Should space exploration be only the developed world’s adventure?

[shashankac655]

I had mixed feelings when the first Indian unmanned lunar mission came under sharp criticism, the most common argument was that “should a country with such a poverty rate ,malnutrition and one the lowest per capita GDP really be spending on development of such technologies that are usually done in the in developed world”?
One of my arguments is that for too long we have depended on the west for sophisticated technologies.
The developing world cannot endlessly depend on the west when it comes to science and technology .
There has to be some attempt from the developing world to do something on their own and just buying everything from the west doesn’t do anything good.

There are big social ,economical and political problems but does that mean the government has to simply halt all the scientific research and development programs intended to produce indigenous technologies and focus only on such problems ?Such a move will badly affect the already poor track record of the developing world when comes to developing indigenous technologies and we may never catch up with the west.

Poverty ,malnutrition and other problems cannot be solved overnight, there are policies and projects set up by the government to combat these problems but still it may require decades to happen as it is plagued by inefficient governance and corruption.

what do the critics think the government should do? Distribute free money to all the poor people?
The poor are not just poor they are also lazy (I know this by personal experience and I can’t tell everything here.)

The primary intentions behind the setting up of ISRO(Indian space research organization) was to reduce the dependence on other countries for launching satellites that forecast weather and locate mineral resources and keep track on forest cover and for television etc..but recently ISRO thought of going a bit further but even then it has spent far less money for the lunar mission than what NASA or ESA or other big organizations would have spent for the same mission.
ISRO neither has the capability nor the intention to match NASA or the ESA and other big organizations anytime soon, ISRO’s ambitions and capabilities are modest compared to NASA and everything is done at lowest cost possible even then ISRO is not really so unsuccessful.

Comments and opinions will be appreciated.

 

[russ_watters]

I had mixed feelings when the first Indian unmanned lunar mission came under sharp criticism, the most common argument was t
The developing world cannot endlessly depend on the west when it comes to science and technology .

Can and should. Simple reason: its cheaper and more efficient.

 

[Cuauhtemoc]

I think it's up to the people in these countries to decide what's best for them. I don't think they will ever beat poverty without technology, so they should focus on becoming more advanced.

 

[WhoWee]

what do the critics think the government should do? Distribute free money to all the poor people?
The poor are not just poor they are also lazy (I know this by personal experience and I can’t tell everything here.)

 

[Alfi]

The poor are not just poor they are also lazy (I know this by personal experience and I can’t tell everything here.)Comments and opinions will be appreciated.

First, sorry you are poor. I don't think it's my fault. (I'm not so sorry that you are lazy )
Do you think that if you were richer you would be less lazy?

 

[shashankac655]

First, sorry you are poor. I don't think it's my fault. (I'm not so sorry that you are lazy )
Do you think that if you were richer you would be less lazy?

:rofl:I didn't say i am poor( i am from a middle class family) ...what i was trying to say was that there are many people living in slums near the place i live and i was ready to spend some money from own pocket and from my dad's (after his approval)to send some children in these slums to school at least till they pass out of 10th grade but i was just pissed off(it seems they don't want to improve their lives even when they are given a chance).I hope this isn't the case with all the poor out there.

Anyway i would like it if we stick to the topic of "space technology".

 

[mege]

Look at India's regional neighbors - China has taken advantage of its relative stability this century and become a global powerhouse. I think in many ways India is trying to become too Western and not developing their own system, like you've said. So they'll neccessarilly be several decades behind in government-scale technology development as (generally) India is only parroting 'the West'. China, on the otherhand, internalized their pride and has attempted to make their own advances socially and technologically.

I'm not saying we should idolize China's development, but I think it makes a good foil to India's development following behind the US/Euro.

So to answer the question directly: I think that space exploration is a stage of a developing nation. It may occur at different times depending on what model you're using. India, if you consider to be a few decades behind in government-scale tech, is probably about the right time for space exploration. Also, I'd remind that 'developing nation' is a relative term. Every country is developing, it's just a matter of how, etc.

 

[shashankac655]

Can and should. Simple reason: its cheaper and more efficient.

what you suggest is good provided there is free flow of scientific knowledge from the west to the developing world but it's not happening. Why should the developing world be on the receiving end all the time, when access to certain technologies are denied? on assumption that it will be used for military purposes.

 

[Drakkith]

what you suggest is good provided there is free flow of scientific knowledge from the west to the developing world but it's not happening. Why should the developing world be on the receiving end all the time, when access to certain technologies are denied? on assumption that it will be used for military purposes.

Other than Nuclear technologies, what are you talking about?

 

[shashankac655]

Look at India's regional neighbors - China has taken advantage of its relative stability this century and become a global powerhouse. I think in many ways India is trying to become too Western and not developing their own system, like you've said. So they'll neccessarilly be several decades behind in government-scale technology development as (generally) India is only parroting 'the West'. China, on the otherhand, internalized their pride and has attempted to make their own advances socially and technologically.

I'm not saying we should idolize China's development, but I think it makes a good foil to India's development following behind the US/Euro.

So to answer the question directly: I think that space exploration is a stage of a developing nation. It may occur at different times depending on what model you're using. India, if you consider to be a few decades behind in government-scale tech, is probably about the right time for space exploration. Also, I'd remind that 'developing nation' is a relative term. Every country is developing, it's just a matter of how, etc.

I agree...China is to a certain extent a role model for all the developing countries in several aspects.

 

[shashankac655]

Other than Nuclear technologies, what are you talking about?

I am talking about all the technologies that may be used in the military not just nuclear,like
rocket propulsion,cryogenics etc.

 

[Drakkith]

I am talking about all the technologies that may be used in the military not just nuclear,like
rocket propulsion,cryogenics etc.

I don't see how any of that is being withheld. Other than cutting edge breakthroughs that are possibly classified by the government, all of that is readily available if you can afford the training and technology.

 

[russ_watters]

...or patented. Otherwise information is free. Frankly, this all sounds naive and ungrateful. If not for technological proliferation, India would be far behind where it is today.

 

[shashankac655]

...or patented. Otherwise information is free. Frankly, this all sounds naive and ungrateful. If not for technological proliferation, India would be far behind where it is today.

No no, i am very grateful for the western world especially Britain for bringing the country to the modern age,i know India would be a little different from countries like Somalia if not for the British.What i want to say is that i don't like it when all we do is buy or borrow instead of developing things on our own,is this not the time to put some native talents to a test and see what India is capable of doing without western aid or supervision?( i know we can't just do everything on our own all of a sudden)

Can you name one country in this world which doesn't mind depending on other countries unless it has no choice at all?

Why is the USA such a successful country it is because it hardly depends on any other country when it comes cutting edge technology. I am not completely against "learning from the west"
i just want to India cultivate it's own technologies side by side with the "learning from the west "principle.

 

[Drakkith]

I understand your point of view shashankac655, but what you are saying doesn't really match up with how the real world works. If your country is behind others in technology and science, you don't need to research "new" stuff that has already been discovered by the US or another country.

 

[Alfi]

:rofl:I didn't say i am poor( i am from a middle class family) ...what i was trying to say was that there are many people living in slums near the place i live and i was ready to spend some money from own pocket and from my dad's (after his approval)to send some children in these slums to school at least till they pass out of 10th grade but i was just pissed off(it seems they don't want to improve their lives even when they are given a chance).I hope this isn't the case with all the poor out there.

Anyway i would like it if we stick to the topic of "space technology".

Sorry for my off topic response.
Your comment just stuck in my craw is all. :)
I am from a 'poor' family. I am the first ( and as it turns out the only ) member of my family to break out and get an education. I worked eight hours a day, schooled eight hours a day and slept whenever.. just so I could to pay for it all.
This isn't the case with all the poor out there, from my perspective.

As far as "space technology" goes ... I am SO proud. One of the circuit boards I worked on is still in orbit. A low noise amplifier (LNA) I helped develop. damn.. We had to submit a hundred 'perfect boards' so NASA could send up just two.

This planet is one big basket and holds ALL the eggs of this 'humanity'. ONE big rock can kill it all and I full hardheartedly hope that we humans get off this rock before it happens.
I don't care who does it. That part does not matter. It needs to be done. So let's do it.

 

[shashankac655]

Sorry for my off topic response.
Your comment just stuck in my craw is all. :)
I am from a 'poor' family. I am the first ( and as it turns out the only ) member of my family to break out and get an education. I worked eight hours a day, schooled eight hours a day and slept whenever.. just so I could to pay for it all.
This isn't the case with all the poor out there, from my perspective.

As far as "space technology" goes ... I am SO proud. One of the circuit boards I worked on is still in orbit. A low noise amplifier (LNA) I helped develop. damn.. We had to submit a hundred 'perfect boards' so NASA could send up just two.

This planet is one big basket and holds ALL the eggs of this 'humanity'. ONE big rock can kill it all and I full hardheartedly hope that we humans get off this rock before it happens.
I don't care who does it. That part does not matter. It needs to be done. So let's do it.

wow! so think i can get more confidence now ,all these days i had started to think that pursuing a carrier in aerospace engineering is unrealistic for someone from my background since you could do it even after being "poor" i think i can give it a try too,Thanks

 

[Drakkith]

Work hard and opportunities will open up for you. I like the old view of: "People make their own luck." Whether that luck is good or bad.

 

[shashankac655]

I understand your point of view shashankac655, but what you are saying doesn't really match up with how the real world works. If your country is behind others in technology and science, you don't need to research "new" stuff that has already been discovered by the US or another country.

That is exactly what i want to limit if not put a end to it all of a sudden, developing countries have to learn the art of research and development, by buying "everything" we will not be making full use of the potential of our people when it comes to innovation and ideas,we will be wasting a whole lot of human potential!

Even if we could just buy, i don't really see a clear "transfer of technology policy" that is happening because if technology is transferred we no longer have to buy! from the west.
(A good move will be large scale joint research programs on new technologies)
what you are suggesting is that developing countries shouldn't try to do anything on their own and only the developed world should do that and then we have to buy it,which will ensure good money and jobs for the developed world and i am opposed to that.

Almost any big "technological breakthroughs" that happened in the west during the 20th century was primarily for military purposes during world wars and the Cold war, the governments were putting pressure on scientists to come up with new technologies that will enhance the military capabilities,during this time most of the developing world were colonies of the western powers and this is the real reason why the developing world is lagging behind.
Now that we are not colonies but independent countries,we will try to depend less and less on the developed world with respect everything from science and technology to economy no matter what criticism we might face.

 

[shashankac655]

This planet is one big basket and holds ALL the eggs of this 'humanity'. ONE big rock can kill it all and I full hardheartedly hope that we humans get off this rock before it happens.
I don't care who does it. That part does not matter. It needs to be done. So let's do it.

I completely agree!:rofl:

 

[Drakkith]

Even if we could just buy, i don't really see a clear "transfer of technology policy" that is happening because if technology is transferred we no longer have to buy! from the west.
(A good move will be large scale joint research programs on new technologies)
what you are suggesting is that developing countries shouldn't try to do anything on their own and only the developed world should do that and then we have to buy it,which will ensure good money and jobs for the developed world and i am opposed to that.

In no way have I suggested that. I have no problem with your country researching technology. All I meant was that you don't stop learning from the west as you call it and research from scratch. You need to research new things.

Almost any big "technological breakthroughs" that happened in the west during the 20th century was primarily for military purposes during world wars and the Cold war, the governments were putting pressure on scientists to come up with new technologies that will enhance the military capabilities,during this time most of the developing world were colonies of the western powers and this is the real reason why the developing world is lagging behind.

I guess that depends on what you mean by "technological breakthroughs". There were plenty used by the military sure, but did you realize that one of the ways researchers get finance is to approach the governments and tell them about this new idea that can help the military? There were just as many failed ideas as there were breakthroughs, if not more. And even then, many technologies developed for the military have been vastly improved simply because they got OUT of the military and into the public. Competition makes a good innovator.

 

[russ_watters]

Even if we could just buy, i don't really see a clear "transfer of technology policy" that is happening because if technology is transferred we no longer have to buy! from the west.

No such policy exists because none is required. Once in the public domain, technology is free and posted on the internet for all to see...actually, it's posted before it's free for people to imitate or steal, which happens a lot in the East.

(A good move will be large scale joint research programs on new technologies)
what you are suggesting is that developing countries shouldn't try to do anything on their own and only the developed world should do that and then we have to buy it,which will ensure good money and jobs for the developed world and i am opposed to that.

That's not anywhere close to what has been suggested. This isn't an all or nothing proposition. You started this thread by asking about the single most expensive thing (most expensive individual projects) humans do! Just because you shouldn't do that, doesn't mean you shouldn't do any research at all.

Now that we are not colonies but independent countries,we will try to depend less and less on the developed world with respect everything from science and technology to economy no matter what criticism we might face.

Ok, but outside criticism is the least of your worries if your people are dying of The Plague because money is diverted from funding a modernized sanitation system to a pointless space program.

 

[mishrashubham]

Ok, but outside criticism is the least of your worries if your people are dying of The Plague because money is diverted from funding a modernized sanitation system to a pointless space program.

The problem with our country is not lack of money. The government has enough funds and policies for the welfare of the poor. It is just that most of it goes into certain people's pockets instead of where it is supposed to be spent on.

 

[moa_osen]

Why is the USA such a successful country it is because it hardly depends on any other country when it comes cutting edge technology. I am not completely against "learning from the west"
i just want to India cultivate it's own technologies side by side with the "learning from the west "principle.

The United States isn't doing so hot in research right now. Our country is slashing research programs one by one, taking millions of dollars out of some very promising labs. This isn't a symptom of a country who is still riding a wave of technological and scientific greatness.

I also think that assuming India is not cultivating its own technologies as well as "learning from the West principle" smacks a bit anti-intellectual and closed minded towards the intellectual capacities of non-Western populations.

 

[joesmith]

I don't care who does it. That part does not matter. It needs to be done. So let's do it.
-----------------------------------------
Good for You,,young man,I hope you hold this attitude as long as
possible. Refreshing indeed.
____________________________
In roughly a hundred SOL's,,,the MSL will reach for Mars.IF all goes well,,(perfect planet-fall),,this Rover will be the Last from
what is left of America. At least for half a century,,,sadly we,the
People have developed a Welfare State,,,with the help of a President,who seems to know of no other way to run this country.
-------------------------------
So sad,,,but so true.
________________________
You,on the other hand ,(India)are young at space and MUCH more mature politically than America.India will go far and be the
better for it.

 

[shashankac655]

Ok, but outside criticism is the least of your worries if your people are dying of The Plague because money is diverted from funding a modernized sanitation system to a pointless space program.

You talk as if the Indian government is spending a huge portion of the GDP on space programs this nothing but baseless hype created by people who enjoy criticizing India's progress.

I assure you that no money has been diverted from developmental programs to space programs. It will be more reasonable on your part if criticize the military budget instead of the over-hyped space budget because the "space budget" is nothing compared to military budget but even then a big military budget for country which shares disputed borders with countries like Pakistan and China (the former exports terror and latter exports fear) is not unreasonable either.

 

[shashankac655]

The United States isn't doing so hot in research right now. Our country is slashing research programs one by one, taking millions of dollars out of some very promising labs. This isn't a symptom of a country who is still riding a wave of technological and scientific greatness.

Just because US is not doing so hot in research right now doesn't mean it never did ,it's because of the current problems in economy and rising unemployment once these problems go the US may resume it's big budget research programs.

 

[Drakkith]

The problem with our country is not lack of money. The government has enough funds and policies for the welfare of the poor. It is just that most of it goes into certain people's pockets instead of where it is supposed to be spent on.

I call BS on this entire statement. Not even the US has enough money to fund all of the policies for welfare.

 

[shashankac655]

That's not anywhere close to what has been suggested. This isn't an all or nothing proposition. You started this thread by asking about the single most expensive thing (most expensive individual projects) humans do! Just because you shouldn't do that, doesn't mean you shouldn't do any research at all.

I know you didn't suggest that, almost any new technologies one would want to research about now is quite expensive like nanotechnology ,biotechnology and many others, none of them are going to come cheap but i agree they may not be as expensive as space programs but space technology is something unique ,it is something like "the defining technology of the century" and it has got a lot of political motives as well like "we are capable of doing it too". Almost all space programs had political angles the Americans landed on the moon not really because of "scientific curiosity" but because they wanted to do it before the Soviets but the Soviets never managed to do it that's a different story.

Even China's space program has a lot of political message aimed at telling the US that "We are not really so far behind",China even wants to build it's own space station this says it all ,there is a "small scale" space race gearing up in Asia and between US and China whether or not it is advisable to do it. It's just that when science programs have political motives it's difficult to stop them or slow them down if their is any need for it.

 

[shashankac655]

In no way have I suggested that. I have no problem with your country researching technology. All I meant was that you don't stop learning from the west...

I never said the word "STOP", i only said about "trying to depend less" on the west.

I guess that depends on what you mean by "technological breakthroughs". There were plenty used by the military sure, but did you realize that one of the ways researchers get finance is to approach the governments and tell them about this new idea that can help the military? There were just as many failed ideas as there were breakthroughs, if not more. And even then, many technologies developed for the military have been vastly improved simply because they got OUT of the military and into the public. Competition makes a good innovator.

Yea... Science is a double edged weapon ,we can use it in anyway we want.

 

[Drakkith]

I never said the word "STOP", i only said about "trying to depend less" on the west.

Ok, so this below isn't saying STOP?

That is exactly what i want to limit if not put a end to it all of a sudden, developing countries have to learn the art of research and development, by buying "everything" we will not be making full use of the potential of our people when it comes to innovation and ideas,we will be wasting a whole lot of human potential!

There is a reason countries are classified as developed or developing. You don't just skip the whole process of development and expect to explore space. I mean, that IS what you are talking about. You don't research space technologies and NOT use them, it is a waste of resources. Now, just because your country doesn't have much to do with space exploration or cutting edge technologies doesn't mean YOU can't learn about them. Many people go to colleges in other countries. But the fact is that, on the whole, your country is NOT going to be doing any major projects having to do with space until they have a good reason to. Like you said, even the US space program was kicked off by the Cold War. While we have a better chance in this day and age of getting space programs funded for non military purposes, most of them are still extremely expensive and require an even more expensive launch vehicle to get them to orbit. We can argue all day long, but it isn't up to us and whether we believe it SHOULD happen or not. It is up to the country and its people.

Yea... Science is a double edged weapon ,we can use it in anyway we want.

Anything can be used as a weapon.

 

[russ_watters]

The problem with our country is not lack of money. The government has enough funds and policies for the welfare of the poor.

With a per capita gpd of 1/10th that of the west, I'd say money is the #1 problem.

 

[russ_watters]

You talk as if the Indian government is spending a huge portion of the GDP on space programs this nothing but baseless hype created by people who enjoy criticizing India's progress.

I didn't say that it is - the issue here is that you are suggesting it should. This is your thread! You started it by asking that question!

 

[Ryan_m_b]

The problem with manned space exploration is that it is horrifically expensive, dangerous and there are little economic returns. For a developed country with the funds and the will to fund it space programs are good at rousing public interest, for developing countries it may be seen as a waste of money that could be better spent elsewhere.

You've spoke of space technology being "something different" and given examples of other fields such as bio/nanotechnology but that difference is entirely aesthetic.

 

[mishrashubham]

With a per capita gpd of 1/10th that of the west, I'd say money is the #1 problem.

It wouldn't be such a huge problem if the money went where it was supposed to.