Helping Unprepared Students: The Ironies and Challenges

[dkotschessaa]

I can't tell you how many times I started to post here, "had no idea where to start," then started filling out the template, then answered my own question and didn't have to post it.

-Dave K

 

[arildno]

I can't tell you how many times I started to post here, "had no idea where to start," then started filling out the template, then answered my own question and didn't have to post it.

-Dave K

Very often, just LISTING the variables explicitly, rather than let them float about in the brain is just the nudge one needs to organize the thoughts..

 

[Mark44]

Well arildno, I'm a little disappointed you're so unsympathetic to this matter with a "just let them drown" attitude. Sometimes they really don't have a clue I believe, no thoughts, no relevant equations, no pin-points, no nothing. But if we could just give them a nudge, just get them over the top, past the critical point, they might blossom!

Speaking as a mentor here, if a new member (say 0 to 10 or 20 posts) posts a question that shows no effort (and typically without using the homework template), the usual practice is to give the poster a warning (0 points) that goes away after a couple of weeks. Most of us have a boilerplate message that encourages them to repost their question with some indication of an effort or something that indicates they have given some thought to the problem. If I get to the thread after another member has responded, I will usually leave the thread in place, but otherwise I'll delete the thread.

I'm usually a bit more lenient for members who have a more extensive posting history, providing that they haven't received a slew of notices/infractions for unacceptable homework posts, and will often give them a hint or push to get them a little further along.

Occasionally we see students who, for one reason or another, just don't get it. It might be that they didn't take the prerequisite classes, or did poorly in them, and just don't realize that mathematics, unlike many other courses of study, is cumulative. If a student does only middling well in a precursor course, he or she is likely to do even worse in a follow-on course. I was involved in a thread just this week that was started by a student who was unable to make any progress in a problem without having errors pointed out and being spoon-fed the next steps. After the thread had gone on for nearly 40 posts, the OP was still unable to make any progress without his or her week showing pretty basic mistakes. Both the HH who was involved in the thread and I finally gave up in frustration. Obviously this was not a student who needed merely a nudge to get going. When students are in a class that they are completely unprepared for, I encourage them to put in some effort at reviewing the concepts of earlier classes, or maybe rethinking their goals.

Part of our difficulty as mentors is that we get so many new members who completely disregard our posted rules, and appear to want someone to work the problem for them. Some of them believe that they can learn something by looking at someone else's work. That's not a philosophy that we put much credence in here at PF.

I know I'm right about this matter and would hope one day PF could relax the rules a bit.

 

[OmCheeto]

I can't tell you how many times I started to post here, "had no idea where to start," then started filling out the template, then answered my own question and didn't have to post it.

-Dave K

Why didn't I think of that? Probably because I wasn't in school. Looking back at them, my first threads looked suspiciously like disguised homework problems. Great feedback though:

This is a terrbile title for a thread- it tells us nothing about what is being asked.
...

Noted to newbie self: Don't be a comedian, these people are seriously smart.

ps. That question was actually never solved. I was just randomly pushing buttons to see what they did. (It was my 2nd day at the forum.) Then I couldn't find the "Unsolved" button.
pps. And thank god I joined the forum the day Wolram started his thread. I thought his was a very good question.

 

[jackmell]

I think they'll solve it now. I checked the thread. My complements to the homework helpers; you have accomplished your mission and they didn't even need my expertise in the matter.

I was just concerned.

I'm moving on now and will get back to a wonderfully beautiful problem I'm working on that I have no idea, not exactly anyway, how to solve. :)

 

[vela]

Please don't attribute this to laziness. As a frequent poster in homework help section, I do have sometimes "no idea" to begin with but that doesn't mean I am being lazy. For instance, I posted the following thread yesterday:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=716088

After the hints, I did take the time to post my complete attempt. I hope you don't call that laziness.

I wanted to note that you actually didn't have no idea. You identified what you found difficult — that you have trouble with proofs — and you asked for a specific type of help. Contrast your post with that of a calculus student who's been asked to calculate the derivative of x² using the definition, who provides no relevant equations, and who simply claims "I have no clue where to start."

In the latter case, my first thought upon encountering such a post is "Really?" The textbook undoubtedly has similar examples, and it's very unlikely the professor never did examples in class as well. It could very well be that the student has no idea where to start because he hasn't even read the book. Unfortunately, it's not that uncommon for this to, in fact, be the case. I don't think anyone's going to argue that this type of student isn't lazy.

Some students do try to read the book or their notes, but they quickly give up because they can't easily understand the material. This is another type of laziness. Reading and understanding the book or one's notes can take some work. If it were easy, you wouldn't need to take a class! Even if students find the book hard to read, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that they can at least determine the definition of a derivative and make even a half-baked attempt at applying it.

Finally, there are some students who actually have made a reasonable effort but all they say is "I have no clue" because their efforts didn't pan out. This is just laziness in the sense that the student won't bother to explain what specifically is confusing them. If the thread isn't deleted, what usually happens is there's a back and forth in the beginning of the thread to figure out what the student already tried. It's a waste of time as the student could have just provided that info from the start.

 

[Borek]

 

[Astronuc]

I've heard that brute force usually works.

 

[Evo]

I can't tell you how many times I started to post here, "had no idea where to start," then started filling out the template, then answered my own question and didn't have to post it.

-Dave K

I've heard that from a number of members, actually typing it out allowed them to see what they were doing wrong, or had forgotten.

 

[epenguin]

I have often seen 'I have no idea' about utterly standard problems which are the first word on the subject in every textbook, so such cases are as Borek says treating us as a first resort.

The textbooks have put a lot of thought into their explanations, and they (or a Prof. who sets as problem) knows what they have said before or what the student's background is, which we do not. Therefore explanations from us off the cuff are unlikely to be even as good as what the student has available. We can hopefully pick out misunderstandings, oversights etc. when we see what the student has thought and tried.

For. various reasons I think OTOH it should be more of a norm that the student who has received advice see the thing through to the end and tell us the answer.

 

[SteamKing]

It's not always clear if posters are in high school or college. Some questions show a lack of understanding of concepts which should have been learned in elementary school. For those posters who presumably are in college, it is amazing that they got that far in the first place.

 

[dkotschessaa]

Just had another look. The rules as posted here: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=686784

are very reasonable. There is really no such thing as "having no idea." You may not have a good idea, or a correct idea, but you have a textbook, you most likely have a teacher, and you have the whole of mankinds accessible knowledge as can be found through google.

If you've ever moderated a forum as active as this one (I have, though not this one) you'll immediately recognize the need for guidelines such as this. If that requirement was removed, the HW forum would become flooded with half-assed and no-attempts at math homework.

In fact, I would venture to guess (again, having experience as a mod on other forums) that such guidelines were not there from the beginning, but established later to address a flooding issue. (If that's NOT the case, then we have some astoundingly prescient moderators.)

-Dave K

 

[Evo]

Vela's thread is excellent.

I just don't understand why someone needing help would not furnish as much information as possible. The more you can explain, the faster someone can figure out where you need help. When I see no effort, it just sends a signal that this person doesn't really care, it's like the homework is just a nuisance that needs to get done, so why should we care if you don't? You need help, don't be afraid of showing what you're doing wrong!

 

[arildno]

"I just don't understand why someone needing help would not furnish as much information as possible"

I think MANY students, evo, are shy, and feel that they expose their dumbness if they show all their "silly" attempts to solve the problem to the public.

Those with LOW self-esteem will then feel better about posting just a "please help", rather than show how "dumb" they had been.
--------------------------
My experience at PF is that these students, WHEN PUSHED (say, through "What are your thoughts?" or "Show what you've done so far!") actually will give, in a hesitant manner, their attempts. Then, the thread will be going just fine.

The lazy ones just get annoyed at such promptings/demands, or won't respond any further, and that's fine by me.

 

[Tanya Sharma]

"I just don't understand why someone needing help would not furnish as much information as possible"

I think MANY students, evo, are shy, and feel that they expose their dumbness if they show all their "silly" attempts to solve the problem to the public.

Those with LOW self-esteem will then feel better about posting just a "please help", rather than show how "dumb" they had been.
--------------------------
My experience at PF is that these students, WHEN PUSHED (say, through "What are your thoughts?" or "Show what you've done so far!") actually will give, in a hesitant manner, their attempts. Then, the thread will be going just fine.

The lazy ones just get annoyed at such promptings/demands, or won't respond any further, and that's fine by me.

I agree with you arildno

 

[Evo]

"I just don't understand why someone needing help would not furnish as much information as possible"

I think MANY students, evo, are shy, and feel that they expose their dumbness if they show all their "silly" attempts to solve the problem to the public.

But this is where pointing them to Vela's thread can help them learn that it's not only OK to show their mistakes here, but it's actually GOOD, and maybe get some self esteem in the process when being open and honest is looked upon positively instead of just avoiding the elephant in the room. Maybe that's why they're having problems, they're afraid to ask questions. It's ok to prompt the student to furnish the required information, but what shouldn't happen is that help is given without first pointing out that more information is needed from them, that's not teaching them about how to get help in the future, it just reinforces that slacking off, or being afraid to admit they don't understand will get them results anyway. I see pointing them to the rules as helping them in the real world, after school they aren't likely to succeed if they have to be constantly spoon fed and led.

I see many homework helpers use this tactic quite successfully, they will advise the student of why they need to follow the template, report the post so a mentor can talk to them or evaluate if they're just uninformed or a chronic abuser, and also ask them to furnish the information they omitted. We're not saying that you can't ask them for information, we're asking not to start offering solutions without making them follow the rules first.

 

[arildno]

"It's ok to prompt the student to furnish the required information, but what shouldn't happen is that help is given without first pointing out that more information is needed from them"
--------
I totally agree with this, evo!

Perhaps vela's points could be included in a sort of popup-window when registering, like "Do you feel you don't have an idea how to solve the problem at hand?"

Or, when starting a thread, such an option automatically pops up, in order to reassure those who feel ashamed of their own "dumbness" that it really IS better that they try their best to explain their quandary and what they have done so far, than saying "I have no idea!".
------
After all, THOSE students (those primarily hampered by own feelings of inadequacy, rather than by the wish to be given an answer on a silver platter) will probably read it, the lazy ones won't, so we get a selection effect here.

 

[Evo]

"It's ok to prompt the student to furnish the required information, but what shouldn't happen is that help is given without first pointing out that more information is needed from them"
--------
I totally agree with this, evo!

Perhaps vela's points could be included in a sort of popup-window when registering, like "Do you feel you don't have an idea how to solve the problem at hand?"

Or, when starting a thread, such an option automatically pops up, in order to reassure those who feel ashamed of their own "dumbness" that it really IS better that they try their best to explain their quandary and what they have done so far, than saying "I have no idea!".
------
After all, THOSE students (those primarily hampered by own feelings of inadequacy, rather than by the wish to be given an answer on a silver platter) will probably read it, the lazy ones won't, so we get a selection effect here.

All excellent suggestions. We do have prompts with the template when they start a thread, Astronuc posted what they see here https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=4536300&postcount=27

I don't know that we could add more to the template, seems most don't even read the little we have, but perhaps we could come up with a nice "It's OK to say what you don't understand, that's why we're here, to help, not to judge" kind of blurb that could be used in response to incomplete or no templates. I don't know how other HHs or mentors feel about it, but I could see it putting members at ease knowing if they show their mistakes, we aren't going to ridicule them or think they're dumb.

 

[arildno]

"It's OK to say what you don't understand, that's why we're here, to help, not to judge"
-------------
I believe a sentence like that (we don't need to elaborate it into many pages!), is just what I was thinking of.
-------------------
That PF shows a "friendly face" at the moment of registration will have, I think, a good selection effect between those who are just unsure of themselves/their own skills and those who wish quick answers with minimal effort of their own. Specifically, a larger percentage of those who are unsure of themselves will, unpromptedly, dare to show their work after having read something like that, than if they hadn't read something along that line.

 

[Office_Shredder]

That specific sentence will probably result in people saying "I don't understand how to solve this problem" :tongue:

 

[arildno]

You are EVIL,Office Shredder..

 

[Evo]

That specific sentence will probably result in people saying "I don't understand how to solve this problem" :tongue:

LOL...BAD! :tongue:

 

[dlgoff]

I think MANY students, evo, are shy, and feel that they expose their dumbness if they show all their "silly" attempts to solve the problem to the public.

(substitute member for students in this quote)

Yep. IIRC it was three years or so of lurking before I posted a question.

 

[jhae2.718]

[how to do math image]

I like the "Feynman Problem Solving Method" myself:

1. Write down the problem.
2. Think really hard.
3. Write down the right answer.

 

[jackmell]

They're all, mostly so, very shy and intimidated and if they ask for help and you give what you feel is good help and they still don't understand it, mostly I think will not have the courage to come back and say, ". . . ugh, I'm so sorry, I'm kinda' stupid and still don't get it, could you hwlp me a little more?" See, I'm very nervous saying that. I mis-spelled help. That's tough to do. It's embarrassing and I've experienced it myself.

So the moral to the story is to give the best help possible the first time: judge the student's familiarity of the subject with the limited information given, and provide the necessary amount of help -- even, in my case which is not allowed in here so I won't do it, practically solve the problem for them but leave a little bit unsolved that you think they can finish in order to build confidence in them.

Edit: ugh . . . maybe that's not entirely correct: sometimes I do on occasion, what, solve maybe some of it? Not all of it though and I think the rule is "never solve the problem for them" and so technically I'm not breaking the rule. It had just occurred to me that I had just answered a post when I guess I kinda' did this.

 

[HayleySarg]

We are not a paid homework service.

If you're not capable of looking at the forum stickies and figuring out the appropriate way of phrasing a question, then you're probably not barking up the right tree in terms of studies. While I do understand sometimes you can be completely lost, you can at least submit the question in full, describe what it being taught in class, and at the VERY least, write down the key equations that may be helpful.

Doing all of the "pre work" to solving a problem, imho, is worse than doing the problem for them. The most ciritcal part of problem solving is identifying what the problem is. Do I think we should be outright rude? No.

I think there should be some sort of default rejection post, that states something along the lines of "submission incomplete" in much nicer words, that might be ideal. Students who can't help themselves are not going to be fixed here. They can be fixed, in the real world, with hands on professors. I would not treat a student here, as I would in real life. You know so much more when you're the professor, about the student, than we ever will here.

"I have no idea" reads so much differently when it's your top performing student, coming into your office hours the day the problem set was assigned versus "I have no idea" and this is a student that never came to lecture, and is trying to get the HW done the day it's due.

I can't really relate to being ashamed of being wrong. It's not like it's a life or death situation, it's just HW (okay, so maybe it's life and death, but I digress). Being wrong is ... part of learning. I don't really know how to address the fear of being wrong, I've always sucked with confidence.

humor intended.

 

[arildno]

"They're all, mostly so, very shy and intimidated and if they ask for help and you give what you feel is good help and they still don't understand it, mostly I think will not have the courage to come back and say, ". . . ugh, I'm so sorry, I'm kinda' stupid and still don't get it, could you hwlp me a little more?" See, I'm very nervous saying that. I mis-spelled help. That's tough to do. It's embarrassing and I've experienced it myself."
---
We are not here to Save the World, jackmell. Some certainly have pathological degrees of shyness, and no, we do not really have the obligation to Save them, or regard every student who comes into PF as belonging in that sad category.

 

[SteamKing]

Sometimes, like in this thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=718428
it seems the student has grown so dependent on getting HW help that basic mental skills have withered and died.
Posts 2 and 3 in this thread are especially alarming.

 

[AlephZero]

Some people still manage to get their HW done for them without making any effort ...
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=718534

 

[Vanadium 50]

Some people still manage to get their HW done for them without making any effort ...

Please report such posts.

 

[shaltera]

“Don't be in a hurry to condemn because he doesn't do what you do or think as you think or as fast. There was a time when you didn't know what you know today.”

 

[Evo]

“Don't be in a hurry to condemn because he doesn't do what you do or think as you think or as fast. There was a time when you didn't know what you know today.”

Lack of knowledge is not what is being discussed.

 

[phinds]

Please report such posts.

Up to now I have reported any post I noticed where the OP made no effort to show any kind of work and in one set of words or another said "I have no idea how to do this".

BUT ... I noticed today that 2 or 3 posts were of exactly that type and yet moderators had responded to them. Have the rules changed or been relaxed or what?

 

[Borek]

Up to now I have reported any post I noticed where the OP made no effort to show any kind of work and in one set of words or another said "I have no idea how to do this".

BUT ... I noticed today that 2 or 3 posts were of exactly that type and yet moderators had responded to them. Have the rules changed or been relaxed or what?

Can you show which ones? I guess it could be a temporary lack of vigilance.

 

[phinds]

Can you show which ones? I guess it could be a temporary lack of vigilance.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=724016
(on that one I see the Sci Advisor responded only after another, new, member had responded)


https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=724504
HW Helper just pointed out the problem is unclear.

I'm pretty sure there was a 3rd but I can't find it so maybe not.