Is Chi Real? Exploring the Concept of Chi in Chinese Philosophy

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In summary: Anyway, I'm not sure what to call it.At one point he described how one can build up waves of energy. For example, if one is to throw a right punch, the waves might travel between the right fist and the rear-most foot. The most proficient experts can allegedly quickly produce seven waves, I think it was, which enables an incredibly powerful punch. As a black belt, my buddy could only get to three waves or so.I think this describes Bruce Lee's famous one inch punch.In summary, an electrical current runs through your body and everything around you. Chi may be what the Chinese were referring to when they talked about a force called Chi. Chi is supposedly an electrical current that runs
  • #36
what a great scene! i haven't watched caddyshack in a while! oh that naughty lama!

xxxx Gareth
 
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  • #37
So then should we assume that in fact martial artists cannot explain their own feats of strength and skill? We have tried to have this discussion several times, but no one seems willing to take on direct questions. This usually happens when people are unable to answer those questions.
 
  • #38
Ivan Seeking said:
So then should we assume that in fact martial artists cannot explain their own feats of strength and skill? We have tried to have this discussion several times, but no one seems willing to take on direct questions. This usually happens when people are unable to answer those questions.
Not sure what kind of explanation you are looking for. Like revealing the secret of some magic trick? (Of course, in some cases that's exactly what it is. :wink: ) I challenge just about any high-level athlete to "explain" how they do what they do.

But, on the other hand, I know what you mean. What would be really cool would be if someone would be interested enough to do some detailed scientific study on some of the more esoteric things. (Some of this has been done. You can find a few research articles modeling the body during a "karate strike" and attempting to explain its power through physics.) Until then, practitioners will have to just limp along, learning by doing (and thinking and questioning).

I don't see any value in introducing the notion of "chi" or "ki" except metaphorically.

You had asked about breaking skills earlier. Here are my thoughts on that. I've seen many demos of breaking skills over the years. (Even did a few myself, back in the day.) As you can expect, there are many ways to "cheat": using spacers, baking boards to dry them out, cherry-picking softer bricks, and more. Nonetheless, many breaking stunts are quite legit. I've seen a guy break two baseball bats with his shins. (Sure, at the thin part... but still.) A good friend of mine (a true master) routinely used to do speed breaks like so: Stand 3 bricks on end on a table, then slice all three with one (fast) edge of hand blow. Pretty impressive! (I routinely did a much easier version of that as a demo when I taught physics 101 years ago. I would hold two or three boards vertically in one hand (by the edge, hanging down) then break them with an inside edge of hand blow. The trick? Think speed!) Yes, you have to know exactly what to hit with and where.

Apparently the human body is much more resiliant than one might think. But there's usually a price to be paid. Most of the people I know who have done hard style training for years (I'm talking about hitting hard objects, supposedly to toughen every conceivable striking surface) have paid a severe price. Most--not all--have destroyed themselves in the process of training. One of my instructors (another true master--I don't toss that term out lightly) has hands (highly arthritic) that would freak out a normal person--they just aren't human. But this is his life, the path he has chosen. Getting hit by this man is like getting hit with a steel bar--he would blow throw most people like tissue paper.

Personally, I do not think that excessive conditioning (of striking surfaces) is necessary or even useful. Hitting a live target is so much different that hitting a hard, immoveable target, that there is little carryover for most people. Much more useful is to be able to drop your weight into a moving target from any angle with essentially no windup. How to do that? It's a skill, like any other. It involves hyperbalance (training the proprioceptors to maintain balance under wildly changing circumstances, so that you are always in balance), balancing relaxation and tension of the appropriate muscles at the right time, proper body alignment, being able to drop your weight (rebounding energy from a rooted stance) and redirect the energy into your target. I admit, these verbal descriptions are pretty lame. One master I train with is so good at this that it almost gives meaning to "chi". He can, from just about any position, balanced on one leg, with his hand just touching you, slam you so hard just by dropping his weight (almost imperceptible) that you are tossed back across the room (if he wants to be nice) or that you get your chest caved in (not so nice).

I hope this helps a little. (As far as the more esoteric "martial arts"--like folks who claim to be able to retract their testicles or take full-on shots to the throat--beats me! I've yet to meet such people in person.)
 
  • #39
Thanks Doc Al.

To a limit I can accept that if one is willing to endure the physical abuse, some breaking demos, taking some blows to some soft areas, etc, can reasonably be explained.

I guess the real problem is in differentiating between genuine demos and magic tricks. One of the most impressive breaking stunts that I've seen that appeared to be legit, was done by some nth degree black belt [n large] who sliced a pile of bricks in half that...geez...was perhaps ten bricks tall or more? I've seen similar demos using cinder blocks, boards, and probably a few other things. In all cases, the first thought for me is that there simply is not enough bone and muscle in the hand and wrists to explain in a trivial way, how this happens. Also, were they to attempt any of these extreme demos, I am sure that most any untrained person would simply tear muscle tissue and snap bones.

Again, I don't know which demos might be tricks, but like you, I know for a fact that to some degree these sorts of things really happen. Also, when I say that we can't explain this in a trivial manner, I mean only that there may be mechanics or even physiology involved that we don't understand. If some of these guys can actually take hard blows to the throat, I think we would all have a really hard time explaining this.

So there are two, maybe three issues here:

First, what are the most extreme legitimate stunts to be found.

Next, can we explain how the body endures these stunts? I suspect that we cannot explain [without arm waiving] the most extreme genuine stunts performed by true masters. To me, this suggests that there may be something to the idea of the Chi [whatever that is]. To me, Chi may may simply be a name for an unexplained phenomenon. A stack of bricks is very real.

Finally, if there is a mystery, whether or not the popular interpretations of the Chi are correct, is yet another [set of] question.
 
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  • #40
Perhaps a related conversation is that so called feats of superhuman strength, such as in this story:

Most of the nine officers who witnessed or took part in the five-minute attempt to subdue Le Menn described the Frenchman to jurors as a madman who growled, screamed nonsense and had the ability to throw officers around a cell with superhuman strength.
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2001/Feb-25-Sun-2001/news/15519751.html

And of course, episodes of superhuman strength are also associated with drugs.

Although PCP abusers valued it for its psychedelic properties, the terrifying hallucinations and sensory numbing it induced often led those under its influence to display violent and erratic behavior, including superhuman strength and imperviousness to painful stimuli along with telltale ataxia and nystagmus
http://www.psy.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/40/4/356

There is a story in my own family about a great-aunt who allegedly carried a refrigerator - her first, and around the time of the great depression - from her burning house. As the story goes, she was a woman of small stature who normally couldn't begin to move something so heavy.

These sorts of stories are fairly common. To what extent any are verified is unknown to me. Also, the definition of "superhuman" is obviously a problem. I don't see that threshold quantified anywhere in the CRC. :biggrin:
 
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  • #41
This may be the guy that I saw. It has been a long time so I have no way to be sure.
See the photo at the bottom of the page where this person allegedly breaks sixteen bricks.
http://www.ironpalm.com/Brown.html [Broken]

From this page
http://www.recordholders.org/en/list/karate.html

I have no idea what might be credible.
 
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  • #42
I took the liberty to contact James Patrick Lacy who is cited as a 7th generation Daoist Palms Grandmaster. As nearly as I can tell, this gentleman is one of a small group of world class elites - a grandmaster in a subdiscipline of Kung Fu. Mr Lacy was kind enough to give a very thoughtful and seemingly honest answer regarding his perception and understanding of the so called Chi and the role it plays in the martial arts.

Since he is a philosopher and not a scientist, and since I asked what he thinks of all this, even though not entirely appropriate for this forum, out of respect I will quote his answer in its entirety. As is seen in the first paragraph, obviously religion plays a large role in Mr. Lacy's life, and I didn't want to pick and choose what to quote. but please do not consider this as an invitation to engage in religious debates as they are off limits in all PF forums. Mr Lacy continues to talk about his view of the martial arts and offers some interesting insights. And again, the point is to investigate the reality of broken bricks.

In the end, I'm still getting a mixed message.

Jesus controls all the forces of nature in our local universe – whether living or non-living. God is love, thus all that happens with every molecule in our universe is purposed for love. We live in a welcoming universe of progress. This is the setting from my subjective experience. Experience is always our best litmus as to our own way of viewing God’s love. As scientists, religionists and philosophers, we need to realize our dependence on each other to in essence; prove God as best we can. I acknowledge your groups purpose in getting to the truth. Let me take a moment here to explain my view of truth since the One God Concept, as we know it today evolved from the times of Melchizedek and Abraham, around 2000 BC. Missionaries from the far east went to study at Jerusalem, then know as Salem. The Yellow race or founders of Taoism (Daoism) focused on those teachings that concerned the universal principle of positive and aggressive – and negative and retiring. From these they created their cosmogony that dictated the principles of healing and fighting. The Chinese are the most warlike and at the same time the most peaceful of the colored races. The way the world has explained chi, ki, prana, mana or life force has in my opinion lacked the true core meaning that we all can relate to, and as far as I am concerned what we all can relate to are truisms that we can see similarities over differences about. I operate as a long time liver of The Urantia Book. My religion is the religion of the “I am” and is based on the principle for me that only Jesus is the True Master. Now that you know my position in the big picture, let me address you question more specifically.

All feats of so-called chi are tricks that can be reproduced if the demonstrator is willing to be honest. For instance, you mentioned Ed’s stack of bricks without spacers. Ask yourself if it could be possible to pick, stack, age, dry or otherwise have inner knowledge of the substance so as to provide an advantage. Even if the practitioner does have these special insights for advantage, it is still a ‘calculated’ risk to be appreciated. When the breaker does the demonstration for power over others or glory for themselves, they are practicing evil. Secrets do not advance ethics. Let us take coconuts for example. I can stack three coconuts and pretty much be able to break the top of three, middle of three or bottom of three. I could be secretive and let you figure it out, or I could save you the time and tell you that it is all in the experience of guessing which coconut is harder. The hard will break the softer under it, or if you put the softer on top, it will break first. The energies of occultism are real to a point. Real occultists or martial artists like myself welcome the grafting of science on to our older pagan science. We do this with oriental medicine. The more of your group that analyze and ruthlessly scrutinize The Urantia Book, the easier it will be for you to set the trend as pioneers wanting to put to science not just chi, but drugs and other things. It is sort of like going to the doctor who tells you your readings are high for possible prostrate cancer. Someone like me says thanks for the diagnosis, but I can heal myself. In other words, we are our own physicians.

I am the only martial artist in the world who has defined chi as basically faith and courage training. All the lessons of life for any of us come from these. Imagine being deaf, dumb and blind. You could still hear God’s guidance and hear celestial music. This would be the challenge: To realize we all will have to learn to cloth ourselves with our thoughts as we progress the mansions worlds. Though by thought – “turn on, tune in and take control.” We cannot really read each other’s minds and complete understanding of the sexes is unobtainable. We are stuck on a world that must now look for similarities over differences. When I break coconuts between pillows, it is basically a slam break. When I use a support hand it is basically a lift break. A coconut left in the sun will hairline break. Do brick breakers share this much? If chi is energy, then the debate is who created the energy and what does science call it. I think science will prove God in time. We cannot debunk faith and courage, thus we cannot debunk a person using any math leverage to accomplish anything. The debunkers job is to duplicate what the breaker does explaining it as I did with coconuts. That said; can you get hurt trying to duplicate the ‘tricks’? – most definitely! Moreover, therein lies the humor; to even try to duplicate the fakirs, jugglers, mesmerizes etc., is often most definitely a test of faith and courage.

Since life is progress but there is nothing new under the sun, culture must be learned each generation anew. Magic and Daoism are intertwined because Magic was pre-science. Much like our ancestors taming fire, we can use our faith and courage, or knowledge of “chi” to more deeply explain Jesus’ ultimate control of nature’s forces, or we can deny Jesus. In my opinion if we choose the later, it is we ourselves that shall be embarrassed by Him.

OK guys – you are the best and I am the worst, but hopefully this will vibrate with a third of you and the other two thirds hopefully can learn something of value from a fool. Our country and the world depend on you to advance all technology and the language of science so as to ‘prove’ things from the past that might with tweaking prove useful according to the all important customs, mores and traditions of our times. Our greatest challenge is to understand this qigong movement. How much more powerful would it be with the realization of Pentecost and Holy Spirit. I call that super consciousness rather than subconscious reaction. Rapid reasoning, quick judgment and discernment of spirit. In my humble opinion, a person connected to Holy Spirit could never lose a fight even to the most skilled martial artist. The Chinese used simple magic and that is how they attempted to explain any martial phenomenon. I think in large the white man shares much of their soul and sentiment.

Spirit and Will are the same. Courage is always tempered with reason. Some of my breaks have been absolutely phenomenal to me personally and done with no trickery. Other times I do creative breaks that push the limit of moving that chi or faith and courage to different areas of the body. The mind is not subject to gravity, thus the universe communicates with itself through reflectivity process. No one should be mystified by chi. Certainly the Chinese have no monopoly on it, nor do the Hindus, as Melchizedek (the first High Priest of Salem and Abraham’s mentor,) was the first to teach it to missionaries who traveled to Salem to learn and then obviously took what was useful for their purposes and ability to understand the big picture. I want everyone to ponder how Jesus parted the crown trying to walk him off a cliff. There are mental chi, physical and spiritual chi uses and we all literally use the concept of faith and courage training daily. A man who can support his family is using chi daily in a successful way.

This took me an hour to pen off the tip of my head. It does not even scratch the surface, but it does address I hope certain aspects of chi perhaps not frequently talked about in this way. May you all through sharing your personal experiences help further the cause of truth!

Sincerely

James Patrick Lacy

www.ironpalm.com

Many thanks to Mr Lacy for his kind response.

I also found this:
http://www.karatebreaking.com/materials.html [Broken]
 
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  • #43
Well, I'm a Chi atheist. Put Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, or any of those self-proclaimed "Chi masters", at their prime against any top ranked heavyweight UFC fighter, and the "Chi masters" would be quickly dispatched, because the UFC fighters train every day against live opponents, build up optimal strength and endurance for their weight class, and study all the various martial arts forms to be able to deal with any situation that develops during a fight.

It all boils down to whose the best fighter at the time, combined with some luck (like who hits who first with a good shot, or gets a good submission hold).

Punching and pulling back doesn't inflict more damage, but it does provide for a better defense against a counter punch. Twisting your fist while punching to a soft area of an opponents body may increase the effect.
 
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  • #44
Are you sure that UFC fighters haven't learned to use their own Chi? Perhaps they just call it something else; such as being "in the zone".
 
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  • #45
Perhaps a related idea?

Performance Related Emotional States in Sport: A Qualitative Analysis

Yuri L. Hanin

Abstract: In this paper, I provide a brief overview of the sports-specific individualized approach (termed—the Individual Zones of Optimal Functioning [IZOF] model) as an action-oriented framework for qualitative analysis of performance related emotional states. First, I highlight the issue of multidimensionality and introduce five basic dimensions (penta-basis) to describe performance-related emotional states. These dimensions include form, content/quality, intensity, time, and context. Four major IZOF-based predictions of emotion-performance relationships focus on interindividual variability of optimal emotion intensity and content, the in-out of the zone notion, interactive effects of emotions enhancing and impairing performance, and bi-directionality of emotion-performance relationships. Then, I describe several projects that use different data collection techniques for assessment of idiosyncratic emotion content. These include interviews, individualized emotion profiling, metaphor-generation method, and narratives. Future research directions from individualized and discursive perspectives are suggested and implications for combining qualitative and quantitative approaches in the analysis of performance related states are discussed. [continued]
http://www.qualitative-research.net/fqs-texte/1-03/1-03hanin-e.htm
 
  • #46
Ivan Seeking said:
Are you sure that UFC fighters haven't learned to use their own Chi?
Their belief in Chi would depend on what martial arts training they had. As far as actually using Chi, I don't see any evidence of it. Some Chi masters claim they can't be picked up or thrown, and I've never seen any evidence of this in the octagon. I've never seen any evidence of super-human punches, such as short punches doing any real damage during a ground and pound sequence. All of the knock-out punches I've seen were just good shots.

I knew a 6th blackbelt martial artist who runs a self defense school (our common interest was radio control gliders of all things, he was on the USA rc glider F3J team one year). They don't teach Chi, but points out that any form of training involves training the mind as well as muscles. He pointed out that in cases like Israel martial arts training for their soldiers, that if Chi training provided an advantage, they would teach it, but they don't. As for my own personal experience, I took Taekwando for a few months twice (in both cases the schools closed down, and I lost interest), it's mostly about kicks and some punches while standing up, a limited sub-set of martial-arts.

My belief is there is no magical mental force going on, and just like any sport, it boils down to proper training, and in the case of full-contact sports, those with good power to weight ratios, and the ability to take a punch in the heavier classes (a process of elimination more than training when it comes to taking head shots, some fighters, like Muhammed Ali in his prime, could take punches much better than other humans with similar training, on the other hand you have Thomas Hearns, who could punch very hard, but as he stepped up in weight class to middle weight, couldn't take the punches of a Marvin Hagler).
 
  • #47
My belief is there is no magical mental force going on

This gets to the heart of the distinction I am making and your interpretation of it. First of all, we already had a grandmaster tell us that magic tricks are used in some cases. So I think we all agree that we're not talking about magic. But as with the mixed message that I got from Mr. Lacy, I get the same one from virtually everyone that discusses this subject. And IMO its not limited to the martial arts. IIRC, there was a book called "The Art of Tennis" that discussed "the zone" at great length. Almost any athlete will tell you of a certain state of mind that goes along with their most "phenomenal" performances. And I too know this feeling. My suggestion is that this may all be part of a complex picture, some of which is interpreted as the Chi, but not that we are limited to the popular or ancient interpretations of what this may be.

I like to think of it this way. Back when it was believed that disease was caused by evil spirits, in the most general sense, in some cases they were right. To me, evil spirits is a pretty good 13th century name for bacterial infections. In a similar light, I wonder if Chi is just a name for a complex physical phenomenon.

Magic has nothing to do with this discussion. We all agree that all real things are real. If Chi is a name for something real, then clearly it is not magic.
 
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  • #48
there was a book called "The Art of Tennis" that discussed "the zone" at great length.
In my opinion, being in the "zone" is both physical and mental. Being in the zone occurs due a combination of things within your body so that your outputs are optimal, for example, your muscles responding exactly in the way you want them to. One factor is strength conditioning, if you're a little weak, it will take more input to get the same output, if you're a little strong, it takes less input to get the same output.

Another factors is flexibility in your muscles; your muscle flexibility also plays a factor in how your muscles respond to inputs. A bit off topic here, but I've seen a few skilled martial artists who are pathetic at accurately kicking a high target until they've stretched and warmed up.

In the case of a sport like tennis, or table tennis (which I'm more familiar with), observing and prediciting the path of the ball is also better on some days than others. Again, I think this is a case of bio-physics, not even the level concentration. A person's hand-eye coordination is just better on some days than others, probably because of the proper amount of nutrients, water, and other similar factors.

Another factor is lack of distractions, such as nervousness. Some people learn to control this, while others just learn to compensate for the nervousness. Referring to tennis, Borg seem to play best when he was calm, while MacEnroe seemed to be able to play well when very agitated.

When I've been in the "zone", it was when I was well warmed up, and a bit fatigued, with moderate respiration, sweat and temperature. The fatigue factor affected both my mental state (more relaxed and controlled) as well as my physical state (the way my muscles responded). There's also a time factor factor as I continued to get "dialed" in during play.
 
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  • #49
As a sidebar, artificial Chi. :biggrin:

The goal of the Exoskeletons for Human Performance Augmentation Program is to develop devices and machines that will increase the speed, strength, and endurance of soldiers in combat environments. Projects will lead to self-powered, controlled, and wearable exoskeletal devices and/or machines and demonstrations of their utility in military applications. [continued]
http://www.darpa.mil/dso/thrust/matdev/ehpa.htm
 
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  • #50
My feel of Chi is that of the electric current you can feel at the extremities when you put some stress. The easiest way to feel it is to bend the wrist so that the hand is ninety degrees up and then to imagine you are pushing some block behind you. As you extend the arm (keeping the hand 90 degrees up) you can feel a sort of electricity in the palm. With training, you get this feeling even without putting stress in your muscles, so this Chi gives you an extra perception of your body position.

If this is the Chi, then it is not exactly physical but biophysical. And it does not seem related to Kundalini, by the way (at least not to the upwards flow as I remember to feel it).
 
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  • #51
matter=consciousness=qi

Doc Al said:
Oh yeah, that explains everything... :rolleyes:

Silverbackman said:
It could be, we really don't know what fundamental conscious awareness looks like ;).

It really is as simple as thinking of it as your fundamental will or consciousness telling (or perhaps asking) the bricks to break. They respond because at the core, brick is pure consciousness, just like everything else in the universe. How easy or difficult it is depends on the ability of the martial artist to focus their will. As an addition, pure physical strength and adrenaline can be heightened/increased by the will. Martial artists come from a physical state of mind, with will/focus as secondary. A true master does not even need to strike the bricks to make them break. You may roll your eyes and call it magic but it is not. It is simply an individual interacting with the universe at an incredibly fundamental level. Striking the brick and using rituals simply aids in focus/expression of will.

From David Bohm: "Consciousness is much more of the implicate order than is matter. . . Yet at a deeper level [matter and consciousness] are actually inseparable and interwoven, just as in the computer game the player and the screen are united by participation in common loops. In this view, mind and matter are two aspects of one whole and no more separable than are form and content. "Deep down the consciousness of mankind is one. This is a virtual certainty because even in the vacuum matter is one; and if we don't see this, it's because we are blinding ourselves to it."

We don't know what a quark or electron "really" looks like, but we recognize their effect and theoretical requirement to exist. It is quite possible that one day a mathematics will be developed to consistently describe organized consciousness and its interaction with the environment.
 
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  • #52
invalid said:
It really is as simple as thinking of it as your fundamental will or consciousness telling (or perhaps asking) the bricks to break. They respond because at the core, brick is pure consciousness, just like everything else in the universe. How easy or difficult it is depends on the ability of the martial artist to focus their will. As an addition, pure physical strength and adrenaline can be heightened/increased by the will. Martial artists come from a physical state of mind, with will/focus as secondary. A true master does not even need to strike the bricks to make them break. You may roll your eyes and call it magic but it is not. It is simply an individual interacting with the universe at an incredibly fundamental level. Striking the brick and using rituals simply aids in focus/expression of will.
:rofl: What complete nonsense! I take it you are neither a martial artist nor a physicist.
 
  • #53
A true master does not even need to strike the bricks to make them break.
Maybe that works in Star Wars, but I've yet to see any evidence of this in real life.

Personally, I think it's bio-physics, as prevoiusly mentioned. For example, tennis players don't seem to play their best on the first day of a tournament, but do seem to get dialed in after playing for several days. Part of this is the fatigue factor, which may help them to relax physically and mentally.
 
  • #54
If anyone intends to make claims not due to direct personal experience, we will need a source that offers evidence. Accounts of personal experiences are welcome but they can never be used as scientific evidence.

If anyone has evidence from a reputable source showing that a master can break a brick with his mind, please post it. If true, this would be repeatable and proof should be no problem. Otherwise such claims will not be considered as credible, nor will they be part of any discussion in this forum.

Note also that our grandmaster in Kung Fu made no such claims.
 
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  • #55
It has been suggested that Mr. Lacy is not what he say he is.

There are all sorts of accusation on the net, but I haven't seen anything beyond rumor and gossip. On the flip side, I have found quite a few interviews with Lacy in martial arts magazines, such as here:
http://www.blackbeltmag.com/print_doc.cfm?doc_id=138 [Broken]

If anyone has credible information that Lacy is a fraud, then please sent it to me by PM and I will delete Mr. Lacy's contributions. However S&D is not a place for hen-pecking and internet rumors. At this point I find it more likely that Mr. Lacy's religious views have set him up as a target for the hate mob.

It would also be nice if we tried something new and stay on-topic.
 
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  • #56
Generally, Chi was originally sort of a catch-all term that was used to explain any "unknown causative mechanism", in the ancient days. So momentum, lightning, the effects of oxygen, blood sugar, hereditary characteristics, you name it, all got lumped in as chi. Then there are body characteristics that also got explained as "chi". Some of them are pretty cute mechanisms/skills like mentally shifting force origins and directions... that's one of the "chi" skills. Another one has to do with coordinating and conditioning the fascia-related structures in the body... this is where they get the saying that "the power comes from the sinews, not from the muscle and bone."

But enough of that... I found this forum during a Google search and I wanted to ask someone if they know the answer to whether a retracted punch, assuming the same initial momentum, accelerations, an inelastic collision, etc., transfers more power than a straight-in punch. Can the retraction shift the Impulse enough to give an appreciable increase? Is there a better transfer of momentum affecting the results? Any ideas? Someone got any software that this problem would plug into? I'll trade some "chi" info for a little help. ;)

All the

Mike Sigman
 
  • #57
whether a retracted punch, assuming the same initial momentum, accelerations, an inelastic collision, etc., transfers more power than a straight-in punch
No, but if you pull your arm back quickly into a defensive position, you're more likely to block any counter punch. Ever see a boxer retract on a hook, one of the more powerful punches? Twisting your fist during contact when striking a soft tissue area may do more damage.
 
  • #58
http://www.iay.org.uk/internal-strength/related/interview.htm
 
  • #59
Mike Sigman said:
But enough of that... I found this forum during a Google search and I wanted to ask someone if they know the answer to whether a retracted punch, assuming the same initial momentum, accelerations, an inelastic collision, etc., transfers more power than a straight-in punch. Can the retraction shift the Impulse enough to give an appreciable increase? Is there a better transfer of momentum affecting the results? Any ideas? Someone got any software that this problem would plug into? I'll trade some "chi" info for a little help. ;)

All the

Mike Sigman

The force acting on the target at any moment is the negative rate of change of momentum of the punch, but only to the extent that you're not applying another force to reverse the motion. Since you apply the force to retract the punch, I don't see how the shorter acceleration period would translate directly to additional force acting on the target.

However, I don't see that we can rule out complex body mechanics that would yield a more effective punch when properly retracted, but for more obscure reasons.
 
  • #60
Before people understood electricity as a natural phenomena it's effects were attributed to god/s, spirits, demons etc.
When a way of measuring and understanding the laws becomes common-place, the mysterious becomes the mundane.
(I saw a programme a no. of years ago purporting that the Arc of the
Covenant had it's origins in Egypt and was built using skills that were available
at that time, even if not understood. It was essentially a charge capacitor and charge was built to such levels as to kill on touch... thus, the hand of God struck the defiler. Only the initiates...the holy ones could
open the box unscathed... Knowledge is power?!
In the Name of the Gods -the mystery of resonance and the prehistoric messiah. David Elkington has much to say about the subject of archeoacoustics... a subject which is gaining increasing interest.
And if the frequency of 110 hz does dampen the left-logic side of the brain
I'm not surprised if dancing and chanting and perhaps the use of certain subtances induces visions etc. in people.
In ancient times these would have been seen as sacred rituals with Shamans and visions of spirits etc.
Now it seems to be what passes for youth initiation /or a regular night's entertainment in Ibiza...these being essentially the same thing.
Since everything is ultimately energy the question is just how much conscious or unconscious control can we/anyone effect over it?!
We understand lifting a teacup with our hand or kicking a ball with a foot because these activites take place on the same energy plane.
Before nuclear physics was understood/ or e=mc2 who would have believed in the atom bomb. To suggest that one could generate so much energy and blow-up so much with so little ...you'd be laughed off the face of the earth/
How many dimensions are there is our universe....11 according to brane theory?! How does energy moved/flow/bond/build exert influence on one level or another?! I don't think we know enough!
I don't think that we have the instruments/means to measure what it is we seek to define about Chi/Qi/Ki if indeed we can control and predict?!
While I have never seen a ghost or poltergist or encountered anything
supernatural or alien...although I often wished I did...it is often stated that poltergist activity occurs around a repressed troubled adolescent and the activity abates as the adolescent matures or sooner if the troubled youth is able to find a means to resolve their inner turmoil.
Is this evidence if Chi/Qi.Ki ?!
Now if these poltergist events are real...the activity could be seen as a result of uncontrolled Chi/Qi/Ki?!
These events could be viewed as a sudden release of energy -a release of frustration like snapping or blowing-up- but vented onto a plane that we
don't yet fully understand. None of this activity is ever reported as conscious and rarely perceived by the teenager as related to them.

My own youth had some incidents which I cannot explain by conventional means ...( but as I said no poltergists etc.) expect Chi or maybe I was
accidently tapping into my biological " strength of desperation" ?!

When running late and very much wanting to be somewhere else I accidently pulled the door of a train station; I can still vividly remember the look of shock and almost terror on the ticket collectors' face as he sat still in his cubicle. I hadn't realized it was a sliding door and had simply pulled it open. I can honestly say that I didn't feel that I pulled it particularily hard nor felt it come off in my hand . I saw only that the space infront of me did not open in the manner to which I had expected it to and my passage through it was now hindered as I had the door in my hand and therefore had to put it down inorder to pass through, yet I hadn't felt the weight of it in my hand...it was simply an obstactle to my passage.
Around this time generally, I noticed several occasions when glass shattered or broke simply when I touched it. The degree to which it shattered was in direct relation to the degree of my inner frustration at the time.(Co-incidence ?).
The strangest was when someone to whom I was deeply attached slighted me and as they turned away from me and picked up a large sheet of glass ( connected to the work we were doing at the time).
I felt an odd sensation.. you know the feeling you get when you go over a bump and your stomach leaps up your throat.. this was similar but it began deep in my belly and whoosed-up...and just as it reached throat level at the point where I should speak...
... the glass shattered into absolute smitherines and I really mean absolute smitherines...just a myriad shards... expect for two pieces which he held in his hands.
The glass in his hands and for about a centimetre around/ beyond his touch remained intact?
And one other thing which is trivial and ordinary but yet impossible and has always left me thinking of the Uncertainy principle.
While wearing a vest and pop-studded wrangler shirt, I was dancing one night with friends and getting very hot. I felt self-conscious and reluctant
to remove my shirt...at one point I got so into the dancing I just lost awareness of the hall and everyone in it (only a few halves of larger)
and only realized this when the music stopped ...it had been a kind of
sublime experience and through it I had felt an intense gut desire/ frustration to take my shirt off and be cool.
When the music stopped my shirt was still poppered fast but I felt something bunch at my waist...my immediate thought was " oh I've ripped my vest"! I thought that somehow I must have torn the top strap bits.
When I examined it it was completely intact and I had to take off my shirt inorder to put it back on again.
My first reaction had been to show a mate because I knew that I was looking at something impossible and I wanted a witness because ofcourse no-one would believe me...but it's a rather mundane tale and I've never bothered to tell it much or at all since that time.
However I know that it did happen, and I know that what happened is impossible according to the accepted understanding of how our our world works.
Our understanding is therefore deficit... it is the anomolies of life that point to the deeper truths. ( Nothing new there).
Could I duplicate the results?!
I didn't create the circumstances nor did I attempt to do anything extra-ordinary.
If the circumstances could be replicated perhaps similar events would occur ?!
Yet I also suspect my relative immaturity may also have been an important factor.
The mature mind controls our energies ....this reaches into the realms of prayer. etc...the conscious mind directing energy to effect...
i.e. healing etc.
Do we not stand in our ignorance of these subtle energy fields like the ancients before their Gods/gods. i.e. there are the believers and detractors but what is real...?!
As yet we have no real way of substantiating anything.
Debate on the subject could carry on forever... personally I'd rather energy spent on investigation... if only we could devise ways to study effects and thus have measure of proof;
who knows just what fascinating secrets our universe might yet divulge?!
 
  • #61
So how do you explain some things like Aikido, like when the grand master's arms couldn't be bent?

I'm sure he has a good grasp of body mechanics and human nature always tries to romanticise things but sometime even with my most critical switches on, I can't really think of a rational explanation...
 
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  • #62
Grev said:
So how do you explain some things like Aikido, like when the grand master's arms couldn't be bent?
Depends on who is trying to do the bending. As I previously posted, invite your grandmaster into the octagon with one of the top heavyweight UFC fighters. The grandmaster would be quickly dispatched. In the case of a arm bar, the grandmasters arm would get bent or broke if he didn't tap out. The difference here is that the UFC fighters train daily, conditining, how to take a punch, and all forms of martial arts. The results is a highly skilled, and quick martial artist, who is extremely strong.
 
  • #63
I don't see what we gain by arguing that a highly trained martial artist can subdue a highly trained [but likely much smaller] martial artist. What you seem to be saying is that UFC fighting is the latest evolution in the martial arts.
 
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  • #64
Ivan Seeking said:
I don't see what we gain by arguing that a highly trained martial artist can subdue a highly trained [but likely much smaller] martial artist. What you seem to be saying is that UFC fighting is the latest evolution in the martial arts.
Ok, pick a UFC fighter of the same weight as the aikido grand master, the outcome will still be the same. The claim that an aikido grandmaster arms can't be bent is science fiction to me, similar to claims by many grandmasters that they can't be thrown or even moved. I feel that these type of claims do harm to the world of martial arts.

What I like about the UFC is that it doesn't really on the tradition of one particular style, but has mixed various types of martial arts, and through process of elimination for what works in the ring, does represent an evolution in the martial arts.

As I previously posted, I've never seen any evidence in the octagon of an all powerful 2 inch punch, a fighter that couldn't be thown or have his arms bent (even the wrong way as in an arm bar hold).
 
  • #65
Grev said:
So how do you explain some things like Aikido, like when the grand master's arms couldn't be bent?

I'm sure he has a good grasp of body mechanics and human nature always tries to romanticise things but sometime even with my most critical switches on, I can't really think of a rational explanation...
We call them "Aikido party tricks." I'll be more than happy to demonstrate them any day. You are falling into the mysticism trap of martial arts.
 
  • #66
FredGarvin said:
We call them "Aikido party tricks." I'll be more than happy to demonstrate them any day. You are falling into the mysticism trap of martial arts.
Trust me, I'm not, I was just asking the question on how you guys would define it as skeptics.

After all, I don't trust anybody and I trust everybody. If you know what I mean.
 
  • #67
Fred, perhaps you can explain how they work?
 
  • #68
I can't explain all of them, but some of the more popular ones I can.

One of the standard tricks involves two people standing, facing each other. One person puts their arms out and places their hands on the others' shoulders. The other person brings their hands up from underneath and wraps their hands around the elbow joint. The idea is that the person should be able to make the extended arms bend quite easily by pulling down.

The first try, usually, the person can not support the load and their arms bend. The next time they are told to relax, channel their ki and to picture their arms as rigid, steel rods. The next attempt, the person can't bend the arms or they can support much more weight.

The gist is that a couple of things happen here. 1) Most people, naturally, will concentrate on a very specific muscle group when trying to hold the weight up. Most people will immediately, either conciously or unconsciously, try to support the weight of the person with their biceps. When one relaxes, the load is moved to more muscle groupls, especially the triceps, as well as the shoulder joint. 2) Most people do not have any idea as to their capability is in this situation. It is easy to set the person up to automatically think that they will not be able to succeed in supporting the weight. They are set up to fail without the "magic power" knowledge.

That was the explanation I was given in the day when it was showed to me. It's a neat trick, but it's not the result of channeling or fucusing one's ki, which is what many want you to think. I will say that this demonstration did drive home a functional lesson in Aikido. One of the basic aspects is the use as much of the opponent's energy and as little of your own as you can. One does this by relaxing and not using energy to overly tense muscles during a movement. This shows that you can expend an incredible amount of energy and be worse off than if you were to relax.

EDIT: I just found this while doing a quick search: http://ofinterest.net/UA/ [Broken]
I think it says essentially the same things.
 
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  • #69
[MEDIA=youtube]Hs8mblcgTsk[/MEDIA]&search=dim%20mak[/URL]
Is this really a demonstration of "chi", or is this more of a set up?
(I believe this is more of a set up)
 
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  • #70
bomba923 said:
[MEDIA=youtube]Hs8mblcgTsk[/MEDIA]&search=dim%20mak[/URL]
(I believe this is more of a set up)[/QUOTE]

There is certainly nothing to suggest otherwise. In order to have any significance we would need medical experts and independant witnesses that can verify the claim. What's more, this is easily repeated so there is no reason for any question to remain. This is pretty much a dead give-away: If it could be done any day of the week in any physics lab at any major university, we should all know it to be a fact.
 
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<h2>1. What is Chi?</h2><p>Chi, also known as Qi, is a concept in Chinese philosophy that refers to the vital energy or life force that flows through all living beings and the universe. It is believed to be the fundamental force that governs the functioning of the human body and the universe.</p><h2>2. Is Chi scientifically proven?</h2><p>There is no scientific evidence to support the existence of Chi as a tangible energy or force. However, the concept of Chi plays a significant role in traditional Chinese medicine and martial arts, and many people believe in its existence based on personal experiences and cultural beliefs.</p><h2>3. Can Chi be measured or quantified?</h2><p>Since Chi is not a scientifically proven concept, it cannot be measured or quantified using standard scientific methods. However, some studies have attempted to measure the effects of practices like acupuncture and Tai Chi, which are based on the concept of Chi, on the body's physiological processes.</p><h2>4. How is Chi related to the human body?</h2><p>In Chinese philosophy, Chi is believed to flow through channels or meridians in the body, influencing the functioning of organs and bodily systems. It is also associated with the balance and harmony of the mind, body, and spirit. Practices like acupuncture and Tai Chi aim to regulate the flow of Chi in the body to promote health and well-being.</p><h2>5. Is Chi the same as other energy concepts like prana or ki?</h2><p>Chi, prana, and ki are all concepts related to vital energy or life force in different cultures and belief systems. While they may share some similarities, they are not interchangeable, and their specific meanings and applications may vary. It is important to understand the cultural and philosophical context of each concept before making any comparisons or assumptions.</p>

1. What is Chi?

Chi, also known as Qi, is a concept in Chinese philosophy that refers to the vital energy or life force that flows through all living beings and the universe. It is believed to be the fundamental force that governs the functioning of the human body and the universe.

2. Is Chi scientifically proven?

There is no scientific evidence to support the existence of Chi as a tangible energy or force. However, the concept of Chi plays a significant role in traditional Chinese medicine and martial arts, and many people believe in its existence based on personal experiences and cultural beliefs.

3. Can Chi be measured or quantified?

Since Chi is not a scientifically proven concept, it cannot be measured or quantified using standard scientific methods. However, some studies have attempted to measure the effects of practices like acupuncture and Tai Chi, which are based on the concept of Chi, on the body's physiological processes.

4. How is Chi related to the human body?

In Chinese philosophy, Chi is believed to flow through channels or meridians in the body, influencing the functioning of organs and bodily systems. It is also associated with the balance and harmony of the mind, body, and spirit. Practices like acupuncture and Tai Chi aim to regulate the flow of Chi in the body to promote health and well-being.

5. Is Chi the same as other energy concepts like prana or ki?

Chi, prana, and ki are all concepts related to vital energy or life force in different cultures and belief systems. While they may share some similarities, they are not interchangeable, and their specific meanings and applications may vary. It is important to understand the cultural and philosophical context of each concept before making any comparisons or assumptions.

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