Can I get a Ph.D. in physics if my bachelor's degree isn't in physics

In summary: That'll make you stand out.Zz.In summary, this conversation discusses the question of whether individuals with degrees in various fields, such as engineering, computer science, and business, can use their degree to pursue a physics graduate degree in the US. The speaker provides two tests for individuals to determine if they have the necessary background and knowledge for such a pursuit - taking the GRE Physics test and reviewing old qualifying exams from the desired school. They also mention that while physics majors may have a more favorable consideration, acceptance depends on the specific school and their expectations for incoming students. Lastly, the speaker advises having a backup plan, such as a double major in engineering and physics, in case of not being accepted or needing time off.
  • #71
Gokul43201 said:
Wow, I thought you (Zz) meant that a 75 percentile score is what determines that you're prepared.

Let me add that I'm one of these people in grad school doing Physics after an engineering degree. My GRE score was in the high 70s (percentile). And I found myself slightly underprepared when I started taking the regular courseload here.

The GRE does not test you on very much advanced undergrad knowledge - it mostly tests you on the basics. Of course, if your fundamentals are weak, this is not for you.


how did you shift from engineering to physics?i am an indian 1 year engineering student .please reply
 
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  • #72
I suggest that you look at the date on Gokul's post. :wink:
 
  • #73
Hey,

I read the first post about whether I'd have a chance at surviving grad school, but what I'd like to ask is whether I'd be admitted to grad school. My situation is that I'm a business major, going to graduate soon. I know that I can't get admitted to a physics program like this, and that the best thing to do would be to get a BA in Physics. But honestly, starting a Bachelor's all over again doesn't sound quite appealing to me (financing is a question too, though I'm in Europe so it's not entirely impossible).

Rather I was thinking that I would get into an Economics Master's program, because (i) I'm more or less qualified, (ii) I find it interesting (though not as much as physics), and (iii) it's highly quantitative.

If I were to do well (as specified in the first post) in the GRE Physics test after my Master's (thanks to self-study), then would the good GRE Physics scores combined with a quantitative graduate degree in economics be enough for me to get admitted into a physics PhD program?

Honestly, I don't see any reason why I couldn't get admitted in this case, except for one thing: the lack of lab experience. But most schools only specify a "Bachelor's degree" as a requirement (along with the GRE Physics and other usual stuff, but nothing I don't have). So what would my likelihood of getting admitted be in your opinion?

Thanks in advance for the replies!
 
  • #74
Please allow me to reiterate:
ZapperZ said:
I continue to get questions and PMs related to this thread, and from the responses and discussions I see going on here, I think many of you missed the point of this thread.

. . . .
and please note that the thread started more than 7 years ago.

In graduate school, there is an expectation that one has achieved a certain level of mastery in the subject, and that is most often based upon completing a baccalaureate (batchelor's) degree in the subject, in this case Physics. At the Master's degree level, one (in general) undertakes supervised research (i.e., one works on research usually decided by, or with approval of, one's faculty advisor) that leads to a Thesis. At the PhD level, one undertakes independent (and hopefully original) research, with support from faculty, which culminates in a dissertation.

It is possible to do a graduate degree in physics, but coming from a program without exposure to the mathematics and underlying fundamentals of physics (e.g., classical mechanics/dynamics, . . . ) would mean that one has to learn that material in order to accomplish an advanced program.
 
  • #75
fettuccine said:
Hey,

I read the first post about whether I'd have a chance at surviving grad school, but what I'd like to ask is whether I'd be admitted to grad school. My situation is that I'm a business major, going to graduate soon. I know that I can't get admitted to a physics program like this, and that the best thing to do would be to get a BA in Physics. But honestly, starting a Bachelor's all over again doesn't sound quite appealing to me (financing is a question too, though I'm in Europe so it's not entirely impossible).

Rather I was thinking that I would get into an Economics Master's program, because (i) I'm more or less qualified, (ii) I find it interesting (though not as much as physics), and (iii) it's highly quantitative.

If I were to do well (as specified in the first post) in the GRE Physics test after my Master's (thanks to self-study), then would the good GRE Physics scores combined with a quantitative graduate degree in economics be enough for me to get admitted into a physics PhD program?

Honestly, I don't see any reason why I couldn't get admitted in this case, except for one thing: the lack of lab experience. But most schools only specify a "Bachelor's degree" as a requirement (along with the GRE Physics and other usual stuff, but nothing I don't have). So what would my likelihood of getting admitted be in your opinion?

Thanks in advance for the replies!

As Astronuc has mentioned, you have missed completely the entire point of this thread. Only YOU can prevent forest fires, and only YOU can make your own self-determination on whether you can survive in a Physics graduate school.

Furthermore, you've made two strange points. You have neglected the SECOND part of my self-check procedure, which was the qualifying exams questions. Secondly, you've made a premature assumption that you would do well in the Physics GRE. I hate to burst your bubble, but this is not something you can assume, given your background. If I were to ask you right now for the ground state energy of a quantum harmonic oscillator, can you give me the answer right off the top of your head without looking it up? That is a typical question in one of these GRE tests.

I would also say that I've never come across anyone who has a graduate degree in physics with ONLY a business major undergraduate degree. That, in itself, should tell you something.

Zz.
 
  • #76
ZapperZ said:
As Astronuc has mentioned, you have missed completely the entire point of this thread. Only YOU can prevent forest fires, and only YOU can make your own self-determination on whether you can survive in a Physics graduate school.

Furthermore, you've made two strange points. You have neglected the SECOND part of my self-check procedure, which was the qualifying exams questions. Secondly, you've made a premature assumption that you would do well in the Physics GRE. I hate to burst your bubble, but this is not something you can assume, given your background. If I were to ask you right now for the ground state energy of a quantum harmonic oscillator, can you give me the answer right off the top of your head without looking it up? That is a typical question in one of these GRE tests.

I would also say that I've never come across anyone who has a graduate degree in physics with ONLY a business major undergraduate degree. That, in itself, should tell you something.

Zz.

Yes, indeed I missed the point of the thread. Sorry for that. But since you were still kind enough to reply, let me react on this.

I know what assumptions I made, my question was not whether those assumptions are realistic. My question was merely whether I'd have a shot at getting admitted if those assumptions were true. I have about two years to get ready for the Physics GRE. Obviously, right now I couldn't answer your question, but two years is a lot of time, and I think it's achievable. If I cannot do relatively well in the Physics GRE after two years of self-study, then that would simply indicate that I'm probably not cut out for a physics PhD anyways.

Furthermore, I don't know how well you read my post, but my plan is not to have a physics PhD with nothing more than a BA in Business. No, I'd first obtain an MSc in Economics, which is a highly quantitiative field, even though not as much as physics, but still it'd give me a solid mathematical background (+ the self-study for the Physics GRE).

My question was simply whether in your opinion a strong Physics GRE result with a Master's degree in a quantiative but not physics-related field (economics) would likely get me admitted into a Physics PhD program or not. Would I have shot, or would it be completely hopeless? That's what I'd like to know.
 
  • #77
Let's talk after you obtain this "strong Physics GRE" result. Until that happens, this is all going to be a meaningless speculation. I seldom waste my time doing such things.

Zz.
 
  • #78
ZapperZ said:
I feel very tacky in recommending you read my "So You Want To Be A Physicist" essay, but I will! :)

In one part (I forgot which), I deal exclusively on math preparations. To paraphrase Mary Boas in the preface of her book, sometime a physics major needs more math than a math major! At the undergraduate level, especially in US institutions, a physics major simply does not have the time nor the inclination to take that much math! And we need as much as we can to be able to do physics!

If you are a physics major, the easiest way out from all this is to either enroll in a mathematical physics course, if you are lucky enough to be at a school that offers this. If not, I strongly, strongly, strongly recommend you get the Mary Boas text that I recommended. Everyone that I have recommended this to and bought it did not regret getting it. It will give you the starting point for all the mathematics you need as a physics major, without having to take all the other mathematics courses.

Zz.

What if you are a math major and want to go into something like astrophysics, astronomy or even theoretical physics for your graduate study?
 
  • #79
mjada76 said:
What if you are a math major and want to go into something like astrophysics, astronomy or even theoretical physics for your graduate study?

By asking ME that question, you have entirely missed the point of this thread. I suggest that you go back to the first few pages of this thread and spend some time reading it.

Zz.
 
  • #80
ZapperZ said:
By asking ME that question, you have entirely missed the point of this thread. I suggest that you go back to the first few pages of this thread and spend some time reading it.

Zz.

I did read it and I also read "so you want to become a physicist" thread as well...my bad I guess I should have worded my question better...I know I'd probably have to take more physics classes to prepare me for grad school, but my question is: would a math major have an advantage over a an EE going into physics? seeing how math is basically the language of physics!...
Just would like to hear different opinions.
 
  • #81
mjada76 said:
I did read it and I also read "so you want to become a physicist" thread as well...my bad I guess I should have worded my question better...I know I'd probably have to take more physics classes to prepare me for grad school, but my question is: would a math major have an advantage over a an EE going into physics? seeing how math is basically the language of physics!...
Just would like to hear different opinions.

But just because you know the language doesn't mean you have the ability to write "War and Peace".

I can also say that someone with an EE background will have more of an advantage if he/she wants to do experimental physics, or in particular, go into Accelerator Physics.

And that's the problem with trying to answer a question like this. It is extremely vague, because the specifics is a major factor in determining the outcome. That's the whole point in my writing this thread - YOU can figure out for yourself how equipped you are in surviving a physics graduate program. It is not meant to compare how much better you are than other majors.

Zz.
 
  • #82
ZapperZ said:
But just because you know the language doesn't mean you have the ability to write "War and Peace".

I can also say that someone with an EE background will have more of an advantage if he/she wants to do experimental physics, or in particular, go into Accelerator Physics.

And that's the problem with trying to answer a question like this. It is extremely vague, because the specifics is a major factor in determining the outcome. That's the whole point in my writing this thread - YOU can figure out for yourself how equipped you are in surviving a physics graduate program. It is not meant to compare how much better you are than other majors.

Zz.

I wasn't implying anyone was better than anybody else...the question it self was hypothetical and using the math/EE comparison was just an example!
Anyways... I get what you're saying and thanks for your help.
 
  • #83
Can a mathematics major who has taken Calc-Based Physics 1 and 2 and modern physics be accepted into a Ph.D in Physics program?
 
  • #84
Hercuflea, did you read this thread?
 
  • #85
Hercuflea said:
Can a mathematics major who has taken Calc-Based Physics 1 and 2 and modern physics be accepted into a Ph.D in Physics program?

Can a physics major who has taken (only) typical Calc I-III, differential equations, and linear algebra be accepted into a math Ph.D. program? :uhh:
 
  • #86
Oh dear lord.
I am an international student, please excuse my language.
Someone told me that after BSc pure mathematics you can enter any graduate program(what's a bad advice).
I tried GRE sample test it was a disaster, it's really require knowledge of physical laws. I thought you'll study additional courses in your master in order to replenish.
What a chance to admission with my lack on physics, to be precise on theoretical physics.
 
  • #87
incomplete said:
Oh dear lord.
I am an international student, please excuse my language.
Someone told me that after BSc pure mathematics you can enter any graduate program(what's a bad advice).
I tried GRE sample test it was a disaster, it's really require knowledge of physical laws. I thought you'll study additional courses in your master in order to replenish.
What a chance to admission with my lack on physics, to be precise on theoretical physics.

Again, you (and a few others) seem to have missed the point of this thread, and probably did not read it. I suggest you start from the beginning.

Summary: only YOU can figure out if you are adequately prepared, and what I posted tells you HOW you can test yourself!

If you wish to get other types of opinion, then look for other existing threads, or make a new thread.

Zz.
 
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  • #88
ZapperZ said:
Again, you (and a few others) seem to have missed the point of this thread, and probably did not read it. I suggest you start from the beginning.

Summary: only YOU can figure out if you are adequately prepared, and what I posted tells you HOW you can test yourself!

If you wish to get other types of opining, then look for other existing threads, or make a new thread.

Zz.

Sorry for upsetting you,

Actually I was concentrating on your posts more than others.

Obviously, this question cannot be answered easily, because it depends on (i) your major (ii) what physics and mathematics classes you took as an undergraduate.

I think it's a good idea to enhance your thread with what to do after testing your self on this critical time.
 
  • #89
incomplete said:
I think it's a good idea to enhance your thread with what to do after testing your self on this critical time.

That is not what this thread is meant to do. I'd rather stick to the topic. If you wish to discuss that, start your own thread. I've already seen more than enough people who can't even understand the original intention of this thread. I'm sure I'll make it WORSE if I now start adding even more stuff to it.

Zz.
 
  • #90
I was a mathematics undergrad. I am now finishing my physics PhD thesis. So, yes.

To prepare, I did something very similar to ZapperZ's suggestion:
  1. Do GRE Physics practice tests and/or old exams from physics classes.
  2. Figure out what topics you suck at.
  3. Buy/borrow/download books on those topics and get better at them.
  4. ?
  5. Physics!
I also agree that Mary Boas' book Mathematical Methods in the Physical Sciences is worth its weight in helium-3. You can introduce yourself to a huge amount of relevant math very quickly with that book. Many of my fellow grad students agree.
 
  • #91
Just wanted to add , that in India students who wish to go for masters in physics have to appear for a national level test called Joint Admission test for MSc (JAM) . The questions are of the level that any above average physics BSc student can answer . I think they can also serve as a good self-evaluation tool ( perhaps a slightly better test than GRE physics )

http://www.iitb.ac.in/~pge/jam_qp/

(Select PH question paper)
 
  • #92
I currently pursuing engineering in electronics can I go in the field of astrophysics in higher studies like or even after masters in electronics also after giving some exam on physics aptitute ?
 
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  • #93
imroze99 said:
I currently pursuing engineering in electronics can I go in the field of astrophysics in higher studies like or even after masters in electronics also after giving some exam on physics aptitute ?

Please read the beginning of this thread. You are missing its main point. Read msg 87

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=4178435&postcount=87

Zz.
 
  • #94
ZapperZ, Imagine that I can pass all the required GRE tests in physics/math but I don't hold a bachelor's degree in any field that requires math so all my knowledge come from self-study . Does this substitute for an undergraduate program ? I'm reading graduate textbooks in physics e.g jackson and peskin ,How could this help with my application?
 
  • #95
nabil0 said:
ZapperZ, Imagine that I can pass all the required GRE tests in physics/math but I don't hold a bachelor's degree in any field that requires math so all my knowledge come from self-study . Does this substitute for an undergraduate program ? I'm reading graduate textbooks in physics e.g jackson and peskin ,How could this help with my application?

Pass the GRE tests?

You don't "pass" such tests. You get a score, and it is up to the individual school to use that score any way appropriate.

You didn't do the 2nd part of the self-test.

Until you actually can get the score within the top 25%, I'd rather not waste time and speculate on something I've never seen.

Zz.
 
  • #96
ZapperZ, can we cheat in the GRE test mentioned in your first post of this thread? Because, while I scored above 75th percentile, I had to cheat a bit. I knew how to do the problems, but, I didn't remember all the formulae, especially in the EM part.
 
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  • #97
saim_ said:
ZapperZ, can we cheat in the GRE test mentioned in your first post of this thread? Because, while I scored above 75th percentile, I had to cheat a bit. I knew how to do the problems, but, I didn't remember all the formulae, especially in the EM part.

Why should I care if you cheat when you don't? This is your own self test.

Zz.
 
  • #98
I don't mean to ask if you care or not. I mean to ask whether you think it makes a lot of difference or not if I look for a few formulae while doing the test. In other words, does your test work as an open book exam as well, in your opinion?
 
  • #99
saim_ said:
I don't mean to ask if you care or not. I mean to ask whether you think it makes a lot of difference or not if I look for a few formulae while doing the test. In other words, does your test work as an open book exam as well, in your opinion?

If, by looking, it simply means that you know what they are, how to use them, and what they mean physically and you just didn't remember them, then it shouldn't matter. However, if by looking at them you simply plugged-and-chugged, then it does matter.

Please note that you are not trying to pass anything. You are using these tests as your own self-evaluation. In the end, it is for YOU to decide if you are well-prepared enough to try physics graduate school.

Also note that the GRE Physics test is a cakewalk when compared to the department's qualifying exams. I would pay more attention to those.

Zz.
 
  • #100
ZapperZ said:
Pass the GRE tests?

You don't "pass" such tests. You get a score, and it is up to the individual school to use that score any way appropriate.

You didn't do the 2nd part of the self-test.

Until you actually can get the score within the top 25%, I'd rather not waste time and speculate on something I've never seen.

Zz.


I actually meant to get a top score , I've actually downloaded a version of the physics and math test . The questions are not that hard . It's the type of problems that you find in undergraduate textbooks .I'm actually reading graduate level textbooks now
 
  • #101
nabil0 said:
I actually meant to get a top score , I've actually downloaded a version of the physics and math test . The questions are not that hard . It's the type of problems that you find in undergraduate textbooks .I'm actually reading graduate level textbooks now

Then I suggest you actually sit for the physics GRE and tell me what score you get.

Zz.
 
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  • #102
And what about a jump from a PhD in mathematical modeling of turbulent flows to a postdoc in astrophysics? Do you think something like this is possible? or the only option is to do a second PhD?
 
  • #103
Bunsen said:
And what about a jump from a PhD in mathematical modeling of turbulent flows to a postdoc in astrophysics? Do you think something like this is possible? or the only option is to do a second PhD?

Please start a new thread. That is outside the scope of the topic for this thread.

Zz.
 
  • #104
If I got a good score in GRE, can I get into graduate school without even having a bachelor's?
 
  • #105
Hello there,

So, I found this thread a while ago (about a year) and actually followed through. I graduated with a B.S. in chemistry this past August, with minors in math and physics. I did this in 3 years and got a 3.7 GPA. I did 5 semesters of physics research (fluid instabilities at chemical reaction fronts and some nonlinear pattern formation stuff).

I got 600 on this year's October physics GRE (31th percentile). Not anything to be proud of, but I'm making all the good excuses, like... besides the overlap between the disciplines, I've really only had the calc-based sequence, a modern physics course (relativity and some quantum), and Nonlinear Dynamics and Chaos (which obviously wasn't a top 5 GRE topic). I think I gave this the good college try.

That being said, I assume it's not good enough. What should I do to keep pursing this? I currently teach as an adjunct physics instructor at my old university. They don't have a physics degree, or else, I would've just gotten one, dammit. I know that's the easiest way of going about this. For those who would ask *snooty voice* "Why didn't you transfer?" Good for you that you could afford to leave state. As an adjunct, I have 3 credits free, so I thought I'd grab what else they offer in the mean time, but they can't do much beyond what services other departments. :(

I talked to an advisor about an engineering degree, and that would take me another 4 years and a lot of money because I'd be part time. BUT, I don't think I'm that far off from being a decent candidate. Is it possibly worthwhile to spring the few hundred dollars (not trivial) that applications cost all together and see how I fare, or should I build myself up a little? I'm not aiming high, schoolwise -- UColoradoBoulder and University of New Mexico mainly.

Thanks!
 
<h2>1. Can I pursue a Ph.D. in physics if my bachelor's degree is in a different field?</h2><p>Yes, it is possible to get a Ph.D. in physics even if your bachelor's degree is in a different field. Many graduate programs in physics accept students from diverse academic backgrounds, as long as they have a strong foundation in mathematics and science.</p><h2>2. Do I need a bachelor's degree in physics to be accepted into a Ph.D. program in physics?</h2><p>No, a bachelor's degree in physics is not a requirement for admission into a Ph.D. program in physics. However, having a degree in a related field such as mathematics or engineering may increase your chances of being accepted.</p><h2>3. Will I need to take additional courses to make up for not having a bachelor's degree in physics?</h2><p>It depends on your specific academic background and the requirements of the Ph.D. program you are applying to. Some programs may require you to take additional courses in physics to ensure you have the necessary knowledge and skills. Others may have a more flexible approach and allow you to take courses as needed during your graduate studies.</p><h2>4. Can I still get a Ph.D. in physics if I have a strong interest in the subject but no formal education in the field?</h2><p>It is possible, but it may be more challenging. Without a strong foundation in physics, you may need to take additional courses or do extra self-study to catch up with your peers. It is important to have a strong passion and motivation for the subject to succeed in a Ph.D. program in physics.</p><h2>5. Are there any specific requirements for non-physics majors applying to Ph.D. programs in physics?</h2><p>Each Ph.D. program may have its specific requirements for non-physics majors. It is essential to research the programs you are interested in and reach out to their admissions office for more information. Some common requirements may include a strong background in mathematics and science, letters of recommendation, and a statement of purpose explaining your interest in pursuing a Ph.D. in physics.</p>

1. Can I pursue a Ph.D. in physics if my bachelor's degree is in a different field?

Yes, it is possible to get a Ph.D. in physics even if your bachelor's degree is in a different field. Many graduate programs in physics accept students from diverse academic backgrounds, as long as they have a strong foundation in mathematics and science.

2. Do I need a bachelor's degree in physics to be accepted into a Ph.D. program in physics?

No, a bachelor's degree in physics is not a requirement for admission into a Ph.D. program in physics. However, having a degree in a related field such as mathematics or engineering may increase your chances of being accepted.

3. Will I need to take additional courses to make up for not having a bachelor's degree in physics?

It depends on your specific academic background and the requirements of the Ph.D. program you are applying to. Some programs may require you to take additional courses in physics to ensure you have the necessary knowledge and skills. Others may have a more flexible approach and allow you to take courses as needed during your graduate studies.

4. Can I still get a Ph.D. in physics if I have a strong interest in the subject but no formal education in the field?

It is possible, but it may be more challenging. Without a strong foundation in physics, you may need to take additional courses or do extra self-study to catch up with your peers. It is important to have a strong passion and motivation for the subject to succeed in a Ph.D. program in physics.

5. Are there any specific requirements for non-physics majors applying to Ph.D. programs in physics?

Each Ph.D. program may have its specific requirements for non-physics majors. It is essential to research the programs you are interested in and reach out to their admissions office for more information. Some common requirements may include a strong background in mathematics and science, letters of recommendation, and a statement of purpose explaining your interest in pursuing a Ph.D. in physics.

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