Curious does anyone play the piano

[elabed haidar]

i really want to thank you i will never be alone because its nice to talk about your talent with talented people thank you alot

 

[mishrashubham]

i really want to thank you i will never be alone because its nice to talk about your talent with talented people thank you alot

ME? Talented? That's the biggest joke on the planet.

 

[elabed haidar]

okay okay not only talented people but also people who admire the greatness in piano

 

[Ms Music]

so if i want to sing and play should i play the three parts?? that's hard
but if i just want to play the piano i play the second and third line

Elabed, something else you could try. :) In my opinion, Elton John's piano music is nothing more than "flowery" chord charts. This is a concept I did not learn until college. When I was young, I only played classical music, and it was played note for note exactly as it was on the sheet music. When I got into college, I took a music performance class and learned how to play rock and roll. It was a very foreign concept to me, but it was easy to figure out with all my years of playing. Look at guitar tabs, and see if you can figure it out just from the chord name. If not, I can offer assistance, either through this thread (in case anyone else is interested), or PM. It is very basic music theory.

I do prefer to stick with Mozart and his friends, but it is nice to know that I now CAN play Elton John if I wish. And I don't need sheet music to follow. :D

 

[JaredJames]

In my opinion, Elton John's piano music is nothing more than "flowery" chord charts.

Pardon? The piano notation certainly isn't just a set of chord charts.

 

[Ms Music]

Sure it is. You wouldn't be playing note for note what Elton John did in the studio version, but he doesn't play it exactly that way in his live performances either. You have freedom to play what you want, as long as it fits within the chord structure. Here is a brief example: (two measures only due to lack of time)

D minor (two counts, F Major two counts, G Major 4 counts. C Major two counts, E minor 2 counts, F Major 4 counts.

Can you pick the song out? I have been singing that song since I read this thread. :D He doesn't play those CHORDS, but what he plays fits within the chord sequence. And I doubt that is the right key... but that isn't the point I am trying to show you.

You will not be playing Elton John note for note, but it is an interesting concept to learn, and gives you a lot of freedom for your own interpretation. I think this is how studio musicians play?

Does this help?
I am willing to go more into depth if you want, but I just got a HUGE pile of work dumped on my desk. *scowl*

 

[JaredJames]

Hence my comment regarding artistic flourishes et al.

However, I don't see how any of the above makes it "flowery chord charts". If what you meant by that is what is above, my interpretation of it didn't fit with what you have put. In which case it's a non-issue.

 

[Ms Music]

Hence my comment regarding artistic flourishes et al.

However, I don't see how any of the above makes it "flowery chord charts". If what you meant by that is what is above, my interpretation of it didn't fit with what you have put. In which case it's a non-issue.

I guess it IS a non issue! :D I didn't see your comment about "artistic flourishes", all I saw was

Pardon? The piano notation certainly isn't just a set of chord charts.

which led me to believe you didn't understand "chord charts." Elton John is easiest to play (in my own opinion) by using chord charts. If you are familiar with his music, it is easy to imitate his "artistic flourishes." (what I called "flowery") Unless you WANT to play it note for note like he does in studio, then you want the notation. But it sounded like the original poster was having a tough time finding good sheet music. You can find basic guitar tabs online, which aren't much different than a chord chart. Then pretend you are Elton John, and voila!

If the original poster is talented enough to play Elton John, (and it sounds like you have also) then that person (and you) would probably be able to figure out how to play Elton John's music by using chord charts. It just requires some thinking outside of the box, as you don't have sheet music in front of you. It was extremely awkward for me to learn in college, even if you looked at what classical music I was able to play all ready.

On the other hand, trying to play Mozart from a chord chart, I just may have to have some words with you! *giggle* *wink*

 

[elabed haidar]

guys guys i agree with both of you hear elton john sings and plays music you don't hear it everyday but also even if you get the piano sheets its still not the same play you will get if you play it by yourself that is why this post is asked from the first place but thank you both for this interesting discussion

 

[Ken Natton]

It is interesting Jared that you seem to have taken such exception to Ms Music’s characterisation of Elton John’s playing style as ‘ “flowery” chord charts.’ If by that, she meant some denigration of Elton John’s musical abilities then I could not agree, but as a key insight into the easy way to learn how to play Elton John’s music, she is dead right. And, in point of fact that applies not just to Elton John’s music, but to a good proportion of popular songs, for that matter. It is helpful to understand that many such songs are written at the guitar rather than the piano. But even those written at the piano, like Elton John’s, are really just based around chord sequences. And I am often astonished by just how simple those chord sequences are. I don’t know how many hugely popular songs are based nearly exclusively around the tonic, sub-dominant and dominant chords.

And that takes the insight to a further level. Once you have learned the basic business of playing the twelve major and twelve minor triads in root position and first inversion, perhaps adding the extra spice of seventh chords, then the really important thing is to learn to understand chord relationships. Then it becomes dead easy, not only to learn to play the songs of others easily, but even to make up songs of your own. One more key technique to learn, much used in popular songs, is something called a suspension. In any case, I’m trying to demonstrate how simple all of this is. You’ll have to take my word for it that if it is demonstrated to you at the piano, it really is quite an easy technique to master.

Now, as I say, I mean no denigration at all of Elton John’s abilities. He was, famously, classically trained and it does show. He sits in front of a piano keyboard and produces wonderful sounds from it like it is an extension of himself. If anyone is expecting to have that kind of ability after only five minutes practice, then they are heading for a disappointment. But Elton John himself admits that it sometimes takes him but a few minutes to write a song. Good as he is, that does have to tell you that he is employing some simple techniques to do so.

 

[JaredJames]

It is interesting Jared that you seem to have taken such exception to Ms Music’s characterisation of Elton John’s playing style as ‘ “flowery” chord charts.’ If by that, she meant some denigration of Elton John’s musical abilities then I could not agree,

Not really interesting, because this is exactly how I took it. To me it read as an attack at his music, but now she's explained what she meant I get it. An interpretation issue which like I said, is a non-issue now.

What she is describing is playing by ear. I do it often when I like a song I don't have the music to, generally without the chord chart though.

 

[Ms Music]

What she is describing is playing by ear.

But it ISN'T playing by ear. That is the point. I can write a song, create a chord chart, and make 4 copies. One for the guitar, bass, drummer, and keyboard. If they understand chord charts (which studio musicians should be able to do), they should be able to play along (without ever hearing the song) with the singer (that knows the lyrics and melody of the song) and it should work out fine. Without the studio musicians ever hearing the song.

Ever play 12 bar blues? Or listen to a group have a jazz jam? It is more like that. You are just playing within set parameters. As long as everyone in the group follows that set of parameters, they all have a certain amount of freedom in interpretation.

The only thing that would be played by ear, is copying Elton John's style.

 

[turbo]

But it ISN'T playing by ear. That is the point. I can write a song, create a chord chart, and make 4 copies. One for the guitar, bass, drummer, and keyboard. If they understand chord charts (which studio musicians should be able to do), they should be able to play along (without ever hearing the song) with the singer (that knows the lyrics and melody of the song) and it should work out fine. Without the studio musicians ever hearing the song.

Ever play 12 bar blues? Or listen to a group have a jazz jam? It is more like that. You are just playing within set parameters. As long as everyone in the group follows that set of parameters, they all have a certain amount of freedom in interpretation.

The only thing that would be played by ear, is copying Elton John's style.

For years, I hosted an open-mic jam at local taverns. People would drop in and play their favorite stuff, whether it be blues, jazz, rock, pop, and we "regulars" would back them. For me, the key to this flexibility was knowing barre chords, so I could transpose by ear. We had a keyboardist that would show up when his work schedule permitted, and his keyboard allowed him to transpose, much as my barre chords did, so we generally sounded pretty good, with some nice flourishes and signature touches and very few "clams". That was a very pleasurable job. When we had an excess of guitarists/vocalists, I'd often jump behind my Fibes drum kit and be the percussionist for a while.

I supplied the sound system and drums and sang and played guitar, so the tavern owners paid me, and I used the money to supplement my income and maintain the equipment. The other people just showed up and played for the fun of it. Every once in a while a bunch of jazz aficionados from a local music school would show up and really mix things up. There was a group of students that were into some real avante-garde stuff and when they dropped in, I'd just give them the stage for as long as they wanted, or until other musicians got antsy and wanted to get back up there.

 

[JaredJames]

But it ISN'T playing by ear. That is the point. I can write a song, create a chord chart, and make 4 copies. One for the guitar, bass, drummer, and keyboard. If they understand chord charts (which studio musicians should be able to do), they should be able to play along (without ever hearing the song) with the singer (that knows the lyrics and melody of the song) and it should work out fine. Without the studio musicians ever hearing the song.

Playing by ear is listening to a piece and then playing it.

I understand what you have described above (give someone the chords for a piece and they can play along to someone with the melody).

However, it is impossible for you to play an Elton John (or any) piece - the melody/accompaniment piano part - without hearing it first. How would you know you're playing it? How would you know what to play?

So it's one or the other. You are either just playing the chords along to the melody, or you are trying to improvise the melody - the latter requiring a prior hearing of said melody.

I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing here. To improvise an Elton John song (or any) is to play by ear.

 

[Ms Music]

I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing here.

This was the whole purpose of my posting in this thread:

thank you all it means a lot so i dream of palying the elton john songs and i have in fron t of me but its like it needs three hands hopw do i play it ??

Ken Natton supported my position also. Need I say more?

Turbo-I knew you had been in music, but didn't know in what way. That is very cool! Thanks for sharing.

 

[turbo]

Turbo-I knew you had been in music, but didn't know in what way. That is very cool! Thanks for sharing.

I worked my way through college in large part by playing frat parties on weekends, and buying, refurbishing, and reselling guitars and tube amps. Shiftwork (pulp and paper) and consulting (lots of flying) screwed my chances of playing in an established band, so when I stopped traveling and got 9-5 in-state jobs, I started playing open-mic jams. $125 cash plus free drinks for ~3 hours of work on a weekend day. Pretty good job. Plus, I'd get bands together to play biker parties and corporate BBQs.

The best band I ever cobbled together included two guitarists and a bassist that were regulars at the open-mic jams, a very talented drummer, and a female vocalist (my sister). It was a short-notice deal to fill an unexpected vacancy at a local night-spot. We called ourselves "to be announced" because that's what it said on the placards. As the owner paid us, he begged us to stay together and be his house band, with storage space, practice facilities, etc in that old hotel. My youngest sister was tending bar that night, and she told me that the bar had its most profitable night of the entire year, including New Year's Eve. We would have had to break up 4 bands in order to stay together, and I would have had to give up my open-mic jobs or risk losing all my spare time on weekends. Still, it was fun.

Apart from playing stuff at the open-mic jams, we had zero rehearsal time, and we pretty much winged it all night. Very live, fresh stuff.

 

[Pythagorean]

Piano was my first instrument but I ne'er really liked it until after I learned theory. Now I like any instrument with strings.

 

[turbo]

Piano was my first instrument but I ne'er really liked it until after I learned theory. Now I like any instrument with strings.

I never warmed up to piano because there were too many variations in patterns involved in key-changes. Guitar, banjo, mandolin are a lot more forgiving. Learn to play barre chords, and transpose instantly with no hassle.

I never owned a mandolin. One night, I visited a friend at his apartment and he showed me an old Gibson melon-back that he had bought, and told me that he was taking lessons from a well-known local blue-grass musician. He went into the kitchen to fix a few snacks, and I started playing his mandolin. He came back out of the kitchen and asked how I knew how to play it, and I told him that I had never played one before. Then he said "I hate you!".

 

[elabed haidar]

Sure it is. You wouldn't be playing note for note what Elton John did in the studio version, but he doesn't play it exactly that way in his live performances either. You have freedom to play what you want, as long as it fits within the chord structure. Here is a brief example: (two measures only due to lack of time)

D minor (two counts, F Major two counts, G Major 4 counts. C Major two counts, E minor 2 counts, F Major 4 counts.

Can you pick the song out? I have been singing that song since I read this thread. :D He doesn't play those CHORDS, but what he plays fits within the chord sequence. And I doubt that is the right key... but that isn't the point I am trying to show you.

You will not be playing Elton John note for note, but it is an interesting concept to learn, and gives you a lot of freedom for your own interpretation. I think this is how studio musicians play?

Does this help?
I am willing to go more into depth if you want, but I just got a HUGE pile of work dumped on my desk. *scowl*

give me what ever you want i really care about piano

 

[elabed haidar]

Playing by ear is listening to a piece and then playing it.

I understand what you have described above (give someone the chords for a piece and they can play along to someone with the melody).

However, it is impossible for you to play an Elton John (or any) piece - the melody/accompaniment piano part - without hearing it first. How would you know you're playing it? How would you know what to play?

So it's one or the other. You are either just playing the chords along to the melody, or you are trying to improvise the melody - the latter requiring a prior hearing of said melody.

I'm not entirely sure what you're arguing here. To improvise an Elton John song (or any) is to play by ear.

i couldn't agree with you more

 

[Ken Natton]

i couldn't agree with you more

Well, I would suggest to you that it is not what is generally meant by ‘playing by ear’. Usually, someone who is described as ‘playing by ear’ is someone who cannot read music at all, and would not have the faintest idea what was meant by ‘a chord of C major’ or ‘a chord of A minor’. All they do is work out how to play something that sounds like the piece that they have heard. I have encountered some people who are astonishingly good at it, and for someone who learned more formally, it is always a mystifying ability.

Although playing a designated chord sequence is not playing from sheet music, neither is it playing by ear. Nor is it improvisation. Just because you are not reading from a manuscript, you're still playing a pre-planned sequence. And again, I would suggest to you it is the way that a fair proportion of pop musicians operate. They learn one chord sequence for the verse, shift to a second sequence for the hook, and possibly a third one for the middle eight. And that’s it. Put a Mozart sonata in front of them and they wouldn’t have a clue. But it is still not playing by ear. Or not what is usually meant by that term.

 

[Pythagorean]

I never warmed up to piano because there were too many variations in patterns involved in key-changes. Guitar, banjo, mandolin are a lot more forgiving. Learn to play barre chords, and transpose instantly with no hassle.

I never owned a mandolin. One night, I visited a friend at his apartment and he showed me an old Gibson melon-back that he had bought, and told me that he was taking lessons from a well-known local blue-grass musician. He went into the kitchen to fix a few snacks, and I started playing his mandolin. He came back out of the kitchen and asked how I knew how to play it, and I told him that I had never played one before. Then he said "I hate you!".

mandolin is fun. I got one last christmas and have since learned blackberry blossom, cattle in the cane, and super mario bros. I'm kind of working on 'midnight on the summer deep' (tony rice unit version), but I've been distracted lately playing electric guitar with a drummer-slash-fellow-neuroscience-student.

 

[Jonathan Scott]

In a lot of popular and folk music styles, it is possible to guess without any form of notation at all what chord is coming up next even the first time through, and certainly possible after the first iteration of some chord sequence. If one isn't quite sure, it's often possible to play notes which fit with part of a chord anyway, and if one really isn't sure, one can just listen first and play a little late. Also, there are often rhythmic or melodic patterns which repeat a lot, so you only need to pick up the pattern once to cover a lot of material.

Occasionally I come across piano works which similarly have so much pattern that they are very easy to learn by memory, even if difficult to play. Chopin studies Op 25 No 11 ("Winter Wind") and No 12 ("Ocean") are examples of such works. In the "Ocean" study, almost every bar (measure) of music is simply based on one chord, but contains 32 notes.

I play mainly piano, violin and viola. (I'm just an amateur - my day job is writing IBM systems software). Of those, at a given standard, piano is by far the hardest to sight read because of the number of notes. On a good day, I've been known to sit in front of a full orchestral score and give a reasonable approximation on the piano, but transposing instruments (especially French Horns) usually manage to trip me up as soon as the texture gets too crowded.

I'm currently warming up the first movement of Rachmaninoff's 2nd piano concerto for an informal concerto play-through evening in June where members of the orchestra (including myself on the piano and my wife on the cello) are playing various concerto movements and allowing the public to pay to watch us making fools of ourselves. Should be fun!

 

[JaredJames]

Well, I would suggest to you that it is not what is generally meant by ‘playing by ear’. Usually, someone who is described as ‘playing by ear’ is someone who cannot read music at all, and would not have the faintest idea what was meant by ‘a chord of C major’ or ‘a chord of A minor’. All they do is work out how to play something that sounds like the piece that they have heard. I have encountered some people who are astonishingly good at it, and for someone who learned more formally, it is always a mystifying ability.

Although playing a designated chord sequence is not playing from sheet music, neither is it playing by ear. Nor is it improvisation. Just because you are not reading from a manuscript, you're still playing a pre-planned sequence. And again, I would suggest to you it is the way that a fair proportion of pop musicians operate. They learn one chord sequence for the verse, shift to a second sequence for the hook, and possibly a third one for the middle eight. And that’s it. Put a Mozart sonata in front of them and they wouldn’t have a clue. But it is still not playing by ear. Or not what is usually meant by that term.

Why are people arguing this?

Playing by ear: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning_music_by_ear

You either have none of, or some of the music and you listen to the piece and try to recreate it. There is no requirement not to know music notation.

If you have no music at all and recreate a piece, that is playing by ear.

If you have the chords only and recreate the melody part, that is playing by ear (melody not chords).

You seem to be saying that the moment you have a hint of notation in front of you, it is no longer playing by ear. Which is nonsense. How would you describe listening to and then playing the melody? You're not improvising and you're certainly not playing from a set notation. You are listening to a piece and then recreating it - playing it by ear. The only bit you're not playing by ear are the chords.

My music teacher was fantastic at it. She could listen to a piece a few times and then after only a few attempts could emulate it to a very good standard without any music.

 

[Hurkyl]

Why are people arguing this?

Because you're arguing a strawman. You are talking about trying to faithfully reproduce a performance you heard. The people you are arguing with aren't.

 

[JaredJames]

Because you're arguing a strawman. You are talking about trying to faithfully reproduce a performance you heard. The people you are arguing with aren't.

Firstly, the OP wants to play Elton John songs. Without sheet music it is "trying to faithfully reproduce a performance you heard", even with the chord pattern you are playing the melody by ear.

Secondly, I described listening to a song and attempting to recreate it as above (whether the whole piece or part of) and yet people have turned around and said that isn't playing by ear.

I understand what they are saying (for the third time now), however I disagree when they say listening to and then recreating a piece isn't playing by ear (chords or not).

There is no strawman, there is simply a concept (definition even) which they are happily applying in one case but not another for no valid reason. You wouldn't accept it in physics, so why here?

 

[Ken Natton]

Firstly, the OP wants to play Elton John songs. Without sheet music it is "trying to faithfully reproduce a performance you heard", even with the chord pattern you are playing the melody by ear.

Secondly, I described listening to a song and attempting to recreate it as above (whether the whole piece or part of) and yet people have turned around and said that isn't playing by ear.

I understand what they are saying (for the third time now), however I disagree when they say listening to and then recreating a piece isn't playing by ear (chords or not).

There is no strawman, there is simply a concept (definition even) which they are happily applying in one case but not another for no valid reason. You wouldn't accept it in physics, so why here?

Well, clearly Jared, your understanding of the term differs considerably from mine. And it really is not about anything so precise and scientific as physics. It’s about a term and how it is normally used. My understanding of the usage does not accord with yours. But what ever our respective understandings of the term, you still seem to me to be missing the core point about how popular songs are often created. Of course there are some with greater sophistication that are created by composers with a genuine understanding of tonal theory. But an awful lot of them are created by people who have no such understanding. Their talent is for creating sound sequences that connect with their target audience. They don’t need a deep knowledge of tonal theory to do so. But then neither do the people who wish to play those songs themselves need to put in the same amount of effort that they would to play a Mozart sonata or a Chopin waltz. Once you have grasped that they really are just simple chord sequences, those chord sequences are very easy to learn to play. And as I say, if you do that, it usually follows on quite naturally that you start to make up some of your own. It really isn’t very difficult.

 

[JaredJames]

Well, clearly Jared, your understanding of the term differs considerably from mine. And it really is not about anything so precise and scientific as physics. It’s about a term and how it is normally used. My understanding of the usage does not accord with yours.

We'll agree to disagree then, however I would be very interested how you would describe someone with a chord pattern for a piece, listening to said piece and then trying to play the melody, if not by the use of "playing by ear"?

But what ever our respective understandings of the term, you still seem to me to be missing the core point about how popular songs are often created. Of course there are some with greater sophistication that are created by composers with a genuine understanding of tonal theory. But an awful lot of them are created by people who have no such understanding. Their talent is for creating sound sequences that connect with their target audience. They don’t need a deep knowledge of tonal theory to do so. But then neither do the people who wish to play those songs themselves need to put in the same amount of effort that they would to play a Mozart sonata or a Chopin waltz. Once you have grasped that they really are just simple chord sequences, those chord sequences are very easy to learn to play. And as I say, if you do that, it usually follows on quite naturally that you start to make up some of your own. It really isn’t very difficult.

Again, for the fourth time, I understand all of this. For those unaware here, I studied music for most of my life both in and out of teaching environments (holding various qualifications and all that nonsense that goes with it). This stuff above and previously, I do not disagree with.

 

[Hurkyl]

I understand what they are saying (for the third time now) however I disagree when they say listening to and then recreating a piece isn't playing by ear (chords or not).

There is no strawman,

If you think they are talking about "listening to and then recreating a piece", then you really don't understand what they are saying. Ms Music, for example, already explicitly clarified what she was talking about:

... create a chord chart ... they should be able to play along (without ever hearing the song) ... Without the studio musicians ever hearing the song.

 

[Pythagorean]

Usually, someone who is described as ‘playing by ear’ is someone who cannot read music at all, and would not have the faintest idea what was meant by ‘a chord of C major’ or ‘a chord of A minor’. All they do is work out how to play something that sounds like the piece that they have heard. I have encountered some people who are astonishingly good at it, and for someone who learned more formally, it is always a mystifying ability.

I think that's a bit of a generalization though. I play by ear, but I also know theory. Technically, I can read music, but I can't sight-read (and I haven't practiced sight-reading)

but I went through several periods of musical development

1. very young, piano lessons, hated it (monotonous)
2. high school, guitar, learned a couple chords, then started studying theory and technique on the internet. But mostly, I was always jamming with a friend of mine who got me interested in guitar. We'd just play. I eventually learned that the scale I had diddle in that i liked was called E minor harmonic and learned about triads and arpeggios and the harmonic series. Picked up the violin and the accordion a couple times, but never purchased my own. I love the breathing rhythm of the accordion though. During this phase, I would also fill cups up to different levels and try to get them into an A minor scale. I also remember using a microphone and a wah-wah pedal on my piano. I was very experimental with tonality and timbre at the time.
3. college, started my physics degree with a minor in music (later went from BA to BS in physics and dropped music, but not before getting through a year of theory and ear training; aced the theory, couldn't sing or sight read in the ear training, but never really practiced it and still don't have much interest. I actually think classical musical notation is terribly unintuitive and out of date. I still use tabs.)
4. musical death (physics degree took-over for a couple years)
5. mandolin bluegrass revival + drummer to jam prog rock with. Miss having a rhythm guitarist though.

wouldn't the circle of fifths and the way it all comes together be much more elegant in a mathematical formulation rather than letters with sharps and flats?

 

[JaredJames]

If you think they are talking about "listening to and then recreating a piece", then you really don't understand what they are saying. Ms Music, for example, already explicitly clarified what she was talking about:

For the fifth time, that part of what they are saying I understand. My comment on "listening to and then recreating a piece" was nothing to do with that. So not sure why you combined them. In fact, I'd consider that misinformation on your part. My original statement (emphasis mine):

I understand what they are saying (for the third time now) however I disagree when they say listening to and then recreating a piece isn't playing by ear (chords or not).

I did not say that what they described in the latter posts was playing by ear. I said that the following is playing by ear:

If you are familiar with his music, it is easy to imitate his "artistic flourishes." (what I called "flowery") Unless you WANT to play it note for note like he does in studio, then you want the notation. But it sounded like the original poster was having a tough time finding good sheet music. You can find basic guitar tabs online, which aren't much different than a chord chart. Then pretend you are Elton John, and voila!

If the original poster is talented enough to play Elton John, (and it sounds like you have also) then that person (and you) would probably be able to figure out how to play Elton John's music by using chord charts. It just requires some thinking outside of the box, as you don't have sheet music in front of you. It was extremely awkward for me to learn in college, even if you looked at what classical music I was able to play all ready.

I don't know about others here, but to me that reads as "if you like Elton John but can't get sheet music, get a chord chart and then try and recreate the piece (possibly in your own way)." with the obvious requirement of having heard the EJ song you want to play. This would come under playing by ear.

If you've never heard an Elton John song, the chance of you sitting at a piano and playing one of his pieces is slim to none, chord chart or not. In order to do the above, you must have listened to it, which makes what you are doing playing by ear - aka, listening to the melody and trying to reproduce it with the assistance of a chord chart. I'd be very interested in seeing a studio performer play the melody of a lady gaga song without ever hearing it and only having a chord chart.

 

[Hurkyl]

If you've never heard an Elton John song, the chance of you sitting at a piano and playing one of his pieces is slim to none, chord chart or not. In order to do the above, you must have listened to it, which makes what you are doing playing by ear - aka, listening to the melody and trying to reproduce it with the assistance of a chord chart.

If you're trying to reproduce the specific notes, then yes you are playing it by ear. If you're merely trying to reproduce the style, then no, you are not playing it by ear.


I was going to use "Symphony for the Devil" as an example of the sort of thing. All you really need is chords, melody, and "woo woo", and are playing the song. (And you probably don't even need all three to be recognizable) I picked this because I remember being at a friends house and a CD with a dozen variations of the song was playing quietly in the background, even in very different styles, and it was still clear what the song was. (at least once "woo woo" started)

Then I fired it up in youtube, I was still surprised at just how utterly generic the piano part was. If the video on youtube had a completely different piano part with the same chords in the style of 60-70s rock, I'm not certain I would have consciously noticed.


That's what I took Ms Music's comment to mean after she clarified -- that Elton John is very similar. I just fired up one song at random in youtube (Sorry Seems to be the Hardest Word), I agree.

I think that if you had given be a chord chart and told me to "with the right hand, play on each beat without much variation", I would have a good chance of having played nearly the same right-hand part I heard in the youtube video, despite having never heard the song before. I think the biggest random factor is whether or not I guess correctly at what pitch to keep the top notes of the chords hovering about. (so that I get the inversions right)

 

[Ken Natton]

I think that's a bit of a generalization though. I play by ear, but I also know theory.

Yeah, I didn’t mean to say that it is proscribed that anyone who plays by ear must not know any musical theory, I was just saying that it is more normally the case, because the very reason that they play by ear is because they have no other access to being able to play.

Whatever, let’s take this conversation in a more positive direction.

wouldn't the circle of fifths and the way it all comes together be much more elegant in a mathematical formulation rather than letters with sharps and flats?

I always think that it a key thing to understand about Mozart that he was someone with an exceptional mathematical ability. The cycle of keys and relationships between keys is all very mathematical and it is something Mozart understood at an instinctive level. He had an extraordinary ability to make several modulations that you don’t even notice until you suddenly realize that you are somewhere very distant from where you started. But I am not among those who criticize Mozart’s music as something that is too mathematical. I believe his music to be among the most profound. I studied the G minor symphony for ‘O level’ and it remains a piece that speaks very deeply to me.

Chopin studies Op 25 No 11 ("Winter Wind") and No 12 ("Ocean") are examples of such works. In the "Ocean" study, almost every bar (measure) of music is simply based on one chord, but contains 32 notes.

The thing with Chopin is that that he is famous for his unusual harmonies and his unusual and complex harmonic sequences. And what he was the absolute master of was keeping the rhythmic left hand part constant while taking a right hand part that started as a simple melodic sequence of just four or five notes and steadily making it ever more complex until you get a sequence of something like 23 notes played in the time of five where the original five note sequence is still audible within the long and complex sequence. And of course, the technique required to play it well is something that takes hours and hours of hard work to develop. Let me be clear, it is an ability I do not have.

 

[JaredJames]

If you're trying to reproduce the specific notes, then yes you are playing it by ear. If you're merely trying to reproduce the style, then no, you are not playing it by ear.

Oh, of course the style isn't. See what you're on about there.

But as above and in the context of the OP, I took it to mean trying to play a specific song of his.

Anyhow, bit of a busy day ahead (what with the rapture and everything ) so must shoot off for a while.

 

[Awesomesauce]

Well, I would suggest to you that it is not what is generally meant by ‘playing by ear’. Usually, someone who is described as ‘playing by ear’ is someone who cannot read music at all, and would not have the faintest idea what was meant by ‘a chord of C major’ or ‘a chord of A minor’. All they do is work out how to play something that sounds like the piece that they have heard. I have encountered some people who are astonishingly good at it, and for someone who learned more formally, it is always a mystifying ability.

Although playing a designated chord sequence is not playing from sheet music, neither is it playing by ear. Nor is it improvisation. Just because you are not reading from a manuscript, you're still playing a pre-planned sequence. And again, I would suggest to you it is the way that a fair proportion of pop musicians operate. They learn one chord sequence for the verse, shift to a second sequence for the hook, and possibly a third one for the middle eight. And that’s it. Put a Mozart sonata in front of them and they wouldn’t have a clue. But it is still not playing by ear. Or not what is usually meant by that term.

Someone who is described as playing by ear does not necessarily mean they cannot read music. Playing by ear simply means someone who listens to a piece (however many times), and can recreate the melody without any sheet music. There are many people who can play both by ear and read from sheets very well. It's not always disconnected.
That's it.