Bush did get warning about Katrina.

[Amp1]

I'm sure almost everyone has seen or heard that Prez Bush was warned about Katrina before it struck. In the article here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11627394/ [/URL]
it says he was warned in excruciating detail about the dangers Katrina posed. and in a BBC article says he was told of dangers for evacuees at the Superdome. here:[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4765058.stm[/url]

It's possible that because it wasn't Florida being threatened that there wasn't any degree of urgency to have diaster relief in place.

 

[SOS2008]

"I don't know anyone who wasn't caught off guard by its very strong showing," Rice on Jan. 29th about Hamas wining the election.

"I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees" -- George W. Bush, 9/1/05, four days after being warned, on tape, that the levees were a "very, very grave concern"

"I don't think anybody could have predicted that they would try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile." -- Then-National Security Adviser Condi Rice, 5/16/02, despite government reports in ’99 and ’01 predicting just that.

"I don’t know of any reporting that anyone saw that anticipated an insurgency of this level, and I just have never seen anything like that." -- Then-Secretary of State Colin Powell, 12/21/04, two months after the USA Today headline “Prewar intelligence predicted Iraqi insurgency”

And of course this:

"There's an old saying in Tennessee - I know it's in Texas, it's probably in Tennessee - that says, fool me once, shame on ... shame on you. It fool me. We can't get fooled again." -- Bush speaking to an audience at a school in Nashville, Tennessee.

Okay, what ever. So,

a. The Bush administration has only limited intelligence so can't anticipate everything.

b. The Bush administration has plenty of intelligence but is just incompetent.

c. The Bush administration is just a pack of lying rat bastards.

d. Other (please explain)

 

[dsky]

d. I suggest the Bush administration should send the all the army to Florida instead of wasting the american people's money & life in IRAQ.
Why bcoz it has the manpower & equipment to rebuild all the schools, hospitals, and other establishment damaged by Katrina.
Helicopters can quickly clear the debris, Army & Navy Engineers can plan and supervise the Infrastructures. etc..

 

[Amp1]

I choose d),

 

[dsky]

sorry I mean "new orleans" just got carried away

 

[BobG]

d) Bush is a fan of The Who and is trying to explain how his administration has 'revolutionized' government . (probably makes more sense if you've ever read the lyrics to that song).

 

[Zlex]

The Evidence that 300 million Americans were warned, publicly, aggressively, vehemently, at gov't expense

here

So, what was missing was GWB knocking on everyone's doors and saying, "the weather weeinies that we pay to figure this **** out at the NHC really mean it, folks, stop staring at the reporters blowing in the wind this time and get the **** out of the way."

Sure 'nuf. In the face of a potential disaster, the local folks were just waiting to hand over control of their local -mini-cronyfests to GWB.

Gee, whoda known, I mean, unless we were privy to the scoop that only GWB heard in his cronyfest multimillion dollar teleconferenceing bunker holding his government meeting...

THat's his job; to be the alphaMale/ultimate leader, while 300 million Americans stare blanky at their TVs, asleep, safely tucked away in the fantasy of our non-centrally planned/non control economy. He's just got to slyly turn his back while some Jack Bauer character kicks some hurricane ass on our behalf.

Sure nuf, why can't we just jack the temperature at some big guvmin't power plant by 0.1 deg C and deflect the hurricane safely off to already on its ass Mexico? I'm sure I saw that in a movie.

WHAT DID HE KNOW...AND WHEN DID HE KNOW IT?

I love it when the Tribe pulls out this one. I can't wait until the big dance scene at the end.

Meanwhile, what did ALL OF AMERICA KNOW:

..COASTAL STORM SURGE FLOODING OF 18 TO 22 FEET ABOVE NORMAL TIDE
LEVELS...LOCALLY AS HIGH AS 28 FEET...ALONG WITH LARGE AND DANGEROUS
BATTERING WAVES...CAN BE EXPECTED NEAR AND TO THE EAST OF WHERE THE
CENTER MAKES LANDFALL. SOME LEVEES IN THE GREATER NEW ORLEANS AREA
COULD BE OVERTOPPED. SIGNIFICANT STORM SURGE FLOODING WILL OCCUR
ELSEWHERE ALONG THE CENTRAL AND NORTHEASTERN GULF OF MEXICO COAST...

Guldarned, honey they got that damned weather **** ****ing up the teeeeveeee agin, I caint see the guldarned reporter doing that crazy guldarned blow in the wind dance all over the guldarned place...

 

[SOS2008]

The Evidence that 300 million Americans were warned, publicly, aggressively, vehemently, at gov't expense

here

So, what was missing was GWB knocking on everyone's doors and saying, "the weather weeinies that we pay to figure this **** out at the NHC really mean it, folks, stop staring at the reporters blowing in the wind this time and get the **** out of the way."

Sure 'nuf. In the face of a potential disaster, the local folks were just waiting to hand over control of their local -mini-cronyfests to GWB.

Gee, whoda known, I mean, unless we were privy to the scoop that only GWB heard in his cronyfest multimillion dollar teleconferenceing bunker holding his government meeting...

THat's his job; to be the alphaMale/ultimate leader, while 300 million Americans stare blanky at their TVs, asleep, safely tucked away in the fantasy of our non-centrally planned/non control economy. He's just got to slyly turn his back while some Jack Bauer character kicks some hurricane ass on our behalf.

Sure nuf, why can't we just jack the temperature at some big guvmin't power plant by 0.1 deg C and deflect the hurricane safely off to already on its ass Mexico? I'm sure I saw that in a movie.

WHAT DID HE KNOW...AND WHEN DID HE KNOW IT?

I love it when the Tribe pulls out this one. I can't wait until the big dance scene at the end.

Meanwhile, what did ALL OF AMERICA KNOW:



Guldarned, honey they got that damned weather **** ****ing up the teeeeveeee agin, I caint see the guldarned reporter doing that crazy guldarned blow in the wind dance all over the guldarned place...

Yes, everyone was at fault on some level--the state and city government, and even the residents. Let's not forget that many were poor without transportation or a place to go even if they had transportation. What about the sick and ederly? And let's not forget that in the wake of 9-11 we had a large investment in something called homeland security. In regard to the alpha male, well I prefer not to consider us all just a pack of dogs, but rather the buck stops here:

Bush didn’t ask a single question during the final briefing before Katrina struck on Aug. 29, but he assured soon-to-be-battered state officials: “We are fully prepared.”

What a bunch of crock.

The biggest problems had to do with communication. Communication was a problem because of lack of equipment. Equipment was in short supply because of the war in Iraq. True, the enormity of the disaster should be kept in mind. But this was the best that the most powerful and wealthy country in the world could do? Pitiful! Who sleeps at night feeling safe and warm? Not me.

 

[Zlex]

Yes, everyone was at fault on some level--the state and city government, and even the residents. Let's not forget that many were poor without transportation or a place to go even if they had transportation. What about the sick and ederly? And let's not forget that in the wake of 9-11 we had a large investment in something called homeland security. In regard to the alpha male, well I prefer not to consider us all just a pack of dogs, but rather the buck stops here:

What a bunch of crock.

The biggest problems had to do with communication. Communication was a problem because of lack of equipment. Equipment was in short supply because of the war in Iraq. True, the enormity of the disaster should be kept in mind. But this was the best that the most powerful and wealthy country in the world could do? Pitiful! Who sleeps at night feeling safe and warm? Not me.

I don't expect much from the government, except to screw the pooch.

On the average, we're still ... average, not superhuman.

What we can expect is that our own expectations , on average, of what gov't can and should do for us will render what gov't actually can do for us forever and always seem like a cluster**** in comparison.

The solution, I don't think, is to throw yet more innefficiently expended(ie, ultimately based on cronyism)money at it to build an even bigger uberGovernment, atempting to do yet more for us. ie, to attempt do what we irrationally demand it attempt to do. But, that is all we do, no matter what party of power is in there.

As well and for our endless entertainement on boards like this, all the party out of power endlessly has to do is point out the latest cluster****s, then count on the default assumption that the cluster****s would be in any way different if a different frat house full of glad handers was running the toga party.

We're at the point where it's not necessary to turn over rocks, break down doors, or even so much as shine a light on cluster****s to expose them; all that is required is to say, "look at that," and barely that.

So, when do we finally conclude, whatever 'it' is, make 'it' smaller?' I'm pretty sure, never. It's this all the way until the gears are all ground to the knubs.

Some federal things worked extremely well in Katrina. The National Hurricane Center, before the fact, saved lives. Our military, after the fact, moved in and saved lives.

What didn't work so well was the giant universal 18" soft landing Nerf blanket that we expect the gov't will deploy in face of every conceivable catastrophe, natural or otherwise.

Some of our expectations/dissapointments persist, in that we still believe that the Universal 18" Nerf blanket is a possibility, if only we throw enough money at it, or if only we have the right frat house full of glad handers running the toga party.

On average, those expectations will never go away. So, on average, we're basically ****ed.

Don't be sad or defeated in this conclusion, however; I'm not. Such sadness would only be based on an unrealistic expectations for a species that on average, will forever be average.

It is what it ****in' is; undeniably average. So the more 'it' acts and is evaluated as a massive, monolithic federal 'it,' with massive group actions, the more 'it' approaches the not so Golden norm.

The whole of which has no sex-sell appeal for our insatiable 24/7 news media, whose job is to pick throught the pile of average and glean the odd anecdote of exceptionally bad and exceptionally good with which to shock and amaze the masses with, for whatever end, be it shape their political perception or sell them Toyotas.

The myth of a myriad of strings all leading back to the AlphaMale/Maximum Leader in his multimillion dollar/multimedia command bunker with instantaneous massless response from our bloated bureacracy is just entertaining fodder for the party in power/party out of power dance around the base of the volcano.

 

[Amp1]

Zlex:

...Some of our expectations/dissapointments persist, in that we still believe that the Universal 18" Nerf blanket is a possibility, if only we throw enough money at it, or if only we have the right frat house full of glad handers running the toga party...

Quite Zlex; however, in Bush's brother's territory, we saw such timely and effective response (does anyone need sources as it was all over the various news services) in the wake of the hurricanes that breezed thru there, I for one am incredulous by what happened in NO.

 

[MTyler8]

I'm leaning toward C as the correct answer. I would add that in this case it was not just the lying that made it so bad. It was the uncaring. There was no big obvious reason for the Bush leaguers to get involved. Not enough rich doners in N.O. Not enough GOP votes. No brother as governor. Just no reason for them to care. Notice also how fast they have quit caring after making the "whatever it takes" promise.

 

[russ_watters]

Quite Zlex; however, in Bush's brother's territory, we saw such timely and effective response (does anyone need sources as it was all over the various news services) in the wake of the hurricanes that breezed thru there, I for one am incredulous by what happened in NO.

If you are saying that Florida got special treatment, keep in mind that the immediate problems in New Orleans were far worse than they were in Florida. It is quite fair to say that Bush was not as prepared as he should have been, but it isn't fair to say he gave special treatment to Florida.

 

[silkworm]

Of course he saw it coming. I'm not the President and I saw it coming. If I knew that he didn't have the weather channel I would have called him. You don't have to be a genius or a fortune teller to realize that a category 5 hurricane heading for a major metropolitan area that is below sea level is a situation that requires special attention.

I think what Katrina showed is that his administration through it's croniism is the most incompetent administration the United States has ever seen.

If the bird flu came here today we'd be in serious serious trouble because our government could not even organize an evacuation and rescue effort that is relatively simpler than fighting a pandemic.

2008 is what I can't wait for.

 

[Art]

The emergency teams still haven't responded adequately to the NO disaster,

NEW ORLEANS, United States (AFP) - Six months after Hurricane Katrina ravaged New Orleans, bodies are still being pulled out of wrecked and rotting homes.

Firefighters in hard hats with cadaver dogs found the latest victim on Monday in a house that had been inspected months ago, though clearly not well enough.

It was the second corpse found since recovery efforts resumed last Friday, said Steve Glynn, chief of special operations for the New Orleans Fire Department.

The race and gender of the body located Monday found in the black Lower Ninth Ward, could not be determined, Glynn said.

"I don't want to be too graphic," Glynn said. "But it was confusing at first."

The official door-to-door search of New Orleans ended October 3 with a death toll of 972. Since then, at least 131 more bodies have been found. Some by officials, some by horror-struck friends and family members, some even by insurance inspectors.

Firefighters continued to search homes for a few more months, but had to stop in December when their funding ran out.

http://www.chinathetimes.com/content/view/136/2/

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Quite Zlex; however, in Bush's brother's territory, we saw such timely and effective response (does anyone need sources as it was all over the various news services) in the wake of the hurricanes that breezed thru there, I for one am incredulous by what happened in NO.

You may also want to consider that Florida gets hit with hurricanes rather regularly (have you known a year to go by that they haven't been hit by one?) and is quite prepared for such emergencies.

 

[edward]

Homeland Security is starting to look like a confused paper tiger. They even used Bush's only defense, the fog of war as their own excuse for the Katrina failure. Good Lord they have spent the last two years, with no success, trying to decide what type of security identification card shipping port workers should carry. On the other hand they voted in favor of turning over port operations to UAE DPWorld, even though according to more recent news the ports are not considered to be secure now.

Homeland Security officials have said the “fog of war” blinded them early on to the magnitude of the disaster. But the video and transcripts show federal and local officials discussed threats clearly, reviewed long-made plans and understood Katrina would wreak devastation of historic proportions. “I’m sure it will be the top 10 or 15 when all is said and done,” the National Hurricane Center’s Max Mayfield warned the day Katrina lashed the Gulf Coast.

 

[Zlex]

Zlex:


Quite Zlex; however, in Bush's brother's territory, we saw such timely and effective response (does anyone need sources as it was all over the various news services) in the wake of the hurricanes that breezed thru there, I for one am incredulous by what happened in NO.

I would give little credit to the government, and more the people of Florida who know from experience how to deal with hurricanes.

There are lots of places in the US where flooding is an annual event.

(Some will not dispute that)I grew up in one of them; an island in the middle of a river. Every Spring, the island would be flooded, like clockwork. Folks just built their 'first' floors' on their 'second floors.' Their 'first floors' were concrete floored ground level basements, and there was no subground basement. You just didn't put anything that couldn't be 'fixed' with a hose on the first floor. The first floors opened up directly onto the river, maybe by way of a concrete pad/dock, and after a 'flood,' it was easy enough to dig out and wash the silt back into the river. There have been homes in that annual 'flood plain' for decades, that have been flooded every year. It's planned for, it's expected, and it is no big deal.

Those homes can't get flood insurance...and don't need flood insurance.

I remember as a kid looking into the ground floor of a neighbor's house during a 'flood.' There was our neighbor, sitting up to his neck in floodwater, drinking a beer, holding the bottle up out of the brownish water, watching a small b/w TV up on a shelf still out of the water. All you could see was his crew cut head, his hand, and the beer. Occasionally, his wife would scream down at him to get the Hell out of the basement, and he'd kind of toast her with another swig. He was a Bethlehem Steel worker back when, a real Polish hard-ass, and ... was pretty much insane. His effect on the water was probably much more toxic than vice-versa.

He didn't look like he was waiting for FEMA...

If you want to hold a Democratic yardstick up to Bush and proclaim that he fell way short of delivering absolute effortless safety and comfort to every American regardless of their personal behaviors, choices or values, then be my guest. But, your expectations of what role the government should or can play in our lives are probably not mine.

We elect one bunch of yahoos, and then wait for someone to make our lives better. It doesn't happen, so we elect the next bunch of yahoos who claim they will make our lives better. It doesn't happen, so we elect the next bunch of yahoos who claim they will make our lives better, and it doesn't happen.

With enough waiting for other folks to come through on their promises to effortlessly and painlessly make our lives better, we, too, could find ourselves knee deep in toxic water waiting for some crappy bus that is never going to come.

When will we get it?

Too much gets thrown at, and way too little of this nations resources make it past the gladhanding crony gauntlet and actually make it to the heros/professionals at the pointy end of the stick, at the business end of the firehose, at the lifesaving end of the hoist from some helicopter.

You think that's an exclusively 'Bush/GOP' thing, be my guest, but I'm thinking that with every passing cluster ****, more and more folks are seeing this love affair with Bigger and Biggger government, multilayer/overlapping entities that all basically suck no matter what group of balloon chasing idiots make it out of the local circus/convention hall as something that needs trimming, not expansion.

This is not a Command Economy, nbor is it a Command Universe. We got to stop paying for and trying to build a bureacracy that promises to run the nation as if it were.

 

[Amp1]

TSA,

You may also want to consider that Florida gets hit with hurricanes rather regularly (have you known a year to go by that they haven't been hit by one?) and is quite prepared for such emergencies.

Yes, I'm aware of that which makes i that much harder for me to understand why Bush wold commit so much to Florida knowing the damage that can be done by Cat 2,3 & 4 hurricanes and get caught so so seemingly offguard when he knew a cat 5 was making a beeline towards NO and Mississippi.

Zlex,(snip)

...You think that's an exclusively 'Bush/GOP' thing, be my guest, but I'm thinking that with every passing cluster ****, more and more folks are seeing this love affair with Bigger and Biggger government, multilayer/overlapping entities that all basically suck no matter what group of balloon chasing idiots make it out of the local circus/convention hall as something that needs trimming, not expansion.

In he case of the current admin I would say yep, true we don't get much bang for the vote in general but other admins I can remember going back to Nixon were less clueless and overtly corrupt than the present one.

 

[SOS2008]

Yes, I'm aware of that which makes i that much harder for me to understand why Bush wold commit so much to Florida knowing the damage that can be done by Cat 2,3 & 4 hurricanes and get caught so so seemingly offguard when he knew a cat 5 was making a beeline towards NO and Mississippi.

The real difference was the levees and resulting flood. Why do I suspect that the Corp of Engineers would be given proper funding to maintain/improve levees in Florida?

In he case of the current admin I would say yep, true we don't get much bang for the vote in general but other admins I can remember going back to Nixon were less clueless and overtly corrupt than the present one.

More like getting the bang for the buck. No representation, no taxation. I expect something for all that money withheld from each paycheck, excuse me. As for insurance, a lot of good it has done these people who didn't read the fine print. (It is even more disturbing that in some cases insurance has become the law, hum?)

I have no sympathy for anyone who wants to rebuild in the flood zone--we've all known for years that the obstruction to the river and lack of a land barrier from hurricanes was a stupid idea.

 

[russ_watters]

The real difference was the levees and resulting flood. Why do I suspect that the Corp of Engineers would be given proper funding to maintain/improve levees in Florida?

Because there is no evidence either way, it makes it easy to assume whatever you want...?

 

[Futobingoro]

Has anyone seen the http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2315076.html from this month's Popular Mechanics?

 

[SOS2008]

Hurricanes Katrina and Rita Were Like Night and Day

By Spencer S. Hsu and Steve Hendrix
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, September 25, 2005; A01


...In New Orleans, the levees failed, "then you had the civil unrest piece of it."

...Two days before landfall, Bush declared Rita an "incident of national significance" -- which triggers the federal government's highest level of response -- and Chertoff named Coast Guard Rear Adm. Larry Hereth as the federal officer in charge. Those steps were taken two days after Katrina hit.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/24/AR2005092401758_pf.html

And other factors, such as a larger number of National Guard and military troops readied earlier for Rita than for Katrina.

President Bush repeatedly requested less money for programs to guard against catastrophic storms in New Orleans than many federal and state officials requested...they said Bush's decision to hold down spending on fortifying levees around New Orleans reflected a broader shuffling of resources -- to pay for tax cuts and the Iraq invasion -- that has left the United States more vulnerable.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/01/AR2005090102261.html

But ultimately the levees were only made to withstand a category 3 hurricane, and was never upgraded due to cost benefit analysis. And because money is so tight in New Orleans now:

In fiscal year 2006, the New Orleans district of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers is bracing for a record $71.2 million reduction in federal funding.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4200/is_20050606/ai_n14657367

 

[Zlex]

Zlex,(snip)


In he case of the current admin I would say yep, true we don't get much bang for the vote in general but other admins I can remember going back to Nixon were less clueless and overtly corrupt than the present one.

Ok what I mean is, it's always been loose, but even now, as we speak, the nation is clamboring to get rid of all the lip service 'red tape.'

What do we think is going to happen in this circumstance? The cronies and crooks and gladhanders are all of the sudden going to wax apologetic and turn their back on the 'free money' gauntlet?

Did you read about FEMA and the firemen/EMT volunteers being held up to get 'gender bias and sensitivity training?' At first, you just shake your head at that nonsense; I mean, people are huddled in attics up to their armpits in water, here are the last remaining heroes in America and FEMA is taking timeout to make sure these volunteers are fully certified in all the latest total crap. But, there is a fundamentle reason for that, and it has nothing to do with stupid feelgood legislation; it has more to do with the fact that folks make money delivering those jackass seminars, and they can point to some legislation or statute as cover and claim, 'sorry, got to do it,' even as people are dieing.

Even as people are dieing.

So, now that the immediate peril is past, does anybody think for a moment that this whole government effort is going to be anywhere near efficient or corruption free or anything other than a giant excuse to run more of the same old same old, only freshly greased?

The game is boringly transparent. Each camp of half-wits takes turns doing the inevitable, screwing the pooch at the helm of some bloated dinosaur while the halfwits-in-waiting take a breather and claim, "We'd do it better/couldn't be any worse."

A constant tag team of dumb-and-dumb, promising/implying that Nirvana is always just a change of just average folks away.

Please.

You know what couldn't be worse? Repopulating the highest levels of elected government randomly from the phone book; a draft.