Nitrogen molecules in air question

In summary, the conversation discusses the concept of lift in airplanes and whether molecular attraction between the wing and air is necessary for flight. The participants suggest that the physical pushing of air by the wing is the main factor in creating lift. The idea of "stickiness" or attraction between the molecules is questioned and dismissed as insignificant in the overall process of flight. The conversation also touches on the concept of emergent phenomena and the relevance of molecular structure in understanding macroscopic events.
  • #1
scumhearted
12
0
hi all. I'm trying to write an article about a molecular perspective on (aircraft) lift. I am guessing nitrogen does most of the lift since it's the most abundent in air. how does a nitrogen molecule stick to a steel molecule (plane's)? is there a short term electronic bond between the two molecules? thanks guys
 
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  • #2
How do you think airplanes fly?
 
  • #3
There a few threads around here about how airplanes fly. I would suggest you read a few of them and then repostulate your initial assumptions on what creates lift. Why do you assume that they atmosphere and the wing has to stay together?
 
  • #4
Since the air is flowing around the wing during flight, perhaps there is very little sticking going on.
 
  • #5
nbo10 said:
There a few threads around here about how airplanes fly. I would suggest you read a few of them and then repostulate your initial assumptions on what creates lift. Why do you assume that they atmosphere and the wing has to stay together?

if they wouldn't stick (which they do) there would be no interaction at all. i know why planes fly on a macroscopic scale. i was looking for a more quantum explanation. btw they stick because of van der walls forces (at a molecular level). that's how energy is trasnfered between the air and the wing. no molecule knows of each other
 
  • #6
scumhearted,

im guessing nitrogen does most of the lift since it's the most abundent in air. how does a nitrogen molecule stick to a steel molecule (plane's)? is there a short term electronic bond between the two molecules?

An airplane does not require molecular attraction of its wing with a gas to fly. Compared with the forces required lift the airplane, molecular attractions are insignificant.

if they wouldn't stick (which they do) there would be no interaction at all.

There doesn't have to be any attraction. An airplane's wing physically pushes air down so that according to Newton's third law of mass, the reaction force pushes the plane up in the opposite direction. Where did you get the idea of a "stickyness" or attraction of the air to the wing?

that's how energy is trasnfered between the air and the wing. no molecule knows of each other

Energy is transferred between the fuel and the engine and the airframe. Any energy used to push the air around is wasted as far as transporting the airplane is concerned.

Ratch

P.S. In English, first words of sentences are capitalized. That makes sentences much easier to read.
 
  • #7
Ratch said:
scumhearted,



An airplane does not require molecular attraction of its wing with a gas to fly. Compared with the forces required lift the airplane, molecular attractions are insignificant.



There doesn't have to be any attraction. An airplane's wing physically pushes air down so that according to Newton's third law of mass, the reaction force pushes the plane up in the opposite direction. Where did you get the idea of a "stickyness" or attraction of the air to the wing?



Energy is transferred between the fuel and the engine and the airframe. Any energy used to push the air around is wasted as far as transporting the airplane is concerned.

Ratch

P.S. In English, first words of sentences are capitalized. That makes sentences much easier to read.


Thanks a lot! Cheers!
 
  • #8
Ratch said:
scumhearted,



An airplane does not require molecular attraction of its wing with a gas to fly. Compared with the forces required lift the airplane, molecular attractions are insignificant.



There doesn't have to be any attraction. An airplane's wing physically pushes air down so that according to Newton's third law of mass, the reaction force pushes the plane up in the opposite direction. Where did you get the idea of a "stickyness" or attraction of the air to the wing?



Energy is transferred between the fuel and the engine and the airframe. Any energy used to push the air around is wasted as far as transporting the airplane is concerned.

Ratch

P.S. In English, first words of sentences are capitalized. That makes sentences much easier to read.

btw i was reffering to the coanda effect (for the stickiness)
 
  • #9
Ratch said:
scumhearted,



An airplane does not require molecular attraction of its wing with a gas to fly. Compared with the forces required lift the airplane, molecular attractions are insignificant.



There doesn't have to be any attraction. An airplane's wing physically pushes air down so that according to Newton's third law of mass, the reaction force pushes the plane up in the opposite direction. Where did you get the idea of a "stickyness" or attraction of the air to the wing?



Energy is transferred between the fuel and the engine and the airframe. Any energy used to push the air around is wasted as far as transporting the airplane is concerned.

Ratch

P.S. In English, first words of sentences are capitalized. That makes sentences much easier to read.


also, you can't deny the molecular structure of things. just because we live day to day on a macroscopic world, and base our lives on it, you can't deny the fundamentals of everything
 
  • #10
scumhearted said:
also, you can't deny the molecular structure of things. just because we live day to day on a macroscopic world, and base our lives on it, you can't deny the fundamentals of everything

Er... this is empty talk.

No one is denying anything here. The question here is whether it is RELEVANT or not to the phenomenon! I'm sure when you do your many calculations, you ignore the gravitational field from Alpha Centauri, don't you? Do you think leaving out such a thing affects the accuracy of many of the things you do or calculate?

Do not go into this line of discussion until you have done a considerable reading on "emergent phenomena".

Zz.
 
  • #11
ZapperZ said:
Er... this is empty talk.

No one is denying anything here. The question here is whether it is RELEVANT or not to the phenomenon! I'm sure when you do your many calculations, you ignore the gravitational field from Alpha Centauri, don't you? Do you think leaving out such a thing affects the accuracy of many of the things you do or calculate?

Do not go into this line of discussion until you have done a considerable reading on "emergent phenomena".

Zz.

yes it is relevant. it's related to the boundary layer and that is related to the stall limit. and that is related to the plane crashing
 
  • #12
scumhearted said:
yes it is relevant. it's related to the boundary layer and that is related to the stall limit. and that is related to the plane crashing

Can you please produce a valid reference to back it up?

Zz.
 
  • #13
Nope. It's wrong. The Coanda effect is an aerodynamic phenomena, not a chemical phenomena.
 
  • #14
Molecular effects are responsible for the Prandl layer aka as no slip condition I suppose. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No-slip_condition Exactly how it works is not important, maybe it's van der Waals, surface roughness, general adhesion, ... relative flow will be very close to zero on the first few layers of molecules. It doesn't really matter if it is not perfectly zero. Changing the surface material of an air plane by coating does not have an effect on flight characteristics afaik. Also the gas doesn't matter. All surfaces make all gases flow slow enough to be approximated by zero relative velocity.
 
  • #15
scumhearted said:
I was referring to the coanda effect.
One way of looking at this is "void abhorence" effect. As air flows around a convex surface, what would otherwise be a void near the surface is filled in by the air (else a near zero pressure void would be formed). If the flow is laminar or only mildly turbulent, the air flow tends to follow the curved surface. In a heavily stalled state, what would be a "void" could be filled with one very large vortice.

Viscosity is also a factor. If visocity is near zero, then adjacent streams of different speeds can flow by each other with almost no interaction, so the "void" could be filled with a stagnant very low visocity gas with almost no movment of that gas, and the stagnant gas would behave as if it were part of the airfoil.
 

1. What is the role of nitrogen molecules in air?

Nitrogen molecules make up about 78% of the Earth's atmosphere and play a crucial role in maintaining the balance of gases that support life on our planet. They act as a buffer to prevent rapid changes in oxygen levels and also serve as a key component in the production of proteins and DNA.

2. How do nitrogen molecules contribute to the greenhouse effect?

While nitrogen molecules do not directly contribute to the greenhouse effect, they do play a role in it. When nitrogen is released into the atmosphere through activities like burning fossil fuels, it can react with oxygen to form nitrogen oxides, which are potent greenhouse gases. These gases trap heat in the atmosphere, contributing to the warming of the Earth.

3. Can nitrogen molecules be harmful to humans?

In their elemental form, nitrogen molecules are not harmful to humans. However, when combined with other elements, such as oxygen, they can form compounds that can be harmful. For example, nitrogen oxides can contribute to air pollution and respiratory issues. Nitrogen gas can also displace oxygen and lead to asphyxiation in enclosed spaces.

4. How are nitrogen molecules essential for plant growth?

Nitrogen is a key nutrient for plant growth and is essential for the production of chlorophyll, which is necessary for photosynthesis. Plants absorb nitrogen from the soil in the form of nitrates and use it to build proteins and other essential molecules. The nitrogen cycle ensures a continuous supply of this nutrient for plant growth.

5. Can nitrogen molecules be found in other forms besides gas?

Yes, nitrogen can exist in various forms, including liquid and solid. Liquid nitrogen is commonly used in industrial and medical applications, while solid nitrogen can be found in the form of ice in extremely cold environments. Nitrogen can also be found in compounds such as ammonia, which is used in fertilizers and household cleaning products.

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