If East Germany Could Secure Their Border So Can America

[skeptic2]

Quite frankly, if it's easy to cross the border to work or become a citizen legally, then it coould be assumed that people sneaking across at that point would be doing something that is illegal.

Your premise is faulty. It is not easy to cross the border to work or become a citizen legally. Certainly it is much more difficult than to cross the border to go shopping or visit relatives.

 

[WhoWee]

Except there obviously is.

And I don't think smuggling drugs, or the suspicion there of, is deserving of death.

Again, read my post and stay in context - then explain why someone would need to sneak across the border in light of well-planned immigration reform. My post is focused on Congress taking the issue seriously - not ptomoting executions/mass slaughter.

 

[WhoWee]

Your premise is faulty. It is not easy to cross the border to work or become a citizen legally. Certainly it is much more difficult than to cross the border to go shopping or visit relatives.

Again, read my posts in context.

 

[Siv]

I don't know if there is necessarilly a "rationale" to it, that's just how humans are. Irish are proud, English are proud, Scottish are proud, Italians are proud, Germans are proud, Greeks are proud, etc...

Oh sure. We all feel it. Its a strong genetic program, this need to identify with one group and think its the best, and that other groups are bad or not good enough.

But there is no rationale behind this warm fuzzy feeling. And its not a harmless one. The strong feelings that come about because of the accident of your being born in a certain latitude/longitude can sometimes result in serious harm.

As Dawkins says, given human nature, the fewer differentiating labels we have, the better.

 

[Siv]

Wow! Please keep my post in context.

Specifically, "A completed fence and a shoot first and ask questions later approach might be feasible as part of a serious immigration reform package - it MIGHT just force the politicians to think about the unintended consequences of their legislation. "

My point is this, we have a serious problem with illegal immigration, smuggling/trafficking, and(possibly) terrorist activites (?). It has become a political issue, costs are enormous, and nobody seems to have a comprehensive solution.

Actually some of the most dangerous terrorists are those who have entered the country legally.

 

[Galteeth]

Again, read my post and stay in context - then explain why someone would need to sneak across the border in light of well-planned immigration reform. My post is focused on Congress taking the issue seriously - not ptomoting executions/mass slaughter.

Ok, let's think about the point of view of a hypothetical Mexican. You see a future of poverty and hard labor, with little job security. You live in constant fear of violence from drug gangsters. Your government is corrupt. You have little education. You have heard there is a place where a better life is possible. You don't have knowledge of the official process, or the means to request it.

 

[Char. Limit]

Ok, let's think about the point of view of a hypothetical Mexican. You see a future of poverty and hard labor, with little job security. You live in constant fear of violence from drug gangsters. Your government is corrupt. You have little education. You have heard there is a place where a better life is possible. You don't have knowledge of the official process, or the means to request it.

So you find out, get a green card, and wait a few years before becoming a citizen and voting and working for a living in this great nation.

I can see the dream now.

 

[skeptic2]

Char.Limit, it's more than a few years they would have to wait. First in line are spouses and close relatives, next are those with higher education and special skills. Ordinary laborers that don't meet any of the special conditions are at the bottom of the list and may never get in.

 

[CAC1001]

Oh sure. We all feel it. Its a strong genetic program, this need to identify with one group and think its the best, and that other groups are bad or not good enough.

Why do you keep regarding a person having pride in their culture/ethnicity/region/country etc...as this person thinking their group is the "best?" I said Irish are proud, Germans are proud, Italians are proud, etc...doesn't mean any of them think of themselves as "the best."

 

[Siv]

Why do you keep regarding a person having pride in their culture/ethnicity/region/country etc...as this person thinking their group is the "best?" I said Irish are proud, Germans are proud, Italians are proud, etc...doesn't mean any of them think of themselves as "the best."

Oh come on.
You're proud to be American, because all countries are equally good, with America as good as Britain and India and ... :uhh:

 

[WhoWee]

Ok, let's think about the point of view of a hypothetical Mexican. You see a future of poverty and hard labor, with little job security. You live in constant fear of violence from drug gangsters. Your government is corrupt. You have little education. You have heard there is a place where a better life is possible. You don't have knowledge of the official process, or the means to request it.

One option would be to cross the border into California. Unfortunately, the unemployment rate is high and drug gangs control the Mexican neighborhoods.
The good news is that food stamps, subsidized housing, free health care, free education are all very possible.
I believe the "American Dream" has evolved.

 

[Char. Limit]

Char.Limit, it's more than a few years they would have to wait. First in line are spouses and close relatives, next are those with higher education and special skills. Ordinary laborers that don't meet any of the special conditions are at the bottom of the list and may never get in.

So streamline the process, don't allow people to break the law to come in here.

 

[CAC1001]

Oh come on.
You're proud to be American, because all countries are equally good, with America as good as Britain and India and ... :uhh:

Some countries are better than others, but that is not based on patriotism, that is just based on facts. You can very much say, "Mexico may be a crappy country, but it's still MY country, and I am a proud Mexican."

I am proud to be American because of many things about America and what it has accomplished. Doesn't mean America is perfect or had any perfect history (treatment of native Americans, slavery, Jim Crow, etc...).

 

[skeptic2]

So streamline the process, don't allow people to break the law to come in here.

That's what I was trying to do in post #66. I think most illegals come here to make more money than they could at home but are not interested in becoming citizens except to become legal. There are a few that have heard that in the US it's possible to go on welfare and live without working. Fortunately a work visa would prevent that.

The advantage of a work visa over a higher fence and stiffer penalties is that it is offering a carrot for obeying the law instead of a stick for breaking it.

 

[Galteeth]

Actually some of the most dangerous terrorists are those who have entered the country legally.

Yes, generally terrorists don't sneak across the border.

 

[ThomasT]

As several posters have stated, the fact that the Soviet Union was able to pretty effectively secure the East German border doesn't entail that the US can secure its southern border (not just the US-Mexican border per se) enough to significantly decrease the flow of illegal immigrants from Mexico, Central and South America, etc. Securing the southern US border would entail a certain level of militarization of that border and more or less drastic measures. My guess is that the US won't commit to this and that current trends will continue.

Some off topic considerations:

So, assuming that the immigration rate, legal and illegal, of Spanish speaking people remains about the same as the best guesses put it at now, then what sort of demographic changes can be expected in the US during the next few generations? What's a reasonable expectation value of the sustained growth rate of the US's Spanish speaking population? Then, given that assumption, what will the number of Spanish speaking US residents be in, say, 2060?

Another guess is that the US seems destined to become a predominantly Spanish speaking country.

 

[WhoWee]

As several posters have stated, the fact that the Soviet Union was able to pretty effectively secure the East German border doesn't entail that the US can secure its southern border (not just the US-Mexican border per se) enough to significantly decrease the flow of illegal immigrants from Mexico, Central and South America, etc. Securing the southern US border would entail a certain level of militarization of that border and more or less drastic measures. My guess is that the US won't commit to this and that current trends will continue.

Some off topic considerations:

So, assuming that the immigration rate, legal and illegal, of Spanish speaking people remains about the same as the best guesses put it at now, then what sort of demographic changes can be expected in the US during the next few generations? What's a reasonable expectation value of the sustained growth rate of the US's Spanish speaking population? Then, given that assumption, what will the number of Spanish speaking US residents be in, say, 2060?

Another guess is that the US seems destined to become a predominantly Spanish speaking country.

Logistically speaking, Canada has a great deal of open space. I think we should build a very fast train from the southern border to the northern border as soon as possible. Canada already speaks 2 languages, the assimilation will be smoother.

 

[mheslep]

As several posters have stated, the fact that the Soviet Union was able to pretty effectively secure the East German border doesn't entail that the US can secure its southern border (not just the US-Mexican border per se) enough to significantly decrease the flow of illegal immigrants from Mexico, Central and South America, etc. Securing the southern US border would entail a certain level of militarization of that border and more or less drastic measures. [...]

The record of the fence so far indicates otherwise.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5323928
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2943534&postcount=35
On what do you base your statement?

 

[ThomasT]

The record of the fence so far indicates otherwise.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5323928
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=2943534&postcount=35
On what do you base your statement?

Yes, thanks for the links. But it's a very big border and there are lots of people who want to get into the US. My statement was that I don't think that the US will commit to what's necessary to significantly reduce the flow of illegal immigrants. It's just an opinion, and since it's an empirical consideration then, eventually, we'll see.

By the way, I don't consider the 'Latinization' of the current US a bad thing. After all, the current US is just a geographical location which has been populated/dominated by various cultures throughout history. My current opinion is that the dominant culture of the US, by say, 2060, will be Hispanic, not Anglo-Saxon.

 

[ThomasT]

Logistically speaking, Canada has a great deal of open space. I think we should build a very fast train from the southern border to the northern border as soon as possible. Canada already speaks 2 languages, the assimilation will be smoother.

But it's really cold in Canada.

 

[WhoWee]

But it's really cold in Canada.

I suppose the train could move the thin-skinned folks south for the winter?

 

[CAC1001]

By the way, I don't consider the 'Latinization' of the current US a bad thing. After all, the current US is just a geographical location which has been populated/dominated by various cultures throughout history. My current opinion is that the dominant culture of the US, by say, 2060, will be Hispanic, not Anglo-Saxon.

If they do not assimilate into the mainstream culture and basically turn America into Mexico, it will be a bad thing.

 

[NobodySpecial]

If they do not assimilate into the mainstream culture and basically turn America into Mexico, it will be a bad thing.

You could still follow the German model and put the fence down the middle, Texas, New mexico, southern-California, Nevada, and Arizona on one side and the rest on the other.

 

[lisab]

If they do not assimilate into the mainstream culture and basically turn America into Mexico, it will be a bad thing.

Are you sure?

Most Mexicans I know (I grew up in California, I've known plenty) are family-oriented and hard working. Really, Mexican core values aren't very different from American core values.

Of course, the corruption and drug wars wouldn't be so good :tongue2:.

Besides, generally by the second or third generation, they're assimilated. Who cares what language they speak at home?

 

[Char. Limit]

Are you sure?

Most Mexicans I know (I grew up in California, I've known plenty) are family-oriented and hard working. Really, Mexican core values aren't very different from American core values.

Of course, the corruption and drug wars wouldn't be so good :tongue2:.

Besides, generally by the second or third generation, they're assimilated. Who cares what language they speak at home?

M.E.Ch.A. is something I don't like...

 

[NobodySpecial]

Another guess is that the US seems destined to become a predominantly Spanish speaking country.

I always wondered why all the towns/rivers/mountains etc in the south-western United States were named in Spanish.

 

[turbo]

Is there a good reason for this thread to continue? East Germans wanted to prevent defections and the SW border nuts want to prevent immigration. These are not congruent goals, despite Joe Miller's to conflate them.

 

[mheslep]

If they do not assimilate into the mainstream culture and basically turn America into Mexico, it will be a bad thing.

...Besides, generally by the second or third generation, they're assimilated. ...

 

[lisab]

CAC1001 says if they don't assimilate, it's bad - I agree. My point is, they generally *do* assimilate - certainly by the third generation, at the latest.

 

[mheslep]

CAC1001 says if they don't assimilate, it's bad - I agree. My point is, they generally *do* assimilate - certainly by the third generation, at the latest.

In the past yes. Increasingly I read of communities where there's no encouragement to do so. Three generations is far too long, I think. I expect it indeed takes far longer to assimilate if an immigrant i) comes here illegally, or ii) resides in communities where assimilation is frowned upon.

 

[lisab]

In the pass yes. Increasingly I read of communities where there's no encouragement to do so. Three generations is far too long, I think. I expect it indeed takes far longer to assimilate if an immigrant i) comes here illegally, or ii) resides in communities where assimilation is frowned upon.

That's quite possible, but I don't know of such groups where I live. The immigrants I knew growing up were mostly Mexican, and most were assimilated by the second generation, or at least bi-cultural.

Where I live now there's a crush of them from eastern Europe, and they're assimilating extremely quickly.

I've read assimilation is becoming an issue in some places in Europe - perhaps the immigrant communities there have reached a critical mass, making assimilation unnecessary? Just a guess.

 

[WhoWee]

Is there a good reason for this thread to continue? East Germans wanted to prevent defections and the SW border nuts want to prevent immigration. These are not congruent goals, despite Joe Miller's to conflate them.

The train could also make a few stops in Maine if you like?

 

[mheslep]

I've read assimilation is becoming an issue in some places in Europe - perhaps the immigrant communities there have reached a critical mass, making assimilation unnecessary? Just a guess.

Since I believe the American and Western culture are worth preserving, it's history of earlier immigrants included, then assimilation is always required and never unnecessary. If immigrant communities grow too fast or too isolated, then immigration needs to be slowed down, for awhile.

 

[NobodySpecial]

CAC1001 says if they don't assimilate, it's bad - I agree. My point is, they generally *do* assimilate - certainly by the third generation, at the latest.

Not always - I understand many of the english immigrants still haven't learned any native languages after 400 years

 

[edward]

If the can't go over the fence they go under it.

The 1,800-foot tunnel is the 75th discovered on the U.S.-Mexico border since 2006, according to John Morton, director of ICE. The lighted and ventilated passageway connects two warehouses east of the Otay Mesa border crossing, a two-story building in Tijuana and another warehouse in San Diego.

Read more: http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7020435119?U.S.-Mexico%20Drug%20Tunnel%20Found,%2040%20Tons%20Of%20Marijuana%20Seized#ixzz14N91MhlA


http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7020435119?U.S.-Mexico%20Drug%20Tunnel%20Found,%2040%20Tons%20Of%20Marijuana%20Seized