Why Does He Stay? Examining a Student's Odd Decision in Bio Class

[Math Is Hard]

We have a young man in our bio class who is in my lab group. He is from a foreign country and seems to understand very little English. He is not able to help us too much with our labs unless we tell him precisely what to do (but he does always offer to help). He received less than 30% on both of our tests so far, and also did very poorly on the term paper, and has flunked all but one of the quizzes. The deadline to withdraw has passed, and I can't figure out why he is sticking with the class.

The teacher called me aside recently and asked me if he was truly participating in the labs because she thinks it's not fair if he gets credit for our work. She mentioned that she noticed that he doesn't seem to know what is going on in class. I responded honestly when I said that I thought he was "trying" because he offers to help and he does things when we ask him to. It was a real quandary for me when I had to give her an answer. He's a nice kid, but he is obviously in way over his head because of the language barrier.

I don't think he'll be able to save himself even with the help of our group lab grades. The only thing I can figure is that staying in the class allows him to continue with a student Visa, possibly. It's very odd. If my grades were that low, I would have bailed ASAP!

 

[QuantumDefect]

I'm sure he knows that he won't make it, but still, the kid has determination!

 

[moose]

What country is he from?

 

[Chi Meson]

For some people, failure is better than quitting.

Edit: That's assuming the best attribute for the guy.

THe other possibiltiy is that he is so incapable that he couldn't even do the paperwork for withdrawing.

 

[zoobyshoe]

The only thing I can figure is that staying in the class allows him to continue with a student Visa, possibly.

I was talking to a woman tonight who said that the student visa was the most common method for non-Mexican illegal aliens to gain entry to the country. He may have some minimum time he needs to stay enrolled before he can sort of disappear from the school and not be checked on. She seemed to know a fair amount about it so I'll ask her why he might be sticking with a class he's failing. My own thought is that it may be the closest he can come to socializing with his language problem.

 

[Moonbear]

It's not uncommon that students who are failing just keep sticking with it. Most that I've seen do that fall into one of a few categories. Some really have never failed anything before, maybe came from a high school where they just coasted without needing to study so never picked up good study skills, so are mostly in shock and just can't accept it, so keep desperately hoping for a miracle on the final exam. Others have outside pressures on their academic choices, like parents who are pushing them to take classes they really aren't prepared for, so just keep going to class to prolong the inevitable of their parents finding out. A last group may realize they are going to fail and will have to retake the course, but keep showing up figuring it'll be that much more they know for next year when they retake it.

The ones who really don't care stop going to class mid-semester.

In this person's case, he may not have been able to drop the course without going below full-time student status, which would have compromised his visa status (for some, financial aid hinges on maintaining a full-time credit load too).

Sometimes an instructor has to take the tough stance of pulling the student aside and showing them that they are past the point of no return, let them know that even if they got an A on the final, they're still not going to pass the course with their current grade, and suggest that even if it's too late to drop the course, they should focus their effort on their remaining courses to get higher grades in those (too often, students start focusing on the class they're failing and start to slip in the classes they were passing, and they really need to focus on getting the highest grade possible in the ones they are passing than wasting time salvaging the one they're already failing...if they can pull another course from a C to a B or a B to an A, it'll do a lot more to offset the appearance of that F on their transcript).

 

[Astronuc]

I agree with Moonbear, and I would add it is pretty much up to the instructor/professor to take this kid aside and find out what's going on. One has to wonder if this kid really knows what's going on.

 

[marlon]

I don't think he'll be able to save himself even with the help of our group lab grades. The only thing I can figure is that staying in the class allows him to continue with a student Visa, possibly. It's very odd. If my grades were that low, I would have bailed ASAP!

I think your reason for why this student is staying is correct. Perhaps he just does not care about school and he is just in there to stay in your country. Also, it is possible that he is just very demotivated because the language barrier is too high, he does not feel well when it comes to making contact to others, he feels very alone ?

Hasn't your teacher had any indepth discussion with this kid ?

marlon

 

[Moonbear]

Hasn't your teacher had any indepth discussion with this kid ?

That concerns me too, that the instructor has gone to other students asking about his participation, but may not be addressing the problem directly to the student in question. I don't feel it's appropriate to discuss another student with his classmates. If she's not sure how much he's participating, then she's not doing a very good job of watching the lab groups while they are working. When I taught labs, it was always clear who was working and who was sitting around goofing off while their group did the work for them.

 

[Math Is Hard]

It seems at one time we asked him why he was taking this class and I think he said his intention was to transfer to a 4-year university ( this is a community college class) but he seems so woefully underprepared in English I can't imagine how he will swing it. In my experience, professors don't typically counsel the students (I've been in classes with as many as 200 students and the teachers don't even know our names), but our class is pretty small and I think the teacher might be getting ready to have a talk with him. I think she said something to me because she was worried that the others in our group might feel uncomfortable and demotivated about him getting a free ride off of our work.

I don't think he has a job, so I assume he has to maintain full-time student status to stay in the country. I think it's possible he might just be obeying his parents' wishes by staying enrolled. I don't want to be too specific about where he is from, but he is an Asian student. Maybe his parents just want him to have the experience of being a college student in America.

 

[DaveC426913]

Maybe his parents just want him to have the experience of being a college student in America.

Well, there's your answer. He's getting his $*#...!#@'ed regularly.

 

[BobG]

I don't think he has a job, so I assume he has to maintain full-time student status to stay in the country. I think it's possible he might just be obeying his parents' wishes by staying enrolled. I don't want to be too specific about where he is from, but he is an Asian student. Maybe his parents just want him to have the experience of being a college student in America.

If he's here on a student visa, not only does he need to stay enrolled to remain in the country, but he probably can't have a job (unless its specified in his visa). It hasn't been completely unheard of for a person to come to the US on a student visa and work under the table until they can marry a US citizen (in fact, I think that's what my soon to be ex-son-in-law did, since they're getting divorced after just three years of marriage).

Of course, the key is to not get kicked out of school for failing too many classes. Flunking out means his visa is terminated. Most likely case is that he'll change to an easier major unless the this is the one killer course he has to get over (General Chemistry seems to be the killer course for a lot of nursing students - in that class, a few of the nursing students would literally break out in tears when they got their tests back, since they were headed for yet a third attempt at passing the class).

 

[Math Is Hard]

Well, there's your answer. He's getting his $*#...!#@'ed regularly.

Wow! Dave! Do you kiss your grandmother with that mouth? :rofl:

 

[arildno]

Well, there's your answer. He's getting his $*#...!#@'ed regularly.

Good for him, that's probably why he hasn't had the time to learn English yet.

 

[Astronuc]

It seems at one time we asked him why he was taking this class and I think he said his intention was to transfer to a 4-year university ( this is a community college class) but he seems so woefully underprepared in English I can't imagine how he will swing it. In my experience, professors don't typically counsel the students (I've been in classes with as many as 200 students and the teachers don't even know our names), but our class is pretty small and I think the teacher might be getting ready to have a talk with him. I think she said something to me because she was worried that the others in our group might feel uncomfortable and demotivated about him getting a free ride off of our work.

If he has trouble in a community college, he won't survive a 4 year college, particularly at upper levels.

I think the teacher is asking MIH as this guys peer to be sure that the student is pulling his weight and not just getting by on other's work.

When I was teaching, I could pretty much tell who was doing work and who tended to copy.

For small classes, I would be relatively easy for a teacher to know each student by mid-semester. If a student had a problem, I would talk to them to see if he (usually) or she (rarely) needed extra help. At a four year university, one usually has an academic advisor, and if a student had a problem, I could go to the advisor (usually with the student's knowledge) and we could arrange a tutor, if I didn't to the tutoring myself.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Of course, the key is to not get kicked out of school for failing too many classes. Flunking out means his visa is terminated.

I didn't know that. I thought that as long as the student is enrolled, everything was hunky dory. He might have a problem, then.

Most likely case is that he'll change to an easier major unless the this is the one killer course he has to get over

This is actually a very simple bio class for non-science majors. Everyone is required to do a science with lab, no matter what their major is, and this is probably one of the easiest ones. The teacher gives loads and loads of extra credit opportunities.

(General Chemistry seems to be the killer course for a lot of nursing students - in that class, a few of the nursing students would literally break out in tears when they got their tests back, since they were headed for yet a third attempt at passing the class).

I took that last fall and there were a lot of pre-nursing people in the class. There was much weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth. Honestly, though, some of those people really, really should not become nurses. They could be very dangerous.

 

[Math Is Hard]

For small classes, I would be relatively easy for a teacher to know each student by mid-semester. If a student had a problem, I would talk to them to see if he (usually) or she (rarely) needed extra help. At a four year university, one usually has an academic advisor, and if a student had a problem, I could go to the advisor (usually with the student's knowledge) and we could arrange a tutor, if I didn't to the tutoring myself.

I wonder if he could find a tutor who speaks his language? That might be helpful for him.

Part of the lab assignment is to read the lab instructions before coming to class in order to prepare for it. I can't figure out if he does not understand the lab assignments or if he is just not reading them. He keeps asking me questions about the procedures we are doing when they are clearly spelled out in the instructions. I get tired of referring him back to the lab instructions. It's disruptive when we are trying to work if I have to stop and explain things. Our labs tend to run late anyway, and this makes them take even longer. (It's a night class and many of us are coming straight from work, so we are tired already). I feel like my patience is growing a little thin, and I am becoming grouchy with him. I really don't like the snappish tone that I am developing.

 

[Mattara]

Just tell him that he is in the way, and if he wants what is best for the group, he will stay silent and not in teh way.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Part of the lab assignment is to read the lab instructions before coming to class in order to prepare for it. I can't figure out if he does not understand the lab assignments or if he is just not reading them. He keeps asking me questions about the procedures we are doing when they are clearly spelled out in the instructions. I get tired of referring him back to the lab instructions. It's disruptive when we are trying to work if I have to stop and explain things. Our labs tend to run late anyway, and this makes them take even longer. (It's a night class and many of us are coming straight from work, so we are tired already). I feel like my patience is growing a little thin, and I am becoming grouchy with him. I really don't like the snappish tone that I am developing.

It's an unreasonable drain on you since you are there as a student trying to grasp the subject yourself. Between this and the other disruptive group you talked about before, I don't think your teacher is really competent.

 

[-Job-]

My interpretation is that this guy is not in there because he wants to, or by his efforts, but because of someone else (parents). Hence, if he fails he doesn't care, so he doesn't care to drop the course either.

 

[Igor_S]

Why doesn't he take lessons in english... if he is willing to learn english, it could obviously help him.

 

[Math Is Hard]

It's an unreasonable drain on you since you are there as a student trying to grasp the subject yourself. Between this and the other disruptive group you talked about before, I don't think your teacher is really competent.

She's actually come down on the disruptive ones a few times since then. She finally got fed up. She's a really good teacher, but in this situation she has to spend a great deal of time just babysitting. It's too bad, really.

My interpretation is that this guy is not in there because he wants to, or by his efforts, but because of someone else (parents). Hence, if he fails he doesn't care, so he doesn't care to drop the course either.

Very likely. But he always shows up for class and he's always on time. It seems like if he didn't give a rat's patoot he wouldn't come to class.

Why doesn't he take lessons in english... if he is willing to learn english, it could obviously help him.

I would assume he is also enrolled in ESL classes at the school. Some of the courses at the school enforce a policy that the student must be eligible for English 1(freshman composition) before they can enroll, but for this bio class it is only "advisory".

 

[BobG]

She's actually come down on the disruptive ones a few times since then. She finally got fed up. She's a really good teacher, but in this situation she has to spend a great deal of time just babysitting. It's too bad, really.

It takes longer for some teachers. One of my courses was the first for a brand new professor. By the second week, the class had split in two. A little over half the class all scrunched as close as possible to the front of the room and the other half sat in the very back of the room. There was a chasm of empty chairs between. It only have taken one glance at the seating arrangement for an observer to see there was a problem.

Even so, the comments, giggling, and other noises from the back were pretty disruptive and the attitude of those in front was beginning to become openly hostile. After students started to complain to the dean, I think pressure from above forced her to be a little more assertive in controlling her class.

 

[Francis M]

If we give him the benefit of the doubt and go under the assumption that he has to take x number of classes to stay here on a student Visa then he's in bind even if he's taking ESL classes. He sounds like he doesn't have the language skills to understand the instructions given to him. If that's the case even in ESL classes he's going to have a hard time passing courses because he's probably not going to learn the language fast enough. At the least ,what he needs is to get a tutor who knows his language to help him through these classes. Somebody help him with the admin folks at the college, there's got to be something that can be done for this fellow other than get cheesed at him and watch him fail due to the language barrier.

 

[zoobyshoe]

It takes longer for some teachers. One of my courses was the first for a brand new professor. By the second week, the class had split in two. A little over half the class all scrunched as close as possible to the front of the room and the other half sat in the very back of the room. There was a chasm of empty chairs between. It only have taken one glance at the seating arrangement for an observer to see there was a problem.

Even so, the comments, giggling, and other noises from the back were pretty disruptive and the attitude of those in front was beginning to become openly hostile. After students started to complain to the dean, I think pressure from above forced her to be a little more assertive in controlling her class.

Yeah. I characterized Math's teacher as "incompetent" but it would have been more accurate and articulate to say "unseasoned".

 

[Moonbear]

If we give him the benefit of the doubt and go under the assumption that he has to take x number of classes to stay here on a student Visa then he's in bind even if he's taking ESL classes. He sounds like he doesn't have the language skills to understand the instructions given to him. If that's the case even in ESL classes he's going to have a hard time passing courses because he's probably not going to learn the language fast enough. At the least ,what he needs is to get a tutor who knows his language to help him through these classes. Somebody help him with the admin folks at the college, there's got to be something that can be done for this fellow other than get cheesed at him and watch him fail due to the language barrier.

Unfortunately, it does happen that students coming from non-English-speaking countries to the US to study wind up not being able to learn the language as quickly as they hoped/expected. I personally think it's a mistake to try to attend college in a country whose language you do not read, understand and speak fluently. College courses are hard enough without a language barrier. Now, some people just have great talent for learning languages, and by being immersed in it for a few months, can become fairly fluent in a short time, so can eventually succeed. Others just struggle far too long, and it's probably better off if they attend a university where classes are taught in a language they understand, or else they will not only not learn a new language, but miss out on learning as much as they can about the other subjects they need to master.

If this person is here on a student visa, he is probably better off in the long run to have just gotten the experience of a new culture, but not continuing to try to complete his education in the US. If he is a US resident and has not yet learned English very well, then it would be better for him to just take ESL classes and not attempt any other college level work until he has improved his English. In the latter case, the temporary delay will be beneficial so that when he does attempt the other subjects, he can get the most out of them.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

The other day we had a new student arrive who is from Japan. When he learned that he was set up in a room with another student from Japan he immediately came to us and requested that he be placed in a room with someone who speaks english because "I am here to learn english". I thought that was a wee bit odd.

 

[zoobyshoe]

The other day we had a new student arrive who is from Japan. When he learned that he was set up in a room with another student from Japan he immediately came to us and requested that he be placed in a room with someone who speaks english because "I am here to learn english". I thought that was a wee bit odd.

I used to know a Japanese guy here who told me most English classes in Japan are taught by Japanese teachers who don't pronounce it anywhere near correctly. The students can end up with fantastic grammar and vocabulary but be completely baffled when confronted by any native English speaker.

The new student you encountered probably wanted to be exposed to correct pronounciation more than anything else.

 

[Math Is Hard]

I used to know a Japanese guy here who told me most English classes in Japan are taught by Japanese teachers who don't pronounce it anywhere near correctly. The students can end up with fantastic grammar and vocabulary but be completely baffled when confronted by any native English speaker.

I am that way with French. On the written tests, I can nail all the grammar mechanics, but still have complete brain farts in conversation. Still, on a multiple choice biology test, I think I could have scored much better than random chance, even in my 2nd language.

I am sure it would be much harder, though, if I were trying to translate a language with a completely different character set and structure.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I am that way with French. On the written tests, I can nail all the grammar mechanics, but still have complete brain farts in conversation.

I can accomplish brain farts in both French conversation and written tests, so I believe that means I win.

 

[Moonbear]

The other day we had a new student arrive who is from Japan. When he learned that he was set up in a room with another student from Japan he immediately came to us and requested that he be placed in a room with someone who speaks english because "I am here to learn english". I thought that was a wee bit odd.

Actually, I think it was very wise of him. Many people would opt for the "comfort" of sharing rooms with someone who speaks the same native language, but he knows he needs to not be tempted by that and to speak English as much as possible to get better at it.

My own experience in learning languages is that you can learn the vocabulary and grammar and to speak fairly quickly, but that's with the accent of whoever taught you the language (i.e., Spanish spoken with an American accent), and listening skills are what end up lacking unless you've been learning from a native speaker of the language. It's a lot easier to listen to a tape of someone speaking a foreign language in your native tongue's accent, especially when they speak every word slowly and enunciate everything clearly and use completely correct grammar, compared with being confronted with a native speaker who leaves off final consonants, makes liberal use of idiomatic expressions, speaks quickly, etc.

For some people, if they have a sufficient grasp of a language, but are not fully fluent at listening yet, just slowing down, enunciating every word carefully, and using simple sentences is all it takes to communicate with them.

I worked with a post-doc from France once who started out like that...she spoke decent English, but when faced with people like me, who speak really quickly, she was lost. Fortunately, once I told her it was perfectly okay to tell me to slow down if I started speaking too quickly for her to understand, we were able to communicate fairly easily. And, at the end of her year in the U.S., she was lamenting that she wished she learned English better, and I had to point out that she had made great progress, because she was no longer telling me to slow down, and I knew she was understanding what I was saying at my normal speaking speed. She just never noticed that happening.