Is Polygamy a Crime in Canada?

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In summary, the passing of California Proposition 8 in 2008 has sparked a significant amount of controversy and tension in the state, with heated debates and demonstrations from both sides. The proposition, which aimed to ban same-sex marriage, has been met with resistance and backlash from the LGBTQ+ community and their allies. Some have suggested a compromise where all unions between two people
  • #71
Math Is Hard said:
It's not just the Mormons. There's a lot of unhappiness with the black and hispanic voters on this issue:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/06/AR2008110603880.html


As one of our radio commentators put it, "They came for Obama, they stayed for Prop 8."

I see that. But I also think its a lot of Mormon money. I think the choice of sites suggests the protesters know that too.

What a shame the Mormons didn't put that money they put into Prop 8 to help in the community instead.
 
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  • #73
I think the Mormon church pulled something shady here. They didn't directly put money into the "Yes on prop 8" commercials, but they (allegedly) influenced their church members to finance those ads. There's a big outcry from the protesters that the Mormon church should be taxed over this issue. I am not sure how those rules work, or if anyone can prove that this is what happened.

I can tell you for sure that there was a bombardment of those ads (with flimsy hyped-up scare tactics) whoever was financing them.
 
  • #74
Math Is Hard said:
It's not just the Mormons. There's a lot of unhappiness with the black and hispanic voters on this issue:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/11/06/AR2008110603880.html


As one of our radio commentators put it, "They came for Obama, they stayed for Prop 8."

That's so crazy. Ever since I heard that Proposition 8 passed, I've been trying to imagine what the Californians who voted for it would be like. I'm from the East Coast and I've traveled to the West Coast a lot but never lived there, so my concept of the average Californian is a complete stereotype - it was just a question mark in my head, no idea who a Prop 8 voter would be. I guess it's blacks and latinos and Mormons.

In the Washington Post piece it quoted one guy as saying, "The gay community was never considered a third of a person." My immediate reaction is, no disrespect for the civil rights challenges of the black community, but you've never been considered a third of a person yourself, buddy.

You know what this reminds me of? The early Roman Christians, having been persecuted under the Romans and crucified and fed to lions and all that, once they found themselves in charge of the Roman Empire went straight to persecuting everyone else, even other Christians like the Donatists and the Arians.

The Mormons, btw, have faced quite a lot of persecution too during the last 200 years. But they obviously can give as good as they get.
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  • #75
CaptainQuasar said:
That's so crazy. Ever since I heard that Proposition 8 passed, I've been trying to imagine what the Californians who voted for it would be like. I'm from the East Coast and I've traveled to the West Coast a lot but never lived there, so my concept of the average Californian is a complete stereotype - it was just a question mark in my head, no idea who a Prop 8 voter would be. I guess it's blacks and latinos and Mormons.

Its something that I guess not many people realize. Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, ect., all tend to be religious and/or have 'traditional values'. And people only really pay attention to racist/bigoted white people so the minorities more or less get free rein to be as bigoted as they like. It's only recently become a news item around here that there are heavy racial tensions in certain areas between blacks and hispanics. Also consider the extremely large number of mexican epithets for homosexuals.
 
  • #77
I think the point of this proposition was that if you wag your finger and say 'No' a whole lot, that they may stop.
 
  • #78
TheStatutoryApe said:
Its something that I guess not many people realize. Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, ect., all tend to be religious and/or have 'traditional values'. And people only really pay attention to racist/bigoted white people so the minorities more or less get free rein to be as bigoted as they like. It's only recently become a news item around here that there are heavy racial tensions in certain areas between blacks and hispanics. Also consider the extremely large number of mexican epithets for homosexuals.

What do you mean by 'not many people realize'? About 16.9% of people don't realize? (Religious Affiliations)

About 83.1% of Americans belong to a religion - regardless of race. Breaking down the 16.1% further (0.8% refused to answer the survey), 4% are atheists or agnostic. 12.1% don't belong to a religion, but are not atheist or agnostic.

I don't know what percentage of Californians belong to a religion, but I doubt 47.5% don't belong to a religion.

I'm not sure you can tie a 52% to 47.5% vote to a 83.1% to 16.1% distribution of 'religious' people. You would have to go a couple steps further to identify particular religions that are completely intolerant of gays and how ardent the religion's followers are. Face it, quite a few folks go to church because they've gone to church their whole lives and don't put a lot of thought into whether their personal views match their religion's views.
 
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  • #79
CaptainQuasar said:
That's so crazy. Ever since I heard that Proposition 8 passed, I've been trying to imagine what the Californians who voted for it would be like. I'm from the East Coast and I've traveled to the West Coast a lot but never lived there, so my concept of the average Californian is a complete stereotype - it was just a question mark in my head, no idea who a Prop 8 voter would be. I guess it's blacks and latinos and Mormons.

California is a very big state, and once you leave the coastal cities, it's largely rural. There is no shortage of conservative white people, even in the cities (see Orange County and San Diego). This is the state that gave us Nixon and Reagan, remember, and which currently has a Republican governor.

That said, California conservatism usually has less to do with the culture wars and more to do with fiscal and foreign policy issues. You don't see a lot of churchgoers getting worked up about abortion or heavy metal, for the most part. Which does suggest that it was other demographics driving this result...
 
  • #80
Math Is Hard said:
I think the Mormon church pulled something shady here. They didn't directly put money into the "Yes on prop 8" commercials, but they (allegedly) influenced their church members to finance those ads. There's a big outcry from the protesters that the Mormon church should be taxed over this issue. I am not sure how those rules work, or if anyone can prove that this is what happened.

Yeah, the LDS itself didn't donate money, as political lobbying (particularly across state lines) would violate its status as a tax-exempt, apolitical religious organization. Instead, they simply instructed their members to donate heavily, and set up clearing houses for the donations. A very large portion of the budget for Yes on 8 came from Mormons, mostly out of state. Various prominent Mormon businessmen inside CA were contacted and urged to participate, including one gay Mormon in CA who got angry and instead donated to the No on 8 campaign.

But, yeah, if they're going to dedicate their substantial organizational and funding capabilities to affecting political outcomes in my state, they should not get any tax breaks for being "apolitical."
 
  • #81
quadraphonics said:
gay Mormon

How does a gay person believe in Mormonism?
 
  • #82
BobG said:
About 83.1% of Americans belong to a religion - regardless of race. Breaking down the 16.1% further (0.8% refused to answer the survey), 4% are atheists or agnostic. 12.1% don't belong to a religion, but are not atheist or agnostic.
Actually I've read that realistically it's more like 21% of Americans are atheist/agnostic, the majority of those numbers prefering to sit on the agnostic "fence". I can't find the study, but what they were saying basically is that many people won't admit to being agnostic or atheist in a public poll. I would tend to agree that the percentage is much higher than polls suggest. Many people lie about how often they go to church as well. :tongue:

My dad was an atheist, but no one outside of my mother and my siblings knew, not even my dad's siblings knew. I also know a number of agnostics that attend church services occasionally, either for family or friends or just for sentimental reasons. An atheist friend of mine attends traditional Catholic Christmas mass because he likes it, and he wasn't raised Catholic.
 
  • #83
NeoDevin said:
How does a gay person believe in Mormonism?

The same way a straight Mormon does, I suppose...

Seriously, though, there are more gay Mormons/Catholics/etc. than people seem to realize. Just because they teach that you're evil and work to oppress people like you doesn't mean that you weren't born into that religion, or that your family isn't committed to it, etc. Probably they believe that the teachings pertaining to homosexuality are wrong and will eventually be reconsidered, but in most cases I suspect that it's a simple matter of weighing the costs of staying in the church (living with some annoying sermons about homosexuality) vs the costs of leaving (isolation from one's family, going to hell, etc.)
 
  • #84
quadraphonics said:
The same way a straight Mormon does, I suppose...

Seriously, though, there are more gay Mormons/Catholics/etc. than people seem to realize. Just because they teach that you're evil and work to oppress people like you doesn't mean that you weren't born into that religion, or that your family isn't committed to it, etc. Probably they believe that the teachings pertaining to homosexuality are wrong and will eventually be reconsidered, but in most cases I suspect that it's a simple matter of weighing the costs of staying in the church (living with some annoying sermons about homosexuality) vs the costs of leaving (isolation from one's family, going to hell, etc.)
True, how many devoutly religious people commit adultery and a whole range of other "sins" according to their religion?
 
  • #85
NeoDevin said:
How does a gay person believe in Mormonism?

Without making any judgements for or against religion, or homosexuality...

One has nothing to do with the other. Most Christians believe that homosexuality is a sin, but they also believe that we are all sinners. In fact, the fallibility of all humans is essential to the concept of salvation.

By definition, even the most rigid Christians should welcome gays into their churches with open arms.
 
  • #86
Evo said:
True, how many devoutly religious people commit adultery and a whole range of other "sins" according to their religion?
Or how many catholic couples use contraception?
 
  • #87
No one can live entirely according to the teachings of a church or religion. According to Christian beliefs, only Jesus was perfect. The rest of us can only strive to be better than we are today.
 
  • #88
Ivan Seeking said:
No one can live entirely according to the teachings of a church or religion.
You can alsways pick a church with lower standards. the FSM is pretty easy to get along with. Among brand name churches sihkism is pretty low on no-fun rules.

According to Christian beliefs, only Jesus was perfect.
Ironic that the perfect catholic was Jewish.
 
  • #89
mgb_phys said:
You can alsways pick a church with lower standards. the FSM is pretty easy to get along with. Among brand name churches sihkism is pretty low on no-fun rules.

:rofl: I suppose so. Ultimately people do choose their church based on their own feelings, beliefs, and interpretation of the Bible.

Ironic that the perfect catholic was Jewish.

Ironic? That is an essential aspect of the story. In fact, the Catholics believe that the apostle Peter, believed to be the first Pope, was given his authority directly by Jesus.
 
  • #90
I meant ironic because of a certain amount of unchristian behaviour between the church of Rome and Jesus's co-religionists over the last couple of millenia.
 
  • #91
As long as there are people paying there will be a church for anyone.
 
  • #92
I do think it's a bit unfair to blame religion for homophobia - these people don't like gays and say so in church and at the ballot box. I'm not sure it's really god's fault.

To quote the famous Jewish philosopher Brooks in his seminal work Blazing Saddles.
"You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons."
 
  • #93
quadraphonics said:
The same way a straight Mormon does, I suppose...

Seriously, though, there are more gay Mormons/Catholics/etc. than people seem to realize. Just because they teach that you're evil and work to oppress people like you doesn't mean that you weren't born into that religion, or that your family isn't committed to it, etc. Probably they believe that the teachings pertaining to homosexuality are wrong and will eventually be reconsidered, but in most cases I suspect that it's a simple matter of weighing the costs of staying in the church (living with some annoying sermons about homosexuality) vs the costs of leaving (isolation from one's family, going to hell, etc.)

Not only that but there are probably lots of them who simply believe in everything except the homosexuality part. Just like most Christians don't consider themselves bound by many of the mitzvahs of Judaism.

To provide a larger example, take a look at things like Wiccanism and Neo-paganism. For many people those are complete make-your-own-religions, they pick through historical and quasi-historical information like they're at a dinner buffet, choosing whatever they think is nifty and leaving out anything they turn up their nose at. (I won't conceal it, I have almost no respect whatsoever for people who approach religion that way and then insist on others taking their "faith" seriously as though they're rock-solid, deeply held beliefs.)

So I can definitely buy people trimming or otherwise slightly modifying the faith they grew up with in the light of strong personal convictions they've arrived at in adult life. The puritanical sexuality element that is often part of Christianity in this era was a fairly late comer, mostly introduced by St. Augustine four centuries after Christ.
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  • #94
I did think it was funny when the pope complained about people's pick and mix attitude to religion - given that christianity started as Judaism Lite.
 
  • #95
mgb_phys said:
I do think it's a bit unfair to blame religion for homophobia -

I'm not blaming religion for homophobia. I'm blaming a religion for encouraging people all over the country to interfere in my state's politics, and then turning around and demanding a tax break (which I end up paying for) because of their "apolitical" nature. I have the distinct impression that they would not react kindly to a California-based religion working to legalize gay marriage in Utah.
 
  • #96
quadraphonics said:
and demanding a tax break (which I end up paying for) because of their "apolitical" nature.
It would be particularly unfair to make mormons pay tax. They aren't allowed coffe - Salt Lake City is like a strange parallel universe without starbucks - there is no way you can work your way through a US tax form without a few expressos.
 
  • #97
mgb_phys said:
It would be particularly unfair to make mormons pay tax. They aren't allowed coffe - Salt Lake City is like a strange parallel universe without starbucks - there is no way you can work your way through a US tax form without a few expressos.

Well, I don't drink coffee, and they still tax me, so... and, anyway, what do you need coffee for if you also don't stay up late or drink?
 
  • #98
BobG said:
What do you mean by 'not many people realize'? About 16.9% of people don't realize?

Sorry, my point wasn't very clear.
I mean that although CA is heavily Democrat and votes in a Democrat for president many of those democrats are really fairly conservative when it comes to many issues. Homosexuality being one of them. Hispanics, who make up a very significant portion of the electorate here, tend to be quite religious, quite intolerant of homosexuals, and also tend to register as democrats.

So while many people may think that its inbred evangelical rednecks and neocons who passed this proposition its simply not true. Most of the local conservative talk radio people are very much against it. "John & Ken" even chastized a woman who called them to tell them how happy she was it passed.

This isn't exactly a party issue.
 
  • #99
TheStatutoryApe said:
Sorry, my point wasn't very clear.
I mean that although CA is heavily Democrat and votes in a Democrat for president many of those democrats are really fairly conservative when it comes to many issues. Homosexuality being one of them. Hispanics, who make up a very significant portion of the electorate here, tend to be quite religious, quite intolerant of homosexuals, and also tend to register as democrats.

So while many people may think that its inbred evangelical rednecks and neocons who passed this proposition its simply not true. Most of the local conservative talk radio people are very much against it. "John & Ken" even chastized a woman who called them to tell them how happy she was it passed.

This isn't exactly a party issue.

Another point is that blacks tended to favor prop 8, so the same blacks whose high turned out helped Obama also contributed to Prop 8.
 
  • #100
Zantra said:
Another point is that blacks tended to favor prop 8, so the same blacks whose high turned out helped Obama also contributed to Prop 8.

I heard about this. 70% of voting blacks voted to ban gay marriage in Cali. So gays protested at a white church. I heard an interview of a black man who said it would be interesting to see them protest at their churches but figures they are going the path of least resistance.
 
  • #101
drankin said:
I heard about this. 70% of voting blacks voted to ban gay marriage in Cali. So gays protested at a white church. I heard an interview of a black man who said it would be interesting to see them protest at their churches but figures they are going the path of least resistance.

But protesting at the Mormon churches is really where the blame lays. By promoting a referendum on gay unions they are the ones that attempted to divide society by making it a question in the first place.

Their self righteous encouragement of this sort of tyranny, a tyranny that seeks to penalize a minority merely for their differences, ironically differences that in California were once denied to blacks up until 1948, is simply antithetical to the fundamental constructs of the Constitution that we all live under. It looks to me like it's their intolerance that has led to this kind of meddling action - attempting to impose their morality on others, not through persuasion or proselytization, but rather by mandate, to deny others fundamental rights that they themselves would choose to enjoy.

As a result if there is any shame in any of this I think a good measure of it should be laid at the feet of these hypocritical Mormons - a sect that historically was itself persecuted and forced on their own westward diaspora by the very kind of intolerance that they are now fomenting toward gays.
 
  • #102
Hmm... McCain wins South Dakota easily and a very reasonable pro-life bill gets trounced. Obama wins California easily and a anti-gay marriage passes... Could the association of the two parties with the "social issues" be a lot more complicated than people think? Could there be a lot of Republicans that are pro-choice and a lot of Democrats who are anti-gay marriage? If so what does that say about politics in the US? Interesting questions...
 
  • #103
lot of Republicans that are pro-choice and a lot of Democrats who are anti-gay marriage?
Definitely - a lot of non-religous people vote Republican for economic prinicples and a lot of democrats are religous, especially in the black and mexican communites.

People also think that there are simple good and bad side guys in every issue.
eg. Gays ae oppressed, that's bad - Blacks are oppressed, that's bad - therefore blacks must support gays M'kay.
 
  • #104
mgb_phys said:
Definitely - a lot of non-religous people vote Republican for economic prinicples and a lot of democrats are religous, especially in the black and mexican communites.

People also think that there are simple good and bad side guys in every issue.
eg. Gays ae oppressed, that's bad - Blacks are oppressed, that's bad - therefore blacks must support gays M'kay.

The harder bridge to cross is that which bridges our differences. I think the only way across is the recognition that there but for the current circumstances might go each of us, and for no good reason other than that we may be different. But that is difficult to keep divorced from whatever biases or prejudices we may harbor. And at times we falter.

In theory the Constitution should backstop such expressions of intolerance and insure that the rights of all are equally preserved. Of course given the more recent packing of the court one can only hope that the 14th Amendment's equal application provisions as opposed to the more confederationist approach favored more recently by the politically conservative, will be the principle that prevails.
 
  • #105
Zantra said:
Another point is that blacks tended to favor prop 8, so the same blacks whose high turned out helped Obama also contributed to Prop 8.

see post #70. :smile:
 

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