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RingoKid
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...a good one as opposed to a bad one ?
Are you suggesting mystics need not apply?Tom Mattson said:First and foremost, I would say a firm grasp of formal logic is required to be a good philosopher of any sort.
Iacchus32 said:Are suggesting mystics need not apply?
Tom Mattson said:I am suggesting that mystics without a firm grasp of formal logic need not apply.
And yet what if one were to witness an event, formal logic or no, which cannot be validated by empirical means (is this what you mean by formal logic?), would that make it any less true? The truth is the truth isn't it?Tom Mattson said:I am suggesting that mystics without a firm grasp of formal logic need not apply.
Iacchus32 said:And yet what if one were to witness an event, formal logic or no, which cannot be validated by empirical means (is this what you mean by formal logic?), would that make it any less true? The truth is the truth isn't it?
Yes, but what if the explanation doesn't seem rational or, is unexplainable in empirical terms? Does that make a person wacko for having experienced it or, less credible in other words? This is really I'm all trying to get at. I mean how do we in fact know that anybody is telling the truth, if all we have to base it upon is empirical evidence? How do we truly tell what another person has experienced?Tom Mattson said:"Formal logic" has nothing to do with "empirical means". Formal logic has to do with being rational. And yes, the truth is the truth. But simply having witnessed actual events or holding to some metaphysical truth by epistemic luck does not a metaphysician make.
Yes, I agree. In order to peer inside of oneself, one has to be able to "pinpoint" what one is looking at. And yes, you have to have a pretty good idea of what you're looking at.Canute said:Yes, mystics also have to reason. As Les Sleeth's signature says, 'introspectionists should make sense'. All introspective traditions encourage the use of reason, even though they assert that reason alone cannot bring understanding.
And yet quite often it entails the process or, experience, and rarely does anything come about simply because you say, "Well, I would seriously like to examine this" ... the fact that you're too serious or, sure of yourself being a sign of bias. Basically it's something which is developed to the extent that you work with it (and no, it's best not to be too formal) and, if you're fortunate enough to be grounded in what you're doing (not totally wacko), perhaps you can begin to speak about it in the pragmatic sense?But I'd go for intellectual honesty as the key job specification. Without that one is likely to be stuck with one's assumptions and get no further. To investigate metaphysics properly requires giving up any habitual ideas about what is true and what is not true, and work with an open mind from first principles. It's not an easy thing to do, because it means accepting what your reason tells you even if this threatens or destroys your most cherished beliefs.
Iacchus32 said:And yet what if one were to witness an event, formal logic or no, which cannot be validated by empirical means (is this what you mean by formal logic?), would that make it any less true? The truth is the truth isn't it?
Iacchus32 said:Yes, but what if the explanation doesn't seem rational
or, is unexplainable in empirical terms?
Does that make a person wacko for having experienced it or, less credible in other words?
Actually I was thinking more in terms of a dream or a vision, where no one else has access to it. It's not provable in our world of reality. As for the term metaphysician, I was just guessing at what the heck that was all about. I just figured it was somebody who was into spiritualism and what not, and used that as a means to finding answers.loseyourname said:Doesn't the witnessing of an event make that event empirical?
Anyway, as I posted in the other thread in general discussion, shouldn't the term be metaphysicist? Metaphysician describes a faith-healer, if you ask me.
RingoKid said:...a good one as opposed to a bad one ?
Les Sleeth said:Then, to answer your question about good and bad metaphysics . . . I'd say good is someone patient and determined enough to try to experience what is most basic, and bad is someone willing to posit a theory about what is most basic and then defend it without ever having experienced what they say is true.
loseyourname said:You know, it's interesting that you say that, because historically speaking, the study of metaphysics has been almost entirely rational rather than empirical. One might even argue that metaphysics has mostly been the study of that which cannot be experienced. At least this is true in the western tradition. Certainly it has been different in the eastern world.
RingoKid said:...a good one as opposed to a bad one ?
Metaphysics is a branch of philosophy that explores the nature of reality and being. It seeks to understand the fundamental principles and underlying truths that govern the universe and our existence.
Metaphysics is often considered the most abstract and speculative branch of philosophy, as it deals with concepts that cannot be directly observed or measured. It also differs from other branches of philosophy, such as ethics or epistemology, in that it focuses on the study of being and reality rather than human behavior or knowledge.
A metaphysician is someone who studies metaphysics and engages in philosophical discussions and debates about the nature of reality and being. They may also use rational and logical reasoning to explore abstract concepts and theories about the universe and existence.
While metaphysics and science both seek to understand the nature of reality, they use different methods of inquiry. Science relies on empirical evidence and experimentation, while metaphysics relies on philosophical reasoning and contemplation. Therefore, metaphysics is not considered a science in the traditional sense, but it can complement scientific inquiry and provide a deeper understanding of the world.
Metaphysics is important because it helps us to question and explore our existence and the world around us. It allows us to contemplate the bigger questions in life and seek a deeper understanding of reality. Metaphysical theories and concepts also have practical applications in fields such as ethics, theology, and even science.