Large Project in Europe having a Superconducting Magnet

In summary, an expert summarizer of content found that the large project could be the Large Hadron Collider in Europe, which is being upgraded and will require a cryogenic helium compressor. 6 months to cool down is a long time, and the project might be risky.
  • #1
Q_Goest
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I had a customer looking for some equipment that would be used in Europe to cool down a superconducting magnet that was to be installed there possibly in 2006. It must be an exceptionally massive magnet because he's looking for a very large cryogenic compressor and he says it will take 6 months for the magnet to cool down ! That's absolutely ENORMOUS!

What large project could this be? I have to believe it's an experiment that uses massive superconducting magnets on par with the infamous Superconducting Supercollider of the 1980's.
 
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  • #2
Six months to cool down? What the heck retains heat like that? That's not a magnet, that's a coal fire.

Just between us girls, what kind of flows are we talking here...?
 
  • #3
It's just eosphorus putting together another 'free-energy' contraption.
 
  • #4
Ya know Danger, if it IS a free energy contraption, I'll still be glad to give 'em what they want! 'course, they may blame me for it not workin' then, huh? :confused:

Hey Fred. Yea, could be a coal fire, but they wouldn't use helium to put that one out. I often wondered if you might put out a coal fire with liquid nitrogen, but not helium. Also wondered why they don't just use N2 in gas chambers (for those death row folks) too, much less expensive and no poison crap to clean up, but that's besides the point... They want 200 lbm/hr flow! And yes, they claim they're cooling down something (I'm assuming a magnet for a bunch of reasons).
 
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  • #5
The only possible candidate for that is the LHC at CERN. They are using superconducting magnets.

Zz.
 
  • #6
Tokamak reactor? :bugeye:
 
  • #7
I think you got it Zz. A quick search says the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider" [Broken], so that must be it.

Sorry Danger dude. No Tokamak free energy machines after all. :wink:
 
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  • #8
Q_Goest said:
Sorry Danger dude. No Tokamak free energy machines after all. :wink:
Free energy?! Have you mistaken me for aviator (eosphorus, whatever)?!
I was unaware of the LHC upgrade, and the only thing that I could think of that could require a magnet of that magnitude (pardon the pun) was a magnetic confinement (Tokamak) fusion reactor.
 
  • #9
Danger said:
I was unaware of the LHC upgrade,

Well, it didn't run before, so it's not exactly an "upgrade" :smile:

6 months to cool down, on the other hand, seems very long to me...
 
  • #10
Q_Goest said:
Hey Fred. Yea, could be a coal fire, but they wouldn't use helium to put that one out. I often wondered if you might put out a coal fire with liquid nitrogen, but not helium. Also wondered why they don't just use N2 in gas chambers (for those death row folks) too, much less expensive and no poison crap to clean up, but that's besides the point... They want 200 lbm/hr flow! And yes, they claim they're cooling down something (I'm assuming a magnet for a bunch of reasons).
Those are the kind of projects that are great to get. Just hope that you get the job and have to oversee the installation. That would be rough.

Those colliders are pretty awesome pieces of equipment. I always am amazed at what they do and how much it takes to do it.
 
  • #11
Hey Fred, thanks for the well wishes, I hope we get the job too. Unfortunately my only contribution would be as a sub-subcontractor or something like that. I'd only be responsible for the design of a cryogenic helium compressor so unless something goes wrong with it, I don't suppose I'll get a chance to see the LHC or France or any of that neat stuff.

Hmmm... maybe I should throw a design flaw in the machine so it only lasts for 3 months... :devil:
 
  • #12
Q_Goest said:
Hmmm... maybe I should throw a design flaw in the machine so it only lasts for 3 months... :devil:
Do you work for Gates?

Seriously, though... good luck with the contract. If you score big, you'll have to dig up that Tiki Bar thread and buy us a round. :approve:
 
  • #13
6 months to cool down, on the other hand, seems very long to me...

Hey Vanesch, just noticed your post, sorry. Yea, I was surprised too. And that's just to get the magnet from ambient to -320 F (78 K), which is the temperature of boiling liquid nitrogen. The cooling of a superconducting magnet is actually pretty interesting, though maybe only a geek would be interested! LOL

The heat capacity of materials such as copper and stainless is highly skewed as you probably already know. Most of the heat capacity between LHe temp (-452 F or 4 K) and ambient is at the higher temps. By the time you get down to -320, roughly 91% to 94% of the enthalpy is removed. To get to that temp, helium is circulated through the magnet and through a liquid nitrogen heat exchanger. So the helium is cooled to -320 and is then used to remove heat from the magnet. Once the magnet is at -320 they'll probably start dumping truckloads of liquid helium in. About 40% to 50% will boil away before it gets down to temperature and the cryostat (insulated tank the magnet sits in) gets filled. If it's anything like an MRI magnet, and I have to believe it is, then they have to "ramp up" the magnet which means they put current through the windings. A whole lot more liquid helium boils off during this phase. Finally they have to adjust the magnetic field which will take quite a while. I'd guess from the time they start the cool down to the time the facility can actually be used is on the order of 12 months. I suppose we'll have a long wait for that Higgs boson, or whatever they're looking for! <grin>

Do you work for Gates?
Compressor - version 5.2, will be in the works before version 3.0 gets loaded on the ship. As for the Tiki Bar, I'd prefer mine with REAL ice and a tiny umbrella that spins around when you flik it with your finger ... ahhhhhh :)
 
  • #14
I believe the superconducting magnets for LHC were designed and partially built by Brookhaven based on their knowledge of building large superconducting magnets for RHIC. I also don't think they truck in liquid helium. Rather they will have their own refrigeration units for each cooling station within the closed-loop cycle. If not, they'll be gobbling up the world supply of liquid helium.

Zz.
 
  • #15
I doubt that 6 months is the bare cooldown time. I'm sure there's hundreds of calibration runs and equipment tests that get performed at different temperatures - considering that it's a first-time cooldown.

A typical, careful cooldown for a dilution fridge can take a few days. For an initial cooldown on a new cryostat, it can take a little longer. If you want to calibrate thermometers and such on the way down, it can take still longer.

But 6 months is really long. Sounds like the LHC to me too.
 
  • #16
Gokul43201 said:
I doubt that 6 months is the bare cooldown time.

Normally, each year, there is a winter shutdown - that was the case at least when I was at DESY, where they also have cryogenic magnets for the accelerator. It takes 2 weeks to cool the entire system:

http://www-kryo.desy.de/documents/softwareKRYK/HERA/abkuehl_e.html

Now, the LHC is a bigger machine (HERA is 6 km, LHC is 27 km), but the magnets itself will not be so vastly different...
 
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What is a superconducting magnet?

A superconducting magnet is a device that uses superconducting materials to generate a strong magnetic field. Superconductors are materials that can conduct electricity with zero resistance when cooled below a certain temperature. This allows for the creation of extremely powerful and efficient magnets.

What is the purpose of a superconducting magnet in a large project in Europe?

A superconducting magnet is often used in large projects in Europe, such as particle accelerators, fusion reactors, and MRI machines. These magnets are capable of producing much stronger magnetic fields than traditional magnets, making them essential for these types of projects.

What are the benefits of using a superconducting magnet in a large project?

The use of superconducting magnets in large projects can provide several benefits, including higher magnetic field strengths, increased energy efficiency, and the ability to reach extremely low temperatures. These magnets also have a longer lifespan and require less maintenance compared to traditional magnets.

What are the challenges associated with using a superconducting magnet?

Although superconducting magnets have many advantages, they also come with some challenges. These magnets require extremely low temperatures to function, which can be expensive and difficult to maintain. They also require specialized equipment and expertise to construct and operate, making them more complex and costly compared to traditional magnets.

What advancements have been made in superconducting magnet technology for large projects in Europe?

In recent years, there have been significant advancements in superconducting magnet technology, making them more powerful and efficient. Scientists are also exploring new materials and designs to further improve the performance and reliability of these magnets. Additionally, efforts are being made to increase the operating temperature of superconducting materials to make them more practical for everyday use.

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