A flex-fuel pump in every gas station

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In summary, Senator Biden suggested that every station should have a flex-fuel pump in order to convert the US to alternative fuels. He believes that now is the time to act, due to the high price of crude oil. He suggests that students and others take action by buying flex-fuel cars or converting to alternative fuels at the station.
  • #1
Ivan Seeking
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Senator Biden suggested this on Meet The Press today: Mandate that every station must have a flex-fuel pump.

This sounds like a very tempting idea. Whether the best approach or not, I think we need to set national goals to convert the US to alternative fuels as the standard within ten years. I also believe that right now we could convert much of the diesel fleet as fast as we can build bio-diesel refineries. But in the case of both diesel and gasoline, IMO, the price of crude makes alternatives competitive and this the time to act.

I been looking and intend to get involved in promoting and assisting the biodiesel industry here in Oregon. I don't know exactly how best to contribute, but I want to start taking action to help this change happen. I also hope to buy a flex-fuel vehicle as our next car.

Suggestions? What can each of us do to help make the change? Where are the opportunties? What can students do? What opportunities exist for science and engineering students in this new growth industry?
 
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  • #2
I think students can do more than anyone.

When my shop closed, I had the option of taking some college courses to help me get a new job. I don't have the math skills for a chem. major, so I'm taking CAD and robotics. Once I have my degree (hopefully "degrees"), I plan to apply for work at the new methenol refinery that just broke ground the month I started school. I'm too old to ever be on the forefront of the new tech, but I could be involved in one of the many millions of jobs it could create. And, if I don't get in at the refinery, maybe I'll try GM or Chrysler, and try to get into the fuelcell work that they're doing.

But these are extreme examples involving devoting one's entire life to this cause. Alternatives could be just shopping for a flex-fuel vehicle the next time you have to buy a car. Or buying your gas at the station that has biofuel. The major fueling stations will get on board as soon as they see that there are financial benifits.
 
  • #3
Why don't more people devote their lives to such causes anyhow? I can see if you're older, but with all the complaining kids out there marching on the street its a surprise there is such a low enrollment in science colleges. No one seems to want to actually work to make a difference.
 
  • #4
They say talk is cheap, but one thing seems to be working. I have been talking with customers and "selling" the idea that biodiesel is great for Oregon. "Wouldn't you prefer giving your money to Oregon farmers, rather than Saudi oil tycoons?"

I see the lights turning on upstairs...
 
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  • #5
Ivan Seeking said:
They say talk is cheap, but one thing seems to be working. I have been talking with customers and "selling" the idea that biodiesel is great for Oregon. "Wouldn't you prefer giving your money to Oregon farmers, rather than Saudi oil tycoons?"

I see the lights turning on upstairs...

And the more people who convert to flex and bio fuels the brighter those lights will shine.

I remember a few years ago when I was in Astoria Oregon I saw a small electric trolley. It had a small flat car hitched to the rear on which was mounted a diesel powered generator. The generator, of course, provided electricity for the trolley.

At the time I thought it was a very novel idea to have a wireless electric trolley. If That diesel generator was to run on bio, if it isn't already, it would be a great example to the public.

This post may not sound political, but it always takes political pressure to get any changes up and running in our society.
 
  • #6
Last night a saw a short story on DSC about a guy who plans to break the world's record for traversing the globe in a boat. A high tech craft that goes under the waves in rough seas, the tail section boldly displays - BIODIESEL. In fact he had to make special arrangements to make biodiesel available at refueling points.

I was too busy to get the name and didn't spot a link, but worth a look. I'll try to find it again later. It is a very cool boat.
 
  • #7
Ivan Seeking said:
They say talk is cheap, but one thing seems to be working. I have been talking with customers and "selling" the idea that biodiesel is great for Oregon. "Wouldn't you prefer giving your money to Oregon farmers, rather than Saudi oil tycoons?"

I see the lights turning on upstairs...

mmm i'd rather see people sold on a scientific basis then a xenophobic basis. Then again I'm far too optimistic of a guy.
 
  • #8
There is nothing wrong with wanting to keep our money at home or helping farmers. The idea of xenophobic is taken way out of context here. In fact it's a unique argument because it completely avoids issues of evironmentalism, which does turn many people off.
 
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  • #9
Ivan Seeking said:
There is nothing wrong with wanting to keep our money at home. The idea of xenophobic is taken way out of context here.

Considering you specifically target Saudi's, i think it's one of the best words for describing such reactions. Maybe racism is a better word however. How about something less barbaric like "Why boost foreign economies when we can strengthen our own?". And why are you avoiding the environmental issues? Keep money a priority and you can still toss in a few environmental snipits here and there and keep people turned... on :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

hey according to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodeisel#Environmental_benefits

Biodiesel is biodegradable and non-toxic - tests sponsored by the United States Department of Agriculture confirm biodiesel is less toxic than table salt and biodegrades as quickly as sugar.
(uncited however)

You can impress them by drinking some then tossing it in an engine :biggrin:
 
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  • #10
Pengwuino said:
You can impress them by drinking some then tossing it in an engine :biggrin:

Well, you can already do that with most any food grade oil and a diesel car as long as you dilute the vegetable oil. I don't recommend drinking too much of the vegetable oil at once though.

For the alterantive fuel extremist, fuel gassification (used in WWII during fuel shortages) opens up a *huge* variety of possible fuel sources you could run an engine off of just about anything that burns from Anthricite to Zebra Corpses.
 
  • #11
Pengwuino said:
mmm i'd rather see people sold on a scientific basis then a xenophobic basis. Then again I'm far too optimistic of a guy.

Hey what's with you and your apparent love for saudi oil tycoons?:wink: If anyone on this forum even mentions keeping wealth in this coutry the word Xenophobic always pops up.

If bio and flex could just supply 20% of our fuel needs, and that can easily be accomplished, we wouldn't have to start a war in the middle east everytime an Islamic leader passes gas.
 
  • #12
edward said:
Hey what's with you and your apparent love for saudi oil tycoons?:wink: If anyone on this forum even mentions keeping wealth in this coutry the word Xenophobic always pops up.

If bio and flex could just supply 20% of our fuel needs, and that can easily be accomplished, we wouldn't have to start a war in the middle east everytime an Islamic leader passes gas.

Yah why do you guys always bring up xenophobia in your threads :wink:

And can you source a reputable source that says such a thing can "easily" be accomplished?
 
  • #13
Pengwuino said:
Yah why do you guys always bring up xenophobia in your threads :wink:

And can you source a reputable source that says such a thing can "easily" be accomplished?

It depends on what you consider "easily accomplished". The hardest part is convincing politicans to require its availability so that people can make their own choice.

Both bio and alcohol could be mixed with standard fossil fuels at the refineries. Vehicles run great and run clean with a 20% mix with either bio or alcohol. That would accomplish the 20% decrease in use of fossil I mentioned as being easy.

The ideal situation would be to have the "real thing" available at the pumps.

The production process for bio and alcohol is quite simple. Both burn cleaner than regular fossil sources of fuel.
BTW Willy Nelson, the pot smoking , guitar playing old geezer, sells bio in California. Try it you'll like it.:smile:
http://www.wnbiodiesel.com/products.html
http://www.house.gov/etheridge/Press-BiofuelsLegislation.htm [Broken]
 
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  • #14
Pengwuino said:
And can you source a reputable source that says such a thing can "easily" be accomplished?

Can you quantify easily? It's definitely possible for example in Brazil.
 
  • #15
Pengwuino said:
Considering you specifically target Saudi's, i think it's one of the best words for describing such reactions. Maybe racism is a better word however. How about something less barbaric like "Why boost foreign economies when we can strengthen our own?".

Ah, you think using the word Saudi makes it racist? Doesn't that in itself seem a little racist? You could say, UAE, Brazilian, or Texan, and it would work just as well. The real point is to showcase personal wealth of the elite - esp the OPEC elite who have held this country hostage in the past - as opposed to the working farmer.

And why are you avoiding the environmental issues?

Because many people will automatically reject the idea if they think it is good for the environment. Sad but true.

Never sell science when you can talk money.
 
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  • #16
edward said:
Both bio and alcohol could be mixed with standard fossil fuels at the refineries. Vehicles run great and run clean with a 20% mix with either bio or alcohol. That would accomplish the 20% decrease in use of fossil I mentioned as being easy.
One question that comes to mind when discussing bio fuels or ethanol: is it sustainable? Obviously, fossil fuels aren't, so it's not necessarily something that kills the concept, but let's say you got your way and everyone started using a 20% mix of bio or ethanol added to fuels, is there enough farmland to support this? Currently, crops are grown for human food, then the leftover portion inedible for humans is turned into animal feeds. Is there still an excess sufficient for fuel production, and if not, how much new cropland would need to be planted to provide this fuel? Considering how many former farm fields have been sold to developers for building homes, how much land is left to be planted for such a purpose? And, what would be the environmental impact of using that land for crops rather than whatever it's current state is?

Another related concern is if it becomes more profitable for farmers to sell their crops to companies using it to manufacture fuel, what will that do to food costs?

I don't have any answers to these questions at the moment, but before we jump into this based on feel-good reasons, it's worth a deeper look into the long-term economic and environmental impacts if large-scale production of these fuels were implemented. The environmental impact is more than just what's coming out of the tailpipe of the car. If we can really support that sort of growth in the agricultural sector, that's great, but if the demand would quickly outstrip the supply capacity of that sector, then we're in trouble. Has this sort of analysis been done, and if so, where is it available?
 
  • #17
Nope Moonbear. The USA alone would require over half of its entire land area to be able to support itself on bioethanol.


Ooh, real facts here:
wiki wah said:
In 2005, United States gasoline consumption was about 150 billion gallons per year. An acre of corn can produce approximately 200 gallons (gasoline equivalent) per year. The United States would have to place roughly 750 million acres of corn into production to fully meet this demand. For comparison, this is nearly double the total area currently used for all crops in the US (430 million acres) and about one third of the total land area of the United States (2.3 billion acres). There are currently about 80 million acres of corn planted in the United States.
 
  • #18
brewnog said:
Nope Moonbear. The USA alone would require over half of its entire land area to be able to support itself on bioethanol.

Ooh, real facts here:

Yes half to support itself 100%, but only a fraction of that to give us a break from using nearly 100% imported crude. And we don't all have to continue driving 8mpg behemouths. Run the numbers with vehicles that average 40mpg and that land area drops impressivily.

We have become spoiled with the feeling of having 230 HP or more under our right toe. To continue using 20million barrels of cuude per day is not sustainable either. We haven't even looked at developing bio engineered grains grown especially for alcohol or diesel fuel production. Cellulose is also in the running as a biomass fuel producer. Cellulose would include using all waste farm and forest products.

There is a whole new world of possibilities that have never been explored because oil has always been so cheap.

When the price of gasoline gets high enough people will change. Honda dealers can't keep Civics in stock now.
 
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  • #19
But this is all based on the current yields of corn. I wonder what steps are being taken to genetically alter fast growing corn. If you could grow 2-3 times the corn from the same field in one season, you can drastically reduce the amount of land you need to support the consumption rates.
 
  • #20
cyrusabdollahi said:
But this is all based on the current yields of corn. I wonder what steps are being taken to genetically alter fast growing corn. If you could grow 2-3 times the corn from the same field in one season, you can drastically reduce the amount of land you need to support the consumption rates.

Exactly. Sorry I had to go outside and check on my grandson and I didn't notice that you had already posted on the possibility of GE crops when I came back to the desk and edited it into my post.
 
  • #21
Another note, it would be critical that these "fast growing" corn plants require the *same* amount of nutrients from the ground so that they do not exhaust the soil. Where is george washington carver when you need him?
 
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  • #22
  • #24
cyrusabdollahi said:
Another note, it would be critical that these "fast growing" corn plants require the *same* amount of nutrients from the ground so that they do not exhaust the soil. Where is george washington carver when you need him?

I have been thinking about the soil situation. It would be fantastic if GE could come up with some plants that could thrive in poor soil.
 
  • #26
Oak Ridge national Laboratory was working on GE plants that produced higher energy levels. The last link I can find is from 2000. This may have gotten political.:mad:
http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/v33_2_00/bioenergy.htm [Broken]
 
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  • #27
  • #28
Deep-Fried Fuel: A Biodiesel Kitchen Vision
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5698538
Morning Edition, August 24, 2006 · Sometimes we find the stories, sometimes the stories find us. This is one of the latter.

I was getting my hair cut by Gigi Brestle and asking her what she had done for the Fourth of July. She described her visit to Carl's Corner, a wild truck stop outside of Dallas, where Willie Nelson, Shooter Jennings, Leon Russell and dozens of groups had performed. Kinky Friedman was there campaigning, and every biodiesel entrepreneur known to man was sharing their wares. Truckers were filling their tanks with BioWillie, and the barbecue was good.

We had always wanted to include Willie Nelson's infamous July Fourth picnic in Hidden Kitchens. Suddenly, Brestle was opening our eyes to a world we never considered.

. . . .
So biodiesel is slowly become acceptable. It helps to have name recognition.
 
  • #29
Pengwuino said:
You can impress them by drinking some then tossing it in an engine :biggrin:
There's a guy in Jerusalem who collects used vegetable oils from the falafel shops and processes it in a self-made contraption on the back of his ute. He'll trade a liter of oil for a liter of his biodiesel to raise awareness, there are enough people willing to give oil for no return, so he pretty much gets biodiesel for free.
 
  • #30
Probably this belongs in a different thread, but here it is anyway -

Alt Fuels Rule at British International Motor Show
http://spectrum.ieee.org/aug06/4365
 
  • #31
http://renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=45805 [Broken]

On the topic of alternative energy. Just to show that things are being done, although slowly and surely.
 
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  • #32
Yonoz said:
There's a guy in Jerusalem who collects used vegetable oils from the falafel shops and processes it in a self-made contraption on the back of his ute. He'll trade a liter of oil for a liter of his biodiesel to raise awareness, there are enough people willing to give oil for no return, so he pretty much gets biodiesel for free.



Sure, but there's not nearly enough used vegetable oil going free to power even a tenth of the vehicles on the roads. Also, the resultant fuel is of such low quality that you won't find a manufacturer willing to warranty their cars using it.
 
  • #33
Obviously you haven't been keeping up. In the state of Washington, for example, biodiesel is now mandated to replace sulfur additives. All diesel sold in Washington will be [or is] B2. Not only does this eliminate the sulfur, the bio has better lubricity.
 
  • #34
I was wondering about the source of your information. Generally, except for slightly fewer BTUs/ gallon [about the same as gasoline, IIRC], bio is generally considered superior to petro-diesel. From everything that I've seen, it once had a bad reputation for two reason:

1). Causes fuel system failures

This was due to the fact that bio is a good solvent. The plugged filters and fuel injection equip resulted from petro-diesel sludge being cleaned out by the bio. Upon conversion, changes filters frequently until the sludge is removed.

2). Causes deterioration of seals

Allegedly this problem is resolved by the synthetic materials used in modern engines.

Even though bio has slightly less energy density than petro, the far superior lubricity results in approximately the same mileage. I recently confirmed this claim with one bio user in Sacramento. In fact he had expected more, but his mileage barely changed upon conversion.
 
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  • #35
http://www.worldwatch.org/node/4526" [Broken]: The Renewable Path to Energy Security."

Many of the new technologies that harness renewables are, or soon will be, economically competitive with fossil fuels. Dynamic growth rates are driving down costs and spurring rapid advances in technologies. Since 2000, global wind energy generation has more than tripled; solar cell production has risen six-fold; production of fuel ethanol from crops have more than doubled; and biodiesel production has expanded nearly four-fold. Annual global investment in "new" renewable energy has risen almost six-fold since 1995, with cumulative investment over this period nearly $180 billion.[/QUOTE]
 
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<h2>1. What is a flex-fuel pump?</h2><p>A flex-fuel pump is a type of fuel pump that is designed to dispense both traditional gasoline and alternative fuels, such as ethanol or biodiesel.</p><h2>2. Why should gas stations have flex-fuel pumps?</h2><p>Having flex-fuel pumps in every gas station would provide consumers with more options for fueling their vehicles. It would also promote the use of alternative fuels, which can help reduce our dependence on fossil fuels and decrease air pollution.</p><h2>3. How do flex-fuel pumps work?</h2><p>Flex-fuel pumps have special components that allow them to dispense both traditional gasoline and alternative fuels. The pump is able to detect the type of fuel being requested by the consumer and adjust the mixture accordingly.</p><h2>4. Are there any benefits to using flex-fuel pumps?</h2><p>Yes, there are several benefits to using flex-fuel pumps. They provide consumers with more fuel options, which can lead to cost savings. They also promote the use of alternative fuels, which can have environmental and economic benefits.</p><h2>5. Is it expensive to install flex-fuel pumps in gas stations?</h2><p>The cost of installing flex-fuel pumps in gas stations can vary depending on the location and type of pump. However, many gas stations already have the infrastructure in place to support flex-fuel pumps, so the cost may not be as high as expected.</p>

1. What is a flex-fuel pump?

A flex-fuel pump is a type of fuel pump that is designed to dispense both traditional gasoline and alternative fuels, such as ethanol or biodiesel.

2. Why should gas stations have flex-fuel pumps?

Having flex-fuel pumps in every gas station would provide consumers with more options for fueling their vehicles. It would also promote the use of alternative fuels, which can help reduce our dependence on fossil fuels and decrease air pollution.

3. How do flex-fuel pumps work?

Flex-fuel pumps have special components that allow them to dispense both traditional gasoline and alternative fuels. The pump is able to detect the type of fuel being requested by the consumer and adjust the mixture accordingly.

4. Are there any benefits to using flex-fuel pumps?

Yes, there are several benefits to using flex-fuel pumps. They provide consumers with more fuel options, which can lead to cost savings. They also promote the use of alternative fuels, which can have environmental and economic benefits.

5. Is it expensive to install flex-fuel pumps in gas stations?

The cost of installing flex-fuel pumps in gas stations can vary depending on the location and type of pump. However, many gas stations already have the infrastructure in place to support flex-fuel pumps, so the cost may not be as high as expected.

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