Exorcism Phenomenon: What Atheists Think

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In summary: No, that's not what bugatti was trying to say. If he was, he would have mentioned stigmata specifically.
  • #1
bugatti79
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Folks,

I watched a movie called 'the rite' with Hopkins. I am intrigued to know what atheists think of this phenomenon.

How do they explain the phenomena of speaking a different tongue, precognition, physical violence assuming that the victim has been medically cleared of paranoia dementia etc?

Cheers
 
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  • #2


bugatti79 said:
Folks,

I watched a movie called 'the rite' with Hopkins. I am intrigued to know what atheists think of this phenomenon.

How do they explain the phenomena of speaking a different tongue, precognition, physical violence assuming that the victim has been medically cleared of paranoia dementia etc?

Cheers

You're going to have to clarify and provide references to what you are talking about. Do you mean speaking another language or speaking in tongues? What evidence do you have of precognition? Why is physical violence something you consider paranormal?

Please note that this forum is not a "atheists vs believers" site. This is a place for scientific inquiry and discussion. If you would like to discuss a phenomenon you will need to provide references, evidence and ask concise questions.
 
  • #3


Movies aren't real.

Even if they're 'based on' true events, that still leaves tremendous wiggle room for the writers, directors, and actors to embellish.

Show me a person who was evaluated and deemed to be sane when acting like they're possessed and we'll talk.
 
  • #4


bugatti79 said:
Folks,

I watched a movie called 'the rite' with Hopkins. I am intrigued to know what atheists think of this phenomenon.

As an atheist, I think I can speak for all of us when I say: "Atheists acknowledge the phenomenon of movie viewing."

bugatti79 said:
How do they explain the phenomena of speaking a different tongue, precognition, physical violence assuming that the victim has been medically cleared of paranoia dementia etc?

  • No need to explain speaking in different tongues: if it's a real language, it can be learned. If it's not, then anyone can speak gibberish.
  • No need to explain precognition because it hasn't been demonstrated in a reliable and repeatable manner. Anecdotal or statistical anomaly.

Why would physical violence need to be explained? It's surprisingly common. Oddly, uninstigated physical violence is actually PART of the diagnosis for many psychoses. So it's a bit of a chicken-and-the-egg problem here.

"He's physically violent."
"He may have some form of mental or emotional disorder."
"No...?"

Unless you're presupposing that the person is mentally sound there seems to be no reason to eliminate the possibility of some for of psychosis... possibly brought on by trying to learn another language or attempting to predict the future.
 
  • #5


I think that, by "physical violence", bugatti79 was referring to "stigmata"- bleeding, bruises, or other physical damage not actually caused by physical violence.
 
  • #6


It's a movie.
 
  • #7


HallsofIvy said:
I think that, by "physical violence", bugatti79 was referring to "stigmata"- bleeding, bruises, or other physical damage not actually caused by physical violence.

bugatti79 said:
How do they explain the phenomena of [...] physical violence assuming that the victim has been medically cleared of paranoia dementia etc?

Maybe, but if that's what bugatti meant, then he did a poor job of conveying this information. In fact, he contrasts the idea of physical violence and mental illness which seems to further the idea that a mentally ill person might act violently. If he's implying a tendency to act inwardly violent (i.e. self-mutilation), then I'd point him towards the millions of self mutilators which show no outward signs of diagnosable mental illness except for their tendency towards self-mutilation.

I'm unaware of any credible claims of stigmata, and a brief exercise of Google didn't turn up anything other than crackpot sites. I guess I'll ask for sources? Bugatti, do you have any sources to provide (given that a movie isn't sufficient).

*Side note: Bugatti, if you're in the business of believing movies, I'd like to sell you an underground giant-transforming-robot-proof survival bunker. In case you haven't heard, Apollo 11 turned up some evidence that there is an eons-old robot war being fought on our doorstep. I'd like to know what atheists think of that!
 
  • #8


Not to mention that stigmata having to do with the crucifixion is anatomically incorrect, proving it is psychosomatic (the stigmata people have blood in the places they've seen in medieval paintings). It is now known that people crucified during the time of Jesus would have been nailed through the wrists, not the hands, and through the heel, not the tops of the feet.
 
  • #9


Evo said:
Not to mention that stigmata having to do with the crucifixion is anatomically incorrect, proving it is psychosomatic (the stigmata people have blood in the places they've seen in medieval paintings). It is now known that people crucified during the time of Jesus would have been nailed through the wrists, not the hands, and through the heel, not the tops of the feet.

You would think that Jesus would remember where those nails went pretty gosh darned well.

Maybe Jesus? said:
"Uhhh... hmm... can't remember. Hands? Was it my hands? Well, anyway... as a sign of my divine intervention, your hands will bleed just as mine did! It was hands, right? Gosh, it was so long ago."
 
  • #10


bugatti79 said:
Folks,

I watched a movie called 'the rite' with Hopkins. I am intrigued to know what atheists think of this phenomenon.

How do they explain the phenomena of speaking a different tongue, precognition, physical violence assuming that the victim has been medically cleared of paranoia dementia etc?

Cheers
You ever watch one of those TV preachers head slappin the devil out of their flocks? Do they sound more like an ancient prophet overturning temple tables, or, a farm animal having a stroke in a canoe?
 
  • #11


I had so much interest in this subject years ago, and how it could be possibly explained in the light of science by multiple personality disorder and other similar psychological diseases. However, I still don't know if there's an explanation for why some people who're believed to be possessed by evil entities, start behaving uncontrollably when a scripture of some kind is being read on them? I remember that I downloaded a scientific research explaining why, but I didn't have the opportunity to read it.

In my region, where all people are officially Muslims, most of them believe in this phenomenon as a devil taking control of a victim's body. The victim is taken to an exorcist, who uses the َQuran to exorcise. When he starts doing so, the victim screams and acts uncontrollably. When I was a young boy, I attended an exorcism session, where a group of people sit in a circular form while an exorcist reads verses of the Quran on them. A lot of the attendants started acting crazily in a few minutes since he started reading. Interestingly, I felt nauseous and shortness of breath at that time.

See this video for an exorcism session:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzv39wii5aU
 
  • #12


CDTOE said:
I still don't know if there's an explanation for why some people who're believed to be possessed by evil entities, start behaving uncontrollably when a scripture of some kind is being read on them...
In my region, where all people are officially Muslims, most of them believe in this phenomenon as a devil taking control of a victim's body.
Bingo. I'm sure that if you took a Muslim person who was "possessed" would not act like that if the Pope read a bible at him, or a witch burnt some leaves.
 
  • #13


It's called the "power of suggestion". They believe they're posessed, so they believe reading from a book on the religion they believe in will work. Getting caught up in the excitement from a crowd is a mild form of what is called "mass hysteria", again a form of the "power of suggestion".
 
  • #14


Ryan_m_b said:
Bingo. I'm sure that if you took a Muslim person who was "possessed" would not act like that if the Pope read a bible at him, or a witch burnt some leaves.

Do I sense sarcasm here? but yeah, when I was a young boy who wasn't able to read scientific papers on this subject at that time, I believed in the supernatural explanation of this phenomenon. However, on a side note, I must say that Islamic teachings aren't necessarily teaching that a devil can take over a human being. It's something that's debatable between different educated minds in Islam. Anyway, I won't go any further on this because it's not our subject.

Evo said:
It's called the "power of suggestion". They believe they're posessed, so they believe reading from a book on the religion they believe in will work. Getting caught up in the excitement from a crowd is a mild form of what is called "mass hysteria", again a form of the "power of suggestion".

If I attended an exorcism session again, would I possibly feel nauseous especially since I have become aware of the possible natural explanations behind this phenomenon? would I suffer from mass hysteria?
 
  • #15


CDTOE said:
If I attended an exorcism session again, would I possibly feel nauseous especially since I have become aware of the possible natural explanations behind this phenomenon? would I suffer from mass hysteria?
Why are you asking me? I didn't say anything about your nausea. I was referring to your comment on the other people acting crazy.
 
  • #16


Evo said:
Why are you asking me? I didn't say anything about your nausea. I was referring to your comment on the other people acting crazy.

Yes, I know, but given that I felt nauseous and shortness of breath at that time, therefore by the definition of mass hysteria, I was possibly suffering from the same thing. So, do you think that I would possibly feel the same symptoms if I attended an exorcism session again after I have become aware of the the possible natural explanations? someone told me that he and his friend, when they were schoolchildren, spread a rumor that there's a ghost in the bathroom of the school. After the rumor spread everywhere in the school, other students reported that they saw a ghost in the bath, and they became so scared, until the school closed for some time. If this is really the case, then it's a very effective tool for physiological war especially with the presence of media.

I must say, I haven't read on mass hysteria before, but it surely is interesting. I just have read a few pages on the Dancing Plague that occurred in France in 1518, and that's one of the weirdest things I have read for some time.
 
  • #17


CDTOE said:
Yes, I know, but given that I felt nauseous and shortness of breath at that time, therefore by the definition of mass hysteria, I was possibly suffering from the same thing. So, do you think that I would possibly feel the same symptoms if I attended an exorcism session again after I have become aware of the the possible natural explanations?
There's a chance the feeling of nausea is caused by the method of chanting of the exorcist.

I once saw a practitioner of the Wiccan religion on TV perform a blessing ritual over a globe (representing the earth). She warbled her voice in the most strangely powerful way when she said the prayer that I found myself with tears streaming down my face.

I also saw an Indian (Native American) ritual chant once, where the leader gave a little talk about how, in the old days, the chanters knew how to draw people into the ritual with carefully studied vocal effects.

Intuitively we all know such a thing is possible: we know people with especially soothing voices and people with especially grating voices. Modern day actors are a clear example of people who diligently study and practice ways of effecting emotional responses with their voices. Then there's the classic military drill sargent whose voice is always calculated to intimidate, and command obedience.

Generally speaking, whenever someone adopts an unnatural sounding vocal pattern like chanting, it's bound to have an emotional effect, positive, negative, even humorous.

That's something to consider.
 

1. What is exorcism and why do atheists think it is not real?

Exorcism is a religious or spiritual practice in which a person attempts to cast out evil spirits or demons from a person, object, or location. Atheists do not believe in the existence of supernatural beings such as demons, so they do not believe that exorcism is a real phenomenon.

2. Is there any scientific evidence to support the claims of exorcism?

No, there is no scientific evidence to support the existence of demons or the effectiveness of exorcism. Many cases of supposed possession can be explained by psychological or physiological factors, and there is no empirical evidence to suggest that supernatural forces are at play.

3. Do atheists believe that exorcisms are harmful?

Atheists may believe that the practice of exorcism can be harmful in some cases. In extreme cases, people who believe they are possessed may harm themselves or others, and there have been documented cases of abuse during exorcisms. Additionally, the belief in demonic possession can contribute to stigmatization and mistreatment of individuals with mental health issues.

4. Can exorcism be explained by science or psychology?

Yes, many aspects of exorcism can be explained by science and psychology. For example, the physical reactions and behaviors exhibited by individuals during exorcisms can be attributed to psychological phenomena such as suggestibility, dissociative states, or mental illness.

5. Are there any non-religious explanations for exorcism?

Yes, there are several non-religious explanations for exorcism. Some believe that the concept of exorcism evolved from ancient beliefs in evil spirits and demons, while others see it as a cultural manifestation of superstitions and fear. Additionally, exorcism may serve as a coping mechanism for individuals dealing with trauma or mental health issues.

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