Roswell: The most significant witness

[Ivan Seeking]

I'm not really big on Roswell, but if there is one compelling witness in all of this it is Col. Corso, who was the intelligence officer who allegedly "saw what come from Roswell", and who also allegedly knew what became of what he saw. In many ways he comes with a high degree of credibility but the story he tells is about as wild as it gets. It is the stuff of conspiracy theories and all the rest. When he knew he was dying, not long before he died, he made a video to document his alleged experiences.

By all accounts, he served with distinction during World War II and the Korean War, was a member of the White House National Security Council under President Eisenhower, and then headed the Foreign Technology Desk at the U.S. Army's Research and Development Department, reporting to General Arthur Trudeau

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_J._Corso

Over the years various military credentials have been shown and there is a photo of him in uniform and standing next to Eisenhower. He seems to be who he says he his. I believe this is fairly well established.

On Sunday night, this weekend, Coast to Coast will broadcast the Art Bell interview with Corso done in 1997.

Sun 04.09 >>
Rebroadcast:
from 7/23/97
Col. Phillip Corso
http://www.coasttocoastam.com/

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Whenever the subject turns to Roswell I always say the same thing and it's always the MIB thing, misinformation that exploits the Alien invasion myth, if you are testing some top secret prototype that crashes or a higly sensative spy satelllite or whatever and the general public gets wind of it, what better tway to hide the truth than to play into the alien invasion mythos of the times. I think this was merely a clever cover up of sensitive people and materials personally or maybe a cover up of a secret weapon test. Nothing I've seen proof wise would lead me to believe otherwise and Curso himself being a Lt Colonel working in Roswell is not convincing either, after all he could simply of been following orders to obfuscate the facts. As far as UFO conspiracy theories go, this one is pretty wierd, but I think there's most likely to be a more mundane reason behind the whole UFO thing. Show me the aliens and I'll eat my words

 

[Ivan Seeking]

What lends credibility to not only Roswell, but really all similar claims and conspiracy theories, that is, what keeps the stories alive are people like Corso, Col Halt from the Rendlesham Forest episode, Astronauts Gordon Cooper and Ed Mitchell, Former Canadian Defense Minister Paul Hellyer, Former chief of the British Defense Staff and former Chairman of the NATO Military Committee, Admiral Lord Hill-Norton, Former Director of the CIA, Admiral Roscoe Hillenkoetter... [Senator Barry Goldwater] These are the origins of the conspiracy theories. So it seems that there is a conspiracy; one way or another.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Once a long time ago I read a book about investigating ghosts published by the British Society for the Scientific Investigation of the Paranormal. It began with an illustrative true account of the reputed mysterious events at a house owned by a judge, with most of the evidence being the testimony of the judge. And there was ample testimony on the judge's probity and honor and so forth, which by the standards you apply to Col. Corso would suggest that the events in the house must have been true. But the account in the book was that the events were nothing at all like what the judge testified. He was wrong, or a liar.

This has put me off accepting any evidence on the basis of someone's noble career outside the field of that evidence. As the motto of the royal Society has it "Nullius in verba" - take no-one's word for things.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Once a long time ago I read a book about investigating ghosts published by the British Society for the Scientific Investigation of the Paranormal. It began with an illustrative true account of the reputed mysterious events at a house owned by a judge, with most of the evidence being the testimony of the judge. And there was ample testimony on the judge's probity and honor and so forth, which by the standards you apply to Col. Corso would suggest that the events in the house must have been true. But the account in the book was that the events were nothing at all like what the judge testified. He was wrong, or a liar.

This has put me off accepting any evidence on the basis of someone's noble career outside the field of that evidence. As the motto of the royal Society has it "Nullius in verba" - take no-one's word for things.

The titles alone don't make for credibility, however the number of people of high rank coming forth, and the documented accounts and sightings makes this more than just a ghost story. In fact there is now a long list of formerly high ranking officials from nearly all branches of the government, the military, and the intel community, all telling approximately the same story. Additionally, a number of governments such as the Belgian Gov [via the military] have officially recognized the UFO phenomenon. See also the COMETA report which was published by a notable private group of high ranking French officials. So there must be a heck of a lot of distinguised people telling some really big lies, and for what? It is very difficult to make money on this stuff. Most of the information is available on the net for free.

Consider the case of Col Halt. The official report that he filed only became known generally, many years later.
http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/foi/ufo/dep_ba1.pdf

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The other thing that nags at me is this: If you ask yourself who would know about such things, the list above is a good start.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

What lends credibility to not only Roswell, but really all similar claims and conspiracy theories, that is, what keeps the stories alive are people like Corso, Col Halt from the Rendlesham Forest episode, Astronauts Gordon Cooper and Ed Mitchell, Former Canadian Defense Minister Paul Hellyer, Former chief of the British Defense Staff and former Chairman of the NATO Military Committee, Admiral Lord Hill-Norton, Former Director of the CIA, Admiral Roscoe Hillenkoetter... [Senator Barry Goldwater] These are the origins of the conspiracy theories. So it seems that there is a conspiracy; one way or another.

Don't get me wrong I'm sure of the 100% of UFO cases there are some pretty bizarre and unexplainable situations that are genuinly paranormal and beyond reason or at least current reason. Roswell however sets off my hokey detector, there's just something about it: the cold war era and the back and forth that makes me skeptical.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_in_Black

I happen to have heard Jenny Randells, who is mentioned here, lecture and I heartily recommend any of the books about UFO's and the Men In Black phenomina as they are pretty well reasoned arguments against many so called conspiracy issues.

those 1% cases intrigue me as much as anyone though.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Likewise, I don't get too excited about any particular case - in particular Roswell. But I do see why the legends continue. Typically UFO conspiracy theories are attributed to people wearing alien masks or antennas on their heads, but that is not where this stuff originates. Before long, the pop culture has so badly contaminated any original information that it's nearly impossible - a career - to sort out what claims come from where, whom, and when. But there is no doubt that many of the biggest sources of conspiracy theories are military and intelligence people. Can Corso be believed? Probably not; but I only say this because of the outrageous story that he tells. In most any other context we probably wouldn't question his testimony.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

As for the MIB, of course it is important to realize that the idea has been inflated beyond absurdity by Hollywood. The idea that government officials are running around in black suits isn't so hard to believe...say for example if they were trying to cover-up secret military tests. So I could buy that one without even invoking the need for ET.

 

[Chronos]

You would think some former president would summon a gaggle of reporters and spill the beans while on his death bed. Of course, presidents may not have a need to know such things . . . or there may not be any beans. I do not find accounts by former, mid-rank military officers very compelling. I can envision how they did not have a need to know, and why they get the silent treatment. Astronauts? As I recall, Mitchell championed Uri Geller's cause for years.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

You would think some former president would summon a gaggle of reporters and spill the beans while on his death bed. Of course, presidents may not have a need to know such things . . . or there may not be any beans. I do not find accounts by former, mid-rank military officers very compelling. I can envision how they did not have a need to know, and why they get the silent treatment. Astronauts? As I recall, Mitchell championed Uri Geller's cause for years.

Mitchell is an interesting case. He claims to have undergone a spiritual transformation on the way back from the moon - a connection with the universal mind, or something. So whether he trulyhad some sort of life changing experience [be it real or not], or is it all bull...? He might have been genuinely fooled by Geller, but he could just have well have been playing along. It really ticks me off that we had made personal contact on the internet and he asked me to contact him...and I lost his freaking email address - deleted by mistake. I wanted to get to know him a bit and try to get a better handle on his perspective [or line of bull, perhaps].

In his words, the information about ET "is not in the best hands". He claims that groups operating outside of the government have control of this. Does he have access to information that most people wouldn't have [he certainly did for a time], or is he nuts, or just full of it? I have even wondered if the government doesn't give these guys a wink and nod to tell these stories. But that gets tough to buy since I too know people who claim direct knowledge of military encounters with UFOs. I see no way that they are all part of some conspiracy to perpetuate a myth. As you pointed out, if a conspiracy of that magnitude existed, someone would be talking. So at the least there must be a conspiracy of silence among liars trying to make a quick buck. On the other end, many or even most may be completely sincere.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Trying to see a pattern in such a farrago must be frustrating. What you need is your own Seymour Hersh.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Trying to see a pattern in such a farrago must be frustrating. What you need is your own Seymour Hersh.

In 1986 I decided to figure this all out, once and for all, for a term paper...

In the end, people like me get stuck. On one hand, if you watch and read enough of the testimony it becomes impossible to dismiss it all. One doesn't find just a few compellilng witnesses, rather one find thousands. If one were to give any credence whatsoever to human testimony then this would be a done deal - ET is here. But without the incontrovertible physical evidence, for all the smoke in the world, there is no way to be sure of a fire. One can always imagine how to poke holes in any story. One can simply choose to believe that this is a sociological, and not a physical phenomenon. But IMO, to accept either explanation - ET or BS - is to make unjustified leap of faith. In fact I would say that there is no way that this is all BS. At the least there must be some rare physical phenomenon as the source of some UFO events.

One of the last things that Peter Jennings did was to take a serious look at the UFO phenomenon. He was impressed that this is not all nonsense. And here we are: More smoke.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

In 1986 I decided to figure this all out, once and for all, for a term paper...

In the end, people like me get stuck. On one hand, if you watch and read enough of the testimony it becomes impossible to dismiss it all. One doesn't find just a few compellilng witnesses, rather one find thousands. If one were to give any credence whatsoever to human testimony then this would be a done deal - ET is here. But without the incontrovertible physical evidence, for all the smoke in the world, there is no way to be sure of a fire. One can always imagine how to poke holes in any story. One can simply choose to believe that this is a sociological, and not a physical phenomenon. But IMO, to accept either explanation - ET or BS - is to make unjustified leap of faith. In fact I would say that there is no way that this is all BS. At the least there must be some rare physical phenomenon as the source of some UFO events.

One of the last things that Peter Jennings did was to take a serious look at the UFO phenomenon. He was impressed that this is not all nonsense. And here we are: More smoke.

There are also several thousand people who believe they have seen angels and had similar experiences. I've personally known people who were quite intelligent and reliable but believed some incredibly far out things. One of them was a really good guy who worked as an electrician and believed that he was being stalked and spied upon. I could believe that some of the smaller incidents had happened to him but some of the larger conspiracies he talked about seemed mainly like he was grasping.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There are also several thousand people who believe they have seen angels and had similar experiences. I've personally known people who were quite intelligent and reliable but believed some incredibly far out things. One of them was a really good guy who worked as an electrician and believed that he was being stalked and spied upon. I could believe that some of the smaller incidents had happened to him but some of the larger conspiracies he talked about seemed mainly like he was grasping.

If we want to talk about the number of people who believe or claim they have seen a UFO, it is in the millions. But again, UFOs fall into a different class of reports as compared to angels or ghost stories. For example, how many angel stories involve multiple witnesses and RADAR reflections? Or, show me one military document that describes an angel encounter.

A case that involves only one person with no other supporting physical or anecdotal evidence would not typically constitute an interesting UFO case. In the case of Corso, he is interesting not only because of the one-hundred or so other peope who claim knowledge of events at Roswell, but also because his work puts him in a unique position to be telling such a tale. Corso is also unique since he did write a book that sold. But I also think it is easy to argue that he had no way to know that it would set off such a furor. He is just one in a long line of ex-military telling their tale. Anyway, no doubt, none of this is proof and he could just be making it all up. I don't know of any unique information that would prove his case.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

For example, how many angel stories involve multiple witnesses and RADAR reflections? Or, show me one military document that describes an angel encounter.

I'm not sure. The only story of a mass angel sighting I know of is The Battle of Mons which ofcourse has been thuroughly debunked but was still spread about the by the veterans of that battle.
Then there's Fatima and that's about all I can come up with off the top of my head.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I'm not sure. The only story of a mass angel sighting I know of is The Battle of Mons which ofcourse has been thuroughly debunked but was still spread about the by the veterans of that battle.
Then there's Fatima and that's about all I can come up with off the top of my head.

It's not reasonable to lump all claims together as if they are one subject. Consider for example comparing Elvis sightings to ball lightning reports - the difference being that ball lighthing reports go back for centuries and are fairly consistent. Elvis reports are very rare and come with no supporting evidence. In fact I recently saw a tabloid headline claiming that Elvis is on Mars. Does that mean that Ball lightning doesn't exist? Do Elvis reports invalidate the rich history of ball lightning reports?

Of course it is now generally accepted by meteorologists that ball lightning is real, and that Elvis is dead.

And of course it is argue that angel reports are really ET reports, but I'm not going there.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

And of course it is argue that angel reports are really ET reports, but I'm not going there.

Sorry if I am coming off as adversarial.
I've read Robert Anton Wilson considerations of UFOs as being the modern equivalent of Angel sightings. Some Angel sightings may come from a letigimate phenomena similar to your idea that UFO sightings may be some other but real phenomena. Perhaps the two are even the same. I'm just not sure that eyewitness testimony is all that spectatular as evidence even when the witnesses are 'reliable' or en masse. Even evidence such as radar blips are subject to the reliability of the people who witness them.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I didn't think that you were being offensive or improper...?

RADAR tracks of UFOs have been recorded in many instances. Considering also that in many cases we use or used these same systems to determine whether or not to launch a nuclear strike, we have to give them a little credit I think. At the least, there is no justification for declaring them all to be false tracks or the witnesses liars.

Consider this:

G: We tracked a UFO
H: No you didn't.
G: Turned out to be ball lighthing
H: oh

Can you see this conversation happening? If so, why? Because we are willing to accept the evidence as long as it doesn't violate our expectations. If it does, we tend to view the evidence with bias.