Old Physics Apparatuses - Identification Help

[Adventurer]

Hello,

I am an undergrad in my senior year at a small liberal arts college. This summer, I have been given the task of assessing our physics labs. Specifically, we have a lot of old equipment that the professors don't know much about, and they would like me to find out if it works anymore. After some Google searches, I have not been able to come up with anything for a few particular apparatuses. Would this be an appropriate place to post some pictures of the equipment, in the hopes that someone can help me identify it?

Thank you in advance for your help!

 

[krd]

Post some pictures, let's see what you've got at your liberal arts college.

 

[Danger]

If it has a zipper and a kick-starter, your arts college is too liberal.

 

[sophiecentaur]

I can't wait! If it's made of Mahogany and Brass, so much the better!

 

[Adventurer]

Well, not necessarily mahogany and brass, but we do have some really old stuff. I believe some of it dates from the 40s. It is a possibility I'll find even older stuff hanging around though; I'm sure this thread will become longer as I find or am assigned more equipment to investigate :)

So, here's the first one:
The only markings on it say Fisher Scientific 900725-065
I can find no documentation/manuals on it anywhere in our labs, nor on the net.

 

[Adventurer]

Here's the second one. This is the one I believe may be from the 40s.

 

[Danger]

It looks like some sort of optical comparitor, or perhaps a stereoscopic microscope...

edit: That's in response to the first. Now I'll look at the second.

2nd edit: Okay, that other thing is one freaky looking piece of kit. One piece is labeled "klystron", which is almost a maser (ie: semi-coherent and focused microwave generator). The plaque in the last picture would tend to support that it outputs EM. The audio dial seems out of place, unless it's some sort of radar system that beeps. And once again,

 

[sophiecentaur]

The first is a spectrometer, I reckon. One arm is the collimator, to produce a vertical slit illumination and the other arm is a telescope. You put a prism or grating on the central table and measure the relative angles of the spectral lines. DO NOT THROW IT AWAY! Someone will regret it if you do. (And I will hate you for ever)

 

[sophiecentaur]

The other is a microwave test set of some sort. There is a klystron and a transmitting horn on a line with a detector / wavemeter (?). The electronics is ancient but that could always be updated. Again, it's worth hanging on to because replacement kit is always ridiculously pricy and not always good quality.

Got any more??

 

[Adventurer]

Haha, don't worry, I'm not going to throw any of it away! We just have a bunch of equipment that hasn't been used in at least a decade (or more than half a century).

Would you know anywhere I could go or a source I could consult to find some documentation or manuals on these setups?

We only have two advanced physics lab classes currently on the books. Each course is taught only once every two years (and sometimes there is a longer gap between offerings). In total, there are about 10 apparatuses/experiments that are used between the two, and several are out of commission, so we're just doing a general inventory to see if some of our old stuff works well enough to be brought into use again.

I will have a few more setups, but not right away. I'll do my best to post them as soon as I can, but it may be a week or two. Thank you for the help! Any and all speculations are welcome on what this stuff is or how I could find out enough about it to use it.

 

[Danger]

we do have some really old stuff. I believe some of it dates from the 40s.

Hey, now! I just noticed that statement. Keep in mind that some of the people who you are asking for help also date from the 40's. :tongue:

(Not me; I''m young... but some guys like Turbo and Thomas are older than dirt.)

 

[krd]

The first one is definitely a spectrometer. And it looks in nearly never been used condition.

Be careful - there are other bits and pieces that come with it. (at least usually - or stuff you'd need to do experiments) Slides with gratings on them - light sources (little neon type tubes of stuff) and maybe a few prisms.

The table - the bit in the middle - they'll be other bits a piece for clipping what you've got into it.

I haven't touched one in years - I love to have a go.

 

[krd]

Hey, now! I just noticed that statement. Keep in mind that some of the people who you are asking for help also date from the 40's. :tongue:

(Not me; I''m young... but some guys like Turbo and Thomas are older than dirt.)

These kids...At their liberal arts college...probably think the Olsen Twins are geriatrics.

 

[Danger]

...probably think the Olsen Twins are geriatrics.

They're a bit too old for me, but still pretty hot. :tongue2:

 

[Adventurer]

Hey, now! I just noticed that statement. Keep in mind that some of the people who you are asking for help also date from the 40's. :tongue:

(Not me; I''m young... but some guys like Turbo and Thomas are older than dirt.)

My apologies. I was referring to the technology behind the apparatuses (vacuum tubes and the like), not to people. It would be great to hear from people who actually have used set-ups like this before. Our professors here are just a bunch of young whipper-snappers

 

[Adventurer]

Be careful - there are other bits and pieces that come with it. (at least usually - or stuff you'd need to do experiments) Slides with gratings on them - light sources (little neon type tubes of stuff) and maybe a few prisms.

The table - the bit in the middle - they'll be other bits a piece for clipping what you've got into it.

We have drawers and cabinets full of optical accessories. I'm sure they're hanging around somewhere. It's just hard to find the right ones since I can't locate a manual haha!

 

[Reptillian]

I'll agree with the spectrometer assessment, but the second one looks like a radio of sorts. Maybe a kind of radio transmitter/receiver? An old timey walkie talkie?

 

[sophiecentaur]

Hey, now! I just noticed that statement. Keep in mind that some of the people who you are asking for help also date from the 40's. :tongue:

(Not me; I''m young... but some guys like Turbo and Thomas are older than dirt.)

Fit for the scrap heap, some of us. The polish has worn off the mahogany.

 

[sophiecentaur]

I'll agree with the spectrometer assessment, but the second one looks like a radio of sorts. Maybe a kind of radio transmitter/receiver? An old timey walkie talkie?

Did you not notice the klystron (centre) and microwave horn (on the right)? It's a lot posher than the standard School Microwave stuff but there's no doubt about its purpose. That big grey box could be chucked out if it doesn't work when turned on. It wouldn't be hard for a 'constructor type' to design and make up a better power supply / modulator. Perhaps a new valve may be needed but most types (or equivalents) are available these days.

Haha - you use the term 'Old Time' like it had a spark transmitter and coherer. Cheeky young pup.

 

[Danger]

The polish has worn off the mahogany.

You shouldn't have rubbed it so hard.

Adventurer, have you considered contacting either the Smithsonian or the Library of Congress? If there is printed material such as operations manuals for your stuff, one of them might have it. Even if you aren't in the USA, they might be willing to assist you.

 

[sophiecentaur]

For something like a spectrometer, you certainly wouldn't need a specific manual - just an old textbook with some descriptions of experiments in spectroscopy. Blue Tac and sticky tape are fine for fixing gratings and prisms in place if your box of accessories is missing. All the essentials seem to be there in your pictures.
Even the microwave equipment would only require a general knowledge of microwave equipment (no manual you could find would tell you how to Mend It, in any case). I should have hoped that you could drag out some ancient old academic from some dusty cupboard to fire up the klystron - given a multimeter and oscilloscope. But a Gunn oscillator (solid state) source would easily do the job and these are available and more reliable.
Time was when Lab Techs were good at this sort of thing but now they only know about software and simulations.

 

[epenguin]

Hey, now! I just noticed that statement. Keep in mind that some of the people who you are asking for help also date from the 40's. :tongue:

(Not me; I''m young... but some guys like Turbo and Thomas are older than dirt.)

You never know when the old things may turn out useful.

 

[AlephZero]

Even the microwave equipment would only require a general knowledge of microwave equipment (no manual you could find would tell you how to Mend It, in any case). I should have hoped that you could drag out some ancient old academic from some dusty cupboard to fire up the klystron - given a multimeter and oscilloscope. But a Gunn oscillator (solid state) source would easily do the job and these are available and more reliable.

Some if that may be meant to be humorous, but seriously I would be very wary of trying to power up any 50 year old high voltage electronic equipment, unless you know enough to give it a at least a thorough clean and visual inspection first, and ideally check it out at the level of the individual components as well. Ancient high voltage capacitors etc don't improve with age, and they can fail in quite spectacular (and dangerous) ways.

Also, general safety standards for lab equipment back then were not the same as they are now. Not that students 50 years ago were killed very often in lab accidents, but they were much less likely to sue you over minor incidents compared with today. And today's students probably haven't built up the years of experience of working with the sort of lab hazards that were "normal" back then.

 

[sophiecentaur]

A reflex klystron isn't a high voltage device. I'm pretty sure it only uses the same voltage as normal valve equipment. Its output power is not many tens of mW.
I can't see more of an issue than turning on an aging audio amp. It would be necessary to give it a PAT test first.

 

[AlephZero]

A reflex klystron isn't a high voltage device. I'm pretty sure it only uses the same voltage as normal valve equipment. Its output power is not many tens of mW.

Well, it depends what you call "not high voltage" or "normal valve equipment"

Some old data sheets for on Mullard refkex klystrons here. http://frank.pocnet.net/other/Mullard/PD/klystrons.pdf The output powers are tens of mW as you say, but the voltage difference across the two electrodes are of the order of 500 to 1000V. That need to be taken seriously IMO. If you fire up a 400V eletrolytic capacitor that's been gathering dust for 40 years, it's a bit of a gamble whether it's open circuit, short circuit, or a small explosive device!

 

[Bobbywhy]

Your electromagnetic radiation (microwave) demonstration unit is the Budd-Stanley ED-SET, model X4100. The 65-page technical manual is available at:
http://198.187.3.178/ehp/rp/budstan.pdf

It includes theory, operation instructions, maintenance procedures, schematic diagram, and more.
Observation: This document is a good example of a superbly-written technical manual. Modern-day technical writers would gain by studying its format, organization, and clarity.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Well, it depends what you call "not high voltage" or "normal valve equipment"

Some old data sheets for on Mullard refkex klystrons here. http://frank.pocnet.net/other/Mullard/PD/klystrons.pdf The output powers are tens of mW as you say, but the voltage difference across the two electrodes are of the order of 500 to 1000V. That need to be taken seriously IMO. If you fire up a 400V eletrolytic capacitor that's been gathering dust for 40 years, it's a bit of a gamble whether it's open circuit, short circuit, or a small explosive device!

That all makes sense but would you just sling the whole lot? Personally, I'd be inclined to take the power supply and klystron and fire them up somewhere safe like the garage floor or the garden. I would examine the electrolytics (any high voltage capacitors are more likely non-electrolytic as they won't be high capacity values?). A Gunn source would be the obvious answer to the problem if the PSU goes dark brown.

The presence of that Manual (posted above) would make things much easier.

 

[DragonPetter]

For the first tool, you could attach cameras with appropriate lenses that display the measurements in a program on a laptop and motors to turn the knobs. That would update your equipment for modern uses. I have a feeling that bending down with that thing against my eye would hurt after a while, and it would be really annoying to turn all those knobs.

 

[sophiecentaur]

For the first tool, you could attach cameras with appropriate lenses that display the measurements in a program on a laptop and motors to turn the knobs. That would update your equipment for modern uses.

And a glass bubble for the students to sit in, lest they actually "touch the beastly thing?"
What's wrong with a bit of Hands-on, when getting a feel for a subject? There's too much use of simulations these days and these 'refinements' tend to blur the line between simulation and reality.
Make 'em grind their own lenses and wind their own transformers too.

 

[DragonPetter]

And a glass bubble for the students to sit in, lest they actually "touch the beastly thing?"
What's wrong with a bit of Hands-on, when getting a feel for a subject? There's too much use of simulations these days and these 'refinements' tend to blur the line between simulation and reality.
Make 'em grind their own lenses and wind their own transformers too.

Cause people will break it. I remember I had to use old-timer mass scales in my first chemistry course and they were so junky because people don't know how to treat equipment. A digital scale would have been much more fool proof.

 

[Integral]

Fisher Scientific is still alive and well, you may find good info on their site.

 

[AlephZero]

I would examine the electrolytics (any high voltage capacitors are more likely non-electrolytic as they won't be high capacity values?).

Back then electrolytics were standard for power supply smoothing. Often they were packaged as multiple caps in one can, all connected to a common ground. Typcail values for a low power device might be 20 uf 450V + 30 uF 350V in one can, to make a "pi section" filter with an inductor between the "live" terminals. (The higher peak voltage was on the rectifier side, of course)

If you really want to keep the old caps, the best plan is take them out of the circuit and "re-form" them with a slowly increasing DC voltage (ramping up to the max voltage over a few hours time scale) current-limited to a few mA maximum, so any initial leakage current won't overheat the cap.

Some "restorers" even take top off the original cans, clean out the contents, and then rewire some modern replacement caps inside the old cans to keep the origianal appearance!

 

[the_emi_guy]

Your electromagnetic radiation (microwave) demonstration unit is the Budd-Stanley ED-SET, model X4100. The 65-page technical manual is available at...

I'm impressed! How did you manage to find this?

 

[Bobbywhy]

In photo 1 0f 3 the name "ED-SET" is on the faceplate, left side. Google search using the terms "microwave klystron ed set" did the rest.