast wave, and then follow a projectile trajectory. So for most of the flight he would be basically weightless.

Additionally that speed is way short of what would be required to throw him the distance shown in the time shown. Since he's traveling on the "front" of the blast wave in the movie, he would have to be traveling at the speed of the shock wave from the blast (e.g. the speed of sound). The movie shows him overtaking the car at what appears to be somewhat less than 750 mi/hr, but he'll be traveling a whole lot faster than 85 mi/hr... maybe 150-200 mi/hr (70-90 m/s).

I also take issue with the "hitting a brick wall at 60 mi/hr" also. He appears to be flying in a low incident angle projectile arc with a maximum altitude of maybe 200ft. If this is the case his vertical speed when he hits the ground would be about 77 mi/hr presuming freefall, and that completely ignores any horizontal speed (which is very significant). I would say 100 mi/hr minimum. There are some slight mitigating factors like the downward slope he lands on, but it there are a lot of intensifying factors as well.

Of course, let's not forget that fridge is probably one of the heaviest things in the house, and therefore least likely to be thrown a significant distance... we have to just ignore that fact.
 
  • #30
...but why let the truth get in the way of a good story. I liked the film, but it's not as if I am going to believe there are telepathic glass skulls that would... well, no need to spoil the film for those who've not seen it...! :rolleyes:

The bit of mad science I had a particular problem with (is this a thread diversion, or best to keep 1 film per thread!??) was the warehouse scene and the idea that a magnetic field could be so strong that it could accelerate metal shot through 10's of metres of free space, yet didn't cause other 'issues' for metallic parts as they got closer. I think mag fields are approximated as r^-3, and effectively diminish to nothing once the magnetic energy of the surrounding free-field spaces reaches some level determined by the magnetic material. If the magnetic fields generated by the skull really were that strong (enough to influence a paramagnetic material like gold), then there's no way the rest of the film could've worked out. Anyone who came close to it, I expect their blood (on account of the iron-bearing haemoglobin) would've behaved like a magnetorheological fluid!
 
  • #31
mauricem said:
Can we determine how far away he was from the explosion using a plume height of between 30 to 40 feet...

The plume height will be in thousands of feet, not sure if you missed that. Early in the blast it would probably be in the range of 1000-2000 ft, but it would rise to a final height of maybe 30,000 ft.
 
  • #32
mauricem said:
I did hit a snag. According to Wikipedia, a kT explosion would result in Thermal radiation effective ground range of 2000 m. Meaning Jones would literally be standing in the middle of a firestorm. He would have to be at least 4000 m away just to get away with third-degree burns. So, we can assume he was immediately burned to a crisp when he got out of the fridge?

Fortunately (unfortunately?) no. The effective range of the primary thermal radiation is one thing, but that radiation ends within seconds (as the pure explosion plasma extends and covered by the much colder mushroom cloud). After that the temperature and the thermal radiation converges to the temperature of the environment, which will be much less and - depending on the distance - maybe safe.

Other point is, that the upstream of the nuke will suck in fresh air on ground level which will start cooling the temperature rapidly.

When Mr Jones got out of the fridge some plants on the ground were still on fire (but not destroyed entirely by the previous thermal radiation). This possibly means inconvenient but still survivable conditions.

Ps.: I still think that the distance of the town to the nuke was more than few hundred meters. I understand that this not fits with the effects of a historically correct 20kt bomb in the assumed range, but in case I have to choice the field of the error between historical and observed (erm...) then I will accept the observed and assume the historical error :-)
 
  • #33
Rive, my man. I hadn't thought in terms of time. You just saved my post. What distance do you think the town was from the blast? I'm open to suggestions.
 
  • #34
Prefect breakdown. Thats exactly what I was missing. I did think he was traveling the speed of sound, but thought that would mean he was going the same speed throughout. That would mean he was traveling at amazing rate of speed. Hitting a brick wall at 100mph would be pretty nasty. Assuming, of course, a lead fridge could even fly. ;)
 
  • #35
Mech_Engineer said:
The plume height will be in thousands of feet, not sure if you missed that. Early in the blast it would probably be in the range of 1000-2000 ft, but it would rise to a final height of maybe 30,000 ft.
Missed some zeros. Thanks MechEngineer.
 
<h2>1. What is the "nuking the fridge" scene in Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull?</h2><p>The "nuking the fridge" scene refers to a scene in the movie Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull where Indiana Jones survives a nuclear explosion by hiding inside a lead-lined refrigerator.</p><h2>2. Is it scientifically possible for someone to survive a nuclear explosion by hiding in a fridge?</h2><p>No, it is not scientifically possible for someone to survive a nuclear explosion by hiding in a fridge. The intense heat and pressure from a nuclear explosion would likely kill anyone inside a fridge.</p><h2>3. Why did the filmmakers include the "nuking the fridge" scene in the movie?</h2><p>The filmmakers included the "nuking the fridge" scene as a way to pay homage to the iconic and often unbelievable action sequences in the previous Indiana Jones movies. It was meant to be a fun and over-the-top moment in the film.</p><h2>4. Are there any real-life instances of people surviving a nuclear explosion in a similar way?</h2><p>No, there are no documented cases of people surviving a nuclear explosion by hiding in a fridge. However, there have been cases of people surviving nuclear explosions by being in underground shelters or being at a safe distance from the blast.</p><h2>5. How did the fridge protect Indiana Jones from the nuclear explosion?</h2><p>The fridge did not actually protect Indiana Jones from the nuclear explosion. In the movie, it is shown that the fridge is lined with lead, which is a material that can block radiation. However, the intense heat and pressure from the explosion would still likely kill someone inside the fridge.</p>

1. What is the "nuking the fridge" scene in Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull?

The "nuking the fridge" scene refers to a scene in the movie Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull where Indiana Jones survives a nuclear explosion by hiding inside a lead-lined refrigerator.

2. Is it scientifically possible for someone to survive a nuclear explosion by hiding in a fridge?

No, it is not scientifically possible for someone to survive a nuclear explosion by hiding in a fridge. The intense heat and pressure from a nuclear explosion would likely kill anyone inside a fridge.

3. Why did the filmmakers include the "nuking the fridge" scene in the movie?

The filmmakers included the "nuking the fridge" scene as a way to pay homage to the iconic and often unbelievable action sequences in the previous Indiana Jones movies. It was meant to be a fun and over-the-top moment in the film.

4. Are there any real-life instances of people surviving a nuclear explosion in a similar way?

No, there are no documented cases of people surviving a nuclear explosion by hiding in a fridge. However, there have been cases of people surviving nuclear explosions by being in underground shelters or being at a safe distance from the blast.

5. How did the fridge protect Indiana Jones from the nuclear explosion?

The fridge did not actually protect Indiana Jones from the nuclear explosion. In the movie, it is shown that the fridge is lined with lead, which is a material that can block radiation. However, the intense heat and pressure from the explosion would still likely kill someone inside the fridge.

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