Does the orientation of a crossbow affect its accuracy?

  • Thread starter JAG1118
  • Start date
  • Tags
    Balance
In summary, Jerry has been shooting both a Vertical Crossbow and a Horizontal Crossbow and has found that he shoots the vertical crossbow more accurately when shooting off hand or free hand without a rest. He is wondering if there is a technical reason for this, as most vertical compound bow shooters tend to outshoot horizontal crossbow shooters in contests when shooting freehand. Jerry has taken the same bow and shot it both ways with similar results, and is curious if this has to do with gravity pulling on a wider surface or object in the horizontal position causing more instability. He also mentions the possibility of the vertical position creating a "plumb bob" effect. Jerry asks if there are any studies or formulas that could explain the difference in balance and control between
  • #1
JAG1118
15
0
I have been shooting both a Vertical Crossbow and a Horizontal Crossbow, I find that I shoot the vertical crossbow (off hand or free hand, without a rest) much more accuratlly than I shoot the Horizontal Crossbow, Is there a technical reason why? Most all vertical compound bow shooters (shooting in the traditional style, drawing by hand and releasing) out shoot horizontal crossbow shooters in contest (freehand). I have taken the same bow and shot it both ways and my results were the same. Is this because of gravity pulling on a wider surface or object, the limbs being horizontal, is causing more instability? Is shooting in the vertical position creating more of a "plumb bob" effect?
Take a look at the website for more information,
www.verticalcrossbow.com please look at the "In-Line Crossbow" page
Please help,
Jerry
 
Physics news on Phys.org
  • #2
Having shot both styles of bow myself, I have an opinion. It's easier to sight down the arrow of a classic style bow, for me. But it comes down to practice
 
  • #3
Alfang said:
Having shot both styles of bow myself, I have an opinion. It's easier to sight down the arrow of a classic style bow, for me. But it comes down to practice

We are not talking "Tradional Archery" and looking down the arrowwhen shooting, we are using sights. All things being equal, is there a difference because of some force of nature acting on the object being held in the two different position, vertical vs horizontal?

Jerry
 
  • #4
Take the human out of the equation. Set up a "robot".
 
  • #5
CWatters said:
Take the human out of the equation. Set up a "robot".

You guy's are not getting what I am asking. I know a crossbow shot horizontally is just as accurate if it is shot in a vice, "a bow, is a bow, is a bow" This is a balance qusetion, holding and shooting the two bows by hand held methods.
I have compared it to holding a 48" rod vertically and horizontally. In vertical it is easier to control and move around than in Horizontal. Why? Try it yourself

Jerry
 
  • #6
Jerry, we have been trying to address your accuracy issue.

Your balance issue your asking seems to me an issue of needing more practice.

Assuming your grip on the bow is centered at the balance point of your bow.

Perhaps Ted Nugent can explain better than us :)
 
  • #7
Alfang said:
Jerry, we have been trying to address your accuracy issue.

Your balance issue your asking seems to me an issue of needing more practice.

Assuming your grip on the bow is centered at the balance point of your bow.

Perhaps Ted Nugent can explain better than us :)

Alfang,
Watch this Video and tell me if I need more practice to be accurate.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #8
well I'm done trying to help you, I don't know what your asking anymore.

To answer your question, If your comfortable with your skills shooting a pumpkin at 100 yards, that's all that counts, My self, I'd keep going till I got a group into an apple, But I was a Marine Sniper so I expect a lot from myself.
 
  • #9
JAG1118 said:
We are not talking "Tradional Archery" and looking down the arrowwhen shooting, we are using sights. All things being equal, is there a difference because of some force of nature acting on the object being held in the two different position, vertical vs horizontal?

Jerry

Do you notice a difference in sight movement between the two orientations as you hold and release? If your sight wander is the same between the two, maybe there is a difference in the tolerance of the jump in the hold for the two orientations...?
 
  • #10
Alfang said:
well I'm done trying to help you, I don't know what your asking anymore.

To answer your question, If your comfortable with your skills shooting a pumpkin at 100 yards, that's all that counts, My self, I'd keep going till I got a group into an apple, But I was a Marine Sniper so I expect a lot from myself.

That would be best. You are not answering my question. The question has to do with balance and control when holding the same object vertical vs horizontal in this case a (bow).
And, if there were any formulas, studies etc... that might explain what is best and how force might be distibuted on it to make the a difference.
Thats all,
 
  • #11
JAG1118 said:
That would be best. You are not answering my question. The question has to do with balance and control when holding the same object vertical vs horizontal in this case a (bow).
And, if there were any formulas, studies etc... that might explain what is best and how force might be distibuted on it to make the a difference.
Thats all,

Mellow out. People are just trying to help you. Please answer my questions in my reply.
 
  • #12
berkeman said:
Do you notice a difference in sight movement between the two orientations as you hold and release? If your sight wander is the same between the two, maybe there is a difference in the tolerance of the jump in the hold for the two orientations...?

No, the sights are not the issue. I use a simple pin and a peep when shooting in the vertical position and use a powered scope in Horizontal, the same bow. As I stated before, vertical, compound bow, shooters typically out shoot horizontal, crossbow, shooter. I am wondering if it has to do with the vertical orientation being more balanced and controllable than horrizontal. There has to be some studies performed on objects V vs H. I figured someone on this sight would know the answer.
Thank you,
 
  • #13
Is shooting in the vertical position creating more of a "plumb bob" effect?
That was my first thought, but ...
I'll guess it has to do with relationship of handgrip to cross member.

In one configuratoin they're both in vertical plane
and in other handgrip is vertical but crossmember horizontal, so center of handgrip is more closely in line with cg of whole bow i'd think..

Probably one of those "couples" we studied in freshman physics.


just a guess, hope it triggers somebody's thinking cap.

old jim
 
  • #14
jim hardy said:
That was my first thought, but ...
I'll guess it has to do with relationship of handgrip to cross member.

In one configuratoin they're both in vertical plane
and in other handgrip is vertical but crossmember horizontal, so center of handgrip is more closely in line with cg of whole bow i'd think..

Probably one of those "couples" we studied in freshman physics.


just a guess, hope it triggers somebody's thinking cap.

old jim

Now your getting it!
That is what I am looking for, but some documented or publiished proof that it is or something like is true.
Please keep trying,
Jerry
 
  • #15
JAG1118 said:
No, the sights are not the issue. I use a simple pin and a peep when shooting in the vertical position and use a powered scope in Horizontal, the same bow. As I stated before, vertical, compound bow, shooters typically out shoot horizontal, crossbow, shooter. I am wondering if it has to do with the vertical orientation being more balanced and controllable than horrizontal. There has to be some studies performed on objects V vs H. I figured someone on this sight would know the answer.
Thank you,

With respect, you did not answer the specific questions in my reply. I am a championship pistol shot, and a pretty accomplished vertical compound bow shot. I think I can help answer your questions, but only if you answer my specific questions.
 
Last edited:
  • #16
Thanks Jerry

i jumbled thoughts while typing...

CG and handgrip's center of effort are more closely aligned on a vertical bow i'd think, draw a view from rear...but it's not yet clear in my head how all those torques sum up.
I'm not one of the sharper tacks here at PhysicsForum ,,
and it's past my bedtime.

Do you conciously twist on the handgrip to keep bow vertical, and push it sideways for aim? Those two actions will interact differently on the two configurations, i think, due to couples..

Will look in again. I learn a lot that way.

EDIT Berkeman IS among the sharpest here - listen well to his input.
And I've never shot one of those things.

old jim
 
Last edited:
  • #17
berkeman said:
With respect, you did not answer the specific questions in my reply. I am a championship pistol shot, and a pretty accomplished vertical compound bow shot. I think I can help answer your questions, but only if you answer my specific questions.

Hi Berkman,
Please ask me the question in a different way, I answered the best I understood it. But as I said
sighting is not the issue. I am trying to prove that vertical, compound bow, shooters are out shooting the horizontal, crossbow, shooters due to shooting a vertical bow and it being more balanced and controllable because it is V and not H. Is that your experience? or have you not shot any crossbows before?
 
  • #18
I think your chasing your tail, I don't know where you get your data or idea that one type of bow is better than another and that there's a scientific reason for it.

If you give me the horizontal cross bow which you think is harder to shoot, and let me practice for a couple weeks I'd shoot it as good as you with your choice of bows.

Maybe it's more simple, Maybe the better shooters with tons of practice and experience just feel more comfortable with a vertical bow, so that's what they shoot, they'd probably be just as good with a horizontal bow.
And help us out here, are you a competition shooter? or just plinking around with your buddies?
 
  • #19
JAG1118 said:
Hi Berkman,
Please ask me the question in a different way, I answered the best I understood it. But as I said
sighting is not the issue. I am trying to prove that vertical, compound bow, shooters are out shooting the horizontal, crossbow, shooters due to shooting a vertical bow and it being more balanced and controllable because it is V and not H. Is that your experience? or have you not shot any crossbows before?

This isn't an archery forum so I very much doubt many of us will have fired crossbows. I'm not even sure of their legal status where I live.

We believe the laws of physics apply equally wherever you are in the universe - so that doesn't account for any difference between H and V.

Any difference will be because not all of the system is being rotated between H and V. So no surprise if they interact differently. In rifle shooting it's well known that the prone position is more accurate than the standing. I don't see why it should be a surprise that crossbows behave differently in H and V. The reasons are likely to be complex.
 
  • #20
OK,
Lets try this. Would it take less work or effort to control , let's say, a 24 oz solid rod 48" long, 1' in diameter in V or H? It seems to me that finding the center point is so critical when in the H orientation and not so in V. I am trying to establish, as a manufacturer of archery equipment, that, as all archers know and have proven, shooting a bow V is more accurate and more consistent than H (freehanded). I know this is not an Archery Forum, but I have come to you guys to see if ithis can be explained in technical terms, or am I "chasing my tail".
Sorry if I have confused you guys,
Jerry
 
  • #21
JAG1118 said:
OK,
Lets try this. Would it take less work or effort to control , let's say, a 24 oz solid rod 48" long, 1' in diameter in V or H?

Ok here is an idea. For a rod the moment of inertia will be different for each axis. It will have a greater moment of inertial when rotated end-over-end than around it's long axis.

This would suggest that a vertical bow might be more stable/accurate in elevation than direction. Where as a horizontal bow might be more stable/accurate in direction rather than elevation.

If I was designing a bow I'd be thinking of adding weights on rods to increase the moment of inertial for all three axis. Google images suggests they typically only have one rod projecting forwards, but some appear to have them in other planes...

-photo-archer-pulls-on-the-sport-bow-string-taking-aim-at-his-target-at-the-competition-53205541.jpg
 
  • #22
Taking the idea to extreem... Could you mount the bow in a frame big enough for the archer to stand in as well? Obviously you wouldn't be allowed to have it resting on the ground but a big cubic frame with masses at all 8 corners would add a lot of stability in all planes.
 
  • #23
CWatters,

Would the bow YOU designed be V or H, all things being equal? Obviously stabilizer rod can and are added for more stability, but we are talking bare bow. No bells or whistles.
Thank you for your participation it is greatly appreciated.
Jerry
 
  • #24
berkeman said:
Do you notice a difference in sight movement between the two orientations as you hold and release? If your sight wander is the same between the two, maybe there is a difference in the tolerance of the jump in the hold for the two orientations...?

JAG1118 said:
Hi Berkman,
Please ask me the question in a different way, I answered the best I understood it. But as I said
sighting is not the issue. I am trying to prove that vertical, compound bow, shooters are out shooting the horizontal, crossbow, shooters due to shooting a vertical bow and it being more balanced and controllable because it is V and not H. Is that your experience? or have you not shot any crossbows before?

So my first question was about sight wander. In pistol shooting, for example, you will never be able to hold the pistol totally steady when shooting freehand. The sights have some wander to them, and your job is to minimize the wander. You typically have some goal in containing the wander, like say the 8-ring or better. So I was asking if you notice a quantitative difference in your sight wander between when you shoot your vertical bow versus your horizontal bow. Or do both sight pictures seem to have the exact same sight wander?

And then I asked about whether the jump in the hold is different as the arrow is released. Do you notice that the vertical orientation is smoother at release (it looks like you have been addressing this 2nd point some in the recent posts).

Also, is there a pattern to the difference in accuracy? Like, are the crossbow shots uniformly distributed across the target, or is the pattern spread in vertical or horizontal more?
 
Last edited:
  • #25
JAG1118 said:
CWatters,

Would the bow YOU designed be V or H, all things being equal?

I can't answer that as i don't know what's required to maximise accuracy.

I have similar question to that which berkeman asked...

Looking at google images of standard vertically fired competition bows the stabalizer rods normally seem to point forwards. If you set up such a bow and then remove the stabalizer rod would the grouping get wider or taller or both?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #26
I had never seen a vertical crossbow before looking it up just now, but if you have
ever seen a slow motion video of an arrow being fired, it appears to oscillate on the
same axes as the string.
A bolt while shorter and stiffer may still have oscillations.
If the oscillations are on a vertical plane, the inaccuracy would look like
more or less drop, if the oscillation were on a horizontal the inaccuracy would show
up as an error off the center line.
This is just an idea and may be way off the mark.
Some of the new HD video cameras have a slow motion function, it might be worth a watch.
 
  • #27
berkeman said:
So my first question was about sight wander. In pistol shooting, for example, you will never be able to hold the pistol totally steady when shooting freehand. The sights have some wander to them, and your job is to minimize the wander. You typically have some goal in containing the wander, like say the 8-ring or better. So I was asking if you notice a quantitative difference in your sight wander between when you shoot your vertical bow versus your horizontal compound bow. Or do both sight pictures seem to have the exact same sight wander?

And then I asked about whether the jump in the hold as the arrow is released. Do you notice that the vertical orientation is smoother at release (it looks like you have been addressing this 2nd point some in the recent posts).

Also, is there a pattern to the difference in accuracy? Like, are the crossbow shots uniformly distributed across the target, or is the pattern spread in vertical or horizontal more?

No, the sights (peep and Pin) would be the same and I have tried a powered scope H and I still can not get the accuracy like in V. I have not noticed a pattern, the arrows are scattered. My groups V at a 100yds were scattered but they were grouped pretty tight. When I shoot it horizontally they are much more scatterd. It all comes down to holding the bow steady. All though as you know it all has an effect, even what you have had to eat can make a difference in how steady you can hold on the target. I experience has been consistent when compairing H to V.
 
  • #28
Are the H & V bows of equal power, with equal weight and length arrows?
 
  • #29
CWatters said:
I can't answer that as i don't know what's required to maximise accuracy.

I have similar question to that which berkeman asked...

Looking at google images of standard vertically fired competition bows the stabalizer rods normally seem to point forwards. If you set up such a bow and then remove the stabalizer rod would the grouping get wider or taller or both?

CW,
Holding the bow at time of shot is going to maximize your accuracy. The front stabilizer primarly controls the side to side torque of the hand grip eliminating mostly L and R error.
 
  • #30
berkeman said:
Are the H & V bows of equal power, with equal weight and length arrows?

Same bow and same arrows. everything equal.
I was speaking with an engineer buddy today and I asked him about it, he brought up a good point. If an object, let's say a rod, was vertical, anything above center would hang down and find it resting point very quickly and even if you were hold it below center it would be very easy and take very little effort to keep it straight unless it was tilted significantly. It makes since to me.
I believe that is why it can be shot more accuratly in V.
What do you think.
 
  • #31
johnbbahm said:
I had never seen a vertical crossbow before looking it up just now, but if you have
ever seen a slow motion video of an arrow being fired, it appears to oscillate on the
same axes as the string.
A bolt while shorter and stiffer may still have oscillations.
If the oscillations are on a vertical plane, the inaccuracy would look like
more or less drop, if the oscillation were on a horizontal the inaccuracy would show
up as an error off the center line.
This is just an idea and may be way off the mark.
Some of the new HD video cameras have a slow motion function, it might be worth a watch.

Hi John,
That is a good point, but I am shooting the same bow in V and H and the patterns are basically the same but much larger when I shoot it in The H position.
 
  • #32
Can you try hanging a vertical stabilizer rod from the horizontal bow to help keep it more horizontal?
 
  • #33
JAG1118 said:
Hi John,
That is a good point, but I am shooting the same bow in V and H and the patterns are basically the same but much larger when I shoot it in The H position.
Hi Jag,
It's not the bow, but how the bolt is pushed out, I think the oscillation
may be lined up with the string, so the V has the error in the vertical,
while the H has the error in the horizontal.
 
  • #34
berkeman said:
Can you try hanging a vertical stabilizer rod from the horizontal bow to help keep it more horizontal?

I am sure that would help, I have to try it to see. I am trying to keep everything equal and adding a stabilizer is defeating the purpose of this thread, the difference in balance with H and V. I was looking for some scientific terminology that might help me with my question. There has to be test that have been done on objects for compairson. Right?
Thank you Berkman,
 
Last edited:

1. How does the orientation of a crossbow affect its accuracy?

The orientation of a crossbow can greatly impact its accuracy. When the crossbow is held horizontally, the arrow will travel in a straighter path and have better accuracy compared to when it is held vertically. This is because holding the crossbow horizontally distributes the weight more evenly, resulting in less torque and a more stable shot.

2. Does the dominant hand affect the orientation of a crossbow?

Yes, the dominant hand can affect the orientation of a crossbow. For right-handed individuals, holding the crossbow with the left hand and pulling the string with the right hand (known as the "standard" or "American" grip) is the most common and recommended orientation for accuracy. However, for left-handed individuals, the opposite orientation may feel more natural and comfortable.

3. Can the orientation of a crossbow affect its shooting distance?

Yes, the orientation of a crossbow can affect its shooting distance. Holding the crossbow horizontally can increase the distance that the arrow can travel due to the more stable shot and less torque. This can be especially beneficial for long-range shooting.

4. Is there a specific orientation that is best for hunting with a crossbow?

There is no one specific orientation that is considered the best for hunting with a crossbow. It ultimately depends on the individual's preference and what feels most comfortable and stable for them. However, many hunters prefer the horizontal orientation for its increased accuracy and stability.

5. Are there any tips for improving accuracy with a crossbow's orientation?

Yes, there are a few tips that can help improve accuracy with a crossbow's orientation. First, make sure the crossbow is properly sighted in and adjusted for the shooter's dominant eye. Additionally, practicing proper form and grip can greatly impact accuracy. It can also be helpful to experiment with different orientations to find the one that works best for the individual's shooting style and preferences.

Similar threads

Replies
4
Views
4K
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • Materials and Chemical Engineering
Replies
4
Views
5K
Replies
18
Views
18K
  • General Discussion
2
Replies
65
Views
8K
Back
Top