Why does the U.S. continue to provide military aid to Israel?

[Cyrus]

Checked out the Palestinian kitchen.

You should have put the fridge back in the kitchen for them and say "I think you dropped this." :rofl:

 

[estro]

lol, that's hilarious. I hope no one got hurt. What did you guys do in return?

Actually there is nothing we could do. Palestinians are very creative and such things were almost a routine.

 

[vertices]

I thought of something else today... Israel won every territory it has in wars that it didn't start. Is this not correct? It won the West Bank, the Golan Heights, and the Gaza Strip in wars that Israel, quite frankly, did not instigate. Now, my facts may be wrong on the war in 1967 (tbh I can't remember if Israel started the war or not), but I know the 1948 war was defensive. And if you win territory in a war you didn't start... I say let them keep it. To the victor go the spoils of the enemy.

Well the territory captured by Israel in 1967 is theirs - this is uncontroversial insofar as all the Arab states are willing to accept this.

However, it is unacceptable and morally reprehensible when Israel encroaches further and further into Palestinian territories, annexing land that is clearly not their's. The whole world recognises that this is wrong and totally in defiance of International Law (hence the term "occupied territories"). I mean, imagine the trauma of having menacing soldiers barge their way into your home to forcibly evict you in the middle of the night (that's when it always happens) - hundreds of Arabs who've lived in Jerusalem for generations are in this awful predicament. This is one of the state policies alongside the crippling, pain and death-inducing blockade imposed on Gazans that Israel must immediately reconsider.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Well the territory captured by Israel in 1967 is theirs - this is uncontroversial insofar as all the Arab states are willing to accept this.

However, it is unacceptable and morally reprehensible when Israel encroaches further and further into Palestinian territories, annexing land that is clearly not their's. The whole world recognises that this is wrong and totally in defiance of International Law (hence the term "occupied territories"). I mean, imagine the trauma of having menacing soldiers barge their way into your home to forcibly evict you in the middle of the night (that's when it always happens) - hundreds of Arabs who've lived in Jerusalem for generations are in this awful predicament. This is one of the state policies alongside the crippling, pain and death-inducing blockade imposed on Gazans that Israel must immediately reconsider.

The West Bank was captured in 1967, as was the Gaza strip, and Israel ended up giving back other territories for peace.

 

[zomgwtf]

I somewhat cringe when I hear people continually say 'international law'. I'm not entirely sure why people think international law is ACTUALLY 'laws' that need to upheld. It's just an 'idea', one that in my opinion fails miserably.

I tend to think people should be more realist than idealist. And right now the 'realist' in me is saying that if no one is willing to stop Israel then Israel has every right to do whatever it wants to. I also feel that if no one is going to stop a nation from commiting genocide then it has every right to. I wouldn't agree that no one should stop them, but if no one is going to then shut up.

Zombieland: Nut up or shut up. International law warriors have yet to nut up.

 

[mheslep]

...I remember doing a mounted patrol in Hevron, they drooped refrigerator on our jeep.

Along with a cry of Allahu Akbar! ?

 

[vertices]

I somewhat cringe when I hear people continually say 'international law'. I'm not entirely sure why people think international law is ACTUALLY 'laws' that need to upheld. It's just an 'idea', one that in my opinion fails miserably.

I tend to think people should be more realist than idealist. And right now the 'realist' in me is saying that if no one is willing to stop Israel then Israel has every right to do whatever it wants to. I also feel that if no one is going to stop a nation from commiting genocide then it has every right to. I wouldn't agree that no one should stop them, but if no one is going to then shut up.

Zombieland: Nut up or shut up. International law warriors have yet to nut up.

I mentioned International Law once in a very specific context - the whole world thinks Israel is wrong in continuing to expropriate land from the Palestinians (the land grabs go way beyond the internationally recognised 1967 'green line') and displace people from their homes.

I wasn't actually discussing the merits of it but because you want me to(!), these are two pennies:

I kind of disagree with your logic that because IL can't be enforced, this renders it useless (this is essentially what you're saying right?). Yes it is a mere 'idea' but it is one that's incredibly powerful.

In game theory you have a situation called the prisoners dilemma which stipulates that you have a lot to lose if you don't play by the rules. In the case of the 'players' of the game being human beings, the state can perhaps mete out punishment to the cheaters (eg. people being fined for speeding).

When the players are nation states, there is no agent to keep them in check as such. However, the damage to nasty state's 'reputation' is a stern form of punishment. Israel is fast becoming a pariah state; it has already lost Turkey as an ally and even the US is beginning to see it as a liability.

 

[mheslep]

- the whole world thinks

When will folks finally stop posting on behalf of the whole world? It's ridiculous.

 

[Evo]

I mentioned International Law once in a very specific context - the whole world thinks Israel is wrong in continuing to expropriate land from the Palestinians (the land grabs go way beyond the internationally recognised 1967 'green line') and displace people from their homes.

No, only a tiny fragment think that. And it's not hard to guess who those are.

 

[vertices]

No, only a tiny fragment think that. And it's not hard to guess who those are.

I have to go to bed now, but yes sorry when I said the "whole world", what I meant was the "whole world minus Micronesia, Marshall Islands, Tuvalu and Nauru". I'm sorry if I have offended anyone from these countries

See: http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2008/ga10791.doc.htm. Scroll down to Annex IV (UN Vote on Peaceful Settlement - ie. the resolution that calls for a two-state settlement based on the June 1967 border)

The resolution itself can be found here:

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/cd358b22995a4b078525767e006ac786?OpenDocument

 

[Evo]

I have to go to bed now, but yes sorry when I said the "whole world", what I meant was the "whole world minus Micronesia, Marshall Islands, Tuvalu and Nauru". I'm sorry if I have offended anyone from these countries

See: http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2008/ga10791.doc.htm. Scroll down to Annex IV (UN Vote on Peaceful Settlement - ie. the resolution that calls for a two-state settlement based on the June 1967 border)

The resolution itself can be found here:

http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/cd358b22995a4b078525767e006ac786?OpenDocument

The UN is not viewed favorably by many.

 

[zomgwtf]

The UN is not viewed favorably by many.

me included! *raises hand*

 

[estro]

...
I have to go to bed now, but yes sorry when I said the "whole world", what I meant was the "whole world minus Micronesia, Marshall Islands, Tuvalu and Nauru". I'm sorry if I have offended anyone from these countries
...

I believe you forgot a couple of countries or two...

I mentioned International Law once in a very specific context - the whole world thinks Israel is wrong in continuing to expropriate land from the Palestinians (the land grabs go way beyond the internationally recognised 1967 'green line') and displace people from their homes.

Can you be specific? What lands?
I believe we can make this interesting...

 

[vertices]

The UN is not viewed favorably by many.

Did you read the Annex 4?

The question isn't about how favourably UN is seen - it is about how the world voted in a modest resolution calling on Israel not to encroach and build settlements on land that is not their's.

BTW Evo where do you get your facts from (genuine question)? Other than the US and Israel, can you name me one democratic state that has ever been consistently against the UN on record? (I'd be interested to know).

 

[vertices]

Can you be specific? What lands?
I believe we can make this interesting...

I am primarily talking about East Jerusalem (although land grabs may well be occurring in other WB areas, but I don't know about them)

Take the separation wall - to Israel I'm sure it is seen as a means of security, but to Palestinians it is an apartheid wall which cruelly and ruthlessly snakes through Palestinian land. As an Israeli you cannot see this, but do you have an idea how much damage and distress it causes to ordinary Palestinians? This is an example of what I way saying about both sides being unable to comprehend the misery felt by the other..

 

[zomgwtf]

Did you read the Annex 4?

The question isn't about how favourably UN is seen - it is about how the world voted in a modest resolution calling on Israel not to encroach and build settlements on land that is not their's.

BTW Evo where do you get your facts from (genuine question)? Other than the US and Israel, can you name me one democratic state that has ever been consistently against the UN on record? (I'd be interested to know).

It's become a joke and I think all the developed nations recognize that. Have you ever heard of the 'League of Nations'. Yet another fail.

It doesn't matter what the governments say in these meetings, their foreign policy matters and what their citizens say. I can tell you that a lot of Canadians don't care about the UN or "International Laws" and I can say that most Americans don't care either. The Americans aren't surprising considering how much money they fork out. A lot of European countries don't care for it anymore. I'd say NATO is a better option.

The only countries that really 'embrace' the UN idea or International Laws idea are the small useless countries of the world. Normally they embrace it just to take advantage of it. "LOL International Law SAYS SO!". How many criminals has USA given up according to International Law?

 

[estro]

I am primarily talking about East Jerusalem (although land grabs may well be occurring in other WB areas, but I don't know about them)

Jerusalem is a Jewish capital since ancient times, and will be such forever.

Take the separation wall - to Israel I'm sure it is seen as a means of security, but to Palestinians it is an apartheid wall which cruelly and ruthlessly snakes through Palestinian land. As an Israeli you cannot see this, but do you have an idea how much damage and distress it causes to ordinary Palestinians? This is an example of what I way saying about both sides being unable to comprehend the misery felt by the other..

The wall in on our territory [67, you mentioned before?], are you sure you know what you talking about?

 

[OmCheeto]

...

Take the separation wall - to Israel I'm sure it is seen as a means of security, but to Palestinians it is an apartheid wall which cruelly and ruthlessly snakes through Palestinian land. As an Israeli you cannot see this, but do you have an idea how much damage and distress it causes to ordinary Palestinians? This is an example of what I way saying about both sides being unable to comprehend the misery felt by the other..

Oh! We've got those here in America also. We call them fences. They are everywhere. I've never quite seen them as cruel or ruthless, just necessary devices. Kind of like having a door on the bathroom, to keep people out while you are pooping.

One thing we don't have to do though is make them out of steel and extend them many meters underground, like the Egyptian fence does.

Wait a minute. What does this have to do with financial aid to Israel? Are the walls funded by other countries?

 

[TubbaBlubba]

Jerusalem is a Jewish capital since ancient times, and will be such forever.

It's also been a holy city of Islam for 1500 years.

 

[estro]

...
Wait a minute. What does this have to do with financial aid to Israel? Are the walls funded by other countries?

No, we just having discussion on some other interesting points=)
So you are aware of historic events, now you just have to be aware of the timeline involving these events.

It's also been a holy city of Islam for 1500 years.

Oh, really? What is your points? The Islam is little bit late on making Jerusalem holy for them. [By another 1500 years]

The oldest part of the city, the City of David was settled in the 4th millennium BCE, making it one of the oldest cities in the world. Jerusalem is the holiest city in Judaism and has been the spiritual center of the Jewish people since c. 1000 BCE, when David the King of Israel first established it as the capital of the united Kingdom of Israel, and his son Solomon commissioned the building of the First Temple in the city.

The al-Aqsa Mosque was originally a small prayer house built by the Rashidun caliph Umar, but was rebuilt and expanded by the Ummayad caliph Abd al-Malik and finished by his son al-Walid in 705 CE.

- Wikipedia.

1. Al-Aqsa was build on the ruins of Jewish most sacred temple.

2. Jerusalem was build by the Jews, and destroyed many times by others, including the Muslims.

0. (Before anything else). I advise you to learn some history before making chichi statements. PM me and I happily advise some good books on the topic. This way the opinionated kid will transform to the knowing kid.

 

[vertices]

It's become a joke and I think all the developed nations recognize that. Have you ever heard of the 'League of Nations'. Yet another fail.

It doesn't matter what the governments say in these meetings, their foreign policy matters and what their citizens say. I can tell you that a lot of Canadians don't care about the UN or "International Laws" and I can say that most Americans don't care either. The Americans aren't surprising considering how much money they fork out. A lot of European countries don't care for it anymore. I'd say NATO is a better option.

The only countries that really 'embrace' the UN idea or International Laws idea are the small useless countries of the world. Normally they embrace it just to take advantage of it. "LOL International Law SAYS SO!". How many criminals has USA given up according to International Law?

I am not going to get drawn into a debate about the UN. As I said, no one here is claiming that we should try to embrace International Law - so no reason to get so hot and bothered over this.

What I am saying is simply this: when whole world* comes together (and sends their delegates to the UN) to call on Israel to commit to universal standards of moral decency - this is meant to be diplomatic slap in the face. This probably won't ever result in any military action but it still has real consequences (which I mentioned in my previous post). No self respecting state would want to wantonly damage its reputation because ultimately, what goes around comes around.

*before people get their knickers in a twist, let me add the qualification, "bar Tuvalu, Nauru, Tuavalu and Micronesia" - as an aside, has anyone ever heard of these countries?

The only countries that really 'embrace' the UN idea or International Laws idea are the small useless countries of the world. Normally they embrace it just to take advantage of it.

like Tuvalu, Nauru, Tuavalu and Micronesia?

 

[estro]

I am primarily talking about East Jerusalem (although land grabs may well be occurring in other WB areas, but I don't know about them)

Take the separation wall - to Israel I'm sure it is seen as a means of security, but to Palestinians it is an apartheid wall which cruelly and ruthlessly snakes through Palestinian land. As an Israeli you cannot see this, but do you have an idea how much damage and distress it causes to ordinary Palestinians? This is an example of what I way saying about both sides being unable to comprehend the misery felt by the other..

Jerusalem is a Jewish capital since ancient times, and will be such forever.

The wall in on our territory [67, you mentioned before?], are you sure you know what you talking about?

The oldest part of the city, the City of David was settled in the 4th millennium BCE, making it one of the oldest cities in the world. Jerusalem is the holiest city in Judaism and has been the spiritual center of the Jewish people since c. 1000 BCE, when David the King of Israel first established it as the capital of the united Kingdom of Israel, and his son Solomon commissioned the building of the First Temple in the city.

The al-Aqsa Mosque was originally a small prayer house built by the Rashidun caliph Umar, but was rebuilt and expanded by the Ummayad caliph Abd al-Malik and finished by his son al-Walid in 705 CE.

You have made proclamation.
I gave you contradictory facts, and asked a question. I'm curiously waiting for your replay.

 

[vertices]

Oh! We've got those here in America also. We call them fences. They are everywhere. I've never quite seen them as cruel or ruthless, just necessary devices. Kind of like having a door on the bathroom, to keep people out while you are pooping.

I'll put it out there, I don't believe in borders in general.. but I'd have no problem if the wall was inside Israel. There is a problem when the wall encroaches on Palestinian territories. It is cruel and ruthless when it encircles neighbourhoods cutting them off from each other, when it forcibly demands the mass eviction of hundreds of families which dare lie in its path and when it uproots ancient olive trees, once a livelihood for the affected Palestinian families. The wall has effectively divided the WB into cantons peppered with checkpoints, which are are unimaginably inhumane (infact my attitude towards Israel only hardened upon witnessing state-sanctioned collective punishment at these checkpoints).

Wait a minute. What does this have to do with financial aid to Israel? Are the walls funded by other countries?

Well, ofcourse. Israel receives ~$billion from the US (goes without saying, a vast sum of money). To my mind, the question is why does the US financially support Israel in the face of all this intransigence, especially when 30,000 children are dying every day of starvation.

 

[zomgwtf]

*before people get their knickers in a twist, let me add the qualification, "bar Tuvalu, Nauru, Tuavalu and Micronesia" - as an aside, has anyone ever heard of these countries?



like Tuvalu, Nauru, Tuavalu and Micronesia?

What are you going on about? I'm seriously debating reporting you for spreading misinformation.

The countries that were against were:
Against: Australia, Israel, Marshall Islands, Micronesia (Federated States of), Nauru, Palau, United States.

The ones that abstained were:
Abstain: Cameroon, Canada, Tonga.

And the ones absent were:
Absent: Belize, Burkina Faso, Chad, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Kiribati, Madagascar, Malawi, Niger, Rwanda, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Sao Tome and Principe, Seychelles, Sierra Leone, Turkmenistan, Tuvalu, United Republic of Tanzania, Vanuatu.

The majority of countries voting 'in favour' are really useless countries. In my mind what Afghanistan has to say about the international stage is completely meaningless. This is true for probably 90% of the countries that go to UN meetings.

Nothing will ever come out of the UN. What have they done that has helped the international community? Nothing. No wars prevented and no wars stopped no mass genocides prevented and nothing done when they occur.

Countries really don't care what UN says about them, it's no such 'slap in the face' to Israel. They ALREADY know that 90% of the Muslim world hates them and some developed nations don't agree with their militant actions, so what? As long as they have the support and back up of various power houses of the world they can continue as they were.

 

[vertices]

zomgwtf:

In favour: Afghanistan, Albania, Algeria, Andorra, Angola, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Armenia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Bahamas, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Barbados, Belarus, Belgium, Belize, Benin, Bhutan, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Botswana, Brazil, Brunei Darussalam, Bulgaria, Burundi, Cambodia, Canada, Cape Verde, Central African Republic, Chile, China, Colombia, Comoros, Congo, Costa Rica, Croatia, Cuba, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Democratic People’s Republic of Korea, Denmark, Djibouti, Dominica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Egypt, El Salvador, Eritrea, Estonia, Ethiopia, Finland, France, Gabon, Gambia, Georgia, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Grenada, Guatemala, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Guyana, Honduras, Hungary, Iceland, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Ireland, Italy, Jamaica, Japan, Jordan, Kazakhstan, Kenya, Kuwait, Kyrgyzstan, Lao People’s Democratic Republic, Latvia, Lebanon, Lesotho, Liberia, Libya, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malaysia, Maldives, Mali, Malta, Mauritania, Mauritius, Mexico, Monaco, Mongolia, Montenegro, Morocco, Mozambique, Myanmar, Namibia, Nepal, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Nigeria, Norway, Oman, Pakistan, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Philippines, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Republic of Korea, Republic of Moldova, Romania, Russian Federation, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Samoa, San Marino, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Serbia, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, Solomon Islands, Somalia, South Africa, Spain, Sri Lanka, Sudan, Suriname, Swaziland, Sweden, Switzerland, Syria, Tajikistan, Thailand, The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Timor-Leste, Togo, Trinidad and Tobago, Tunisia, Turkey, Uganda, Ukraine, United Arab Emirates, United Kingdom, Uruguay, Uzbekistan, Venezuela, Viet Nam, Yemen, Zambia, Zimbabwe.

Keep yer knickers on. Here is an exercise: count the number of countries above. And count the numbers you listed.

You do realize that you are offending the pretty much the whole world by labelling them as 'useless'?

Your comment frankly scares me - they could have come out of pre-civil rights, Jim Crow America. Every human being in the world, be they black, white, male, female, Muslim, Christian should have their voices heard (I can't believe I am having to spell that out).

You are clearly saying some voices should be repressed. Truly shocking.

 

[Office_Shredder]

Your comment frankly scares me - they could have come out of pre-civil rights, Jim Crow America. Every human being in the world, be they black, white, male, female, Muslim, Christian should have their voices heard (I can't believe I am having to spell that out).

You were literally just minutes ago claiming that Micronesia voicing support for Israel was irrelevant because nobody has ever heard of that country before

 

[estro]

vertices,
I am still waiting for your answer to my last post here...
If you unable to support your proclamations, I'll have conclusions about the worth of your "opinions", considering the report button in the process of reading your future posts.

 

[vertices]

estro: there are somethings I can't argue against with people.

For example, the Qu'ran contains some downright sexist and homophobic passages but it is futile to argue against such things with hardcore Muslims.

Similarly, when you say that Jerusalem historically belongs to Jews. You believe what you believe and I am not going argue with you on a physics forum of all places.

All I will say is that generations of Palestinians have lived in Jerusalem, and these people are NOT responsible for their ancestors' actions (much like the people of European ancestry living in the New World are not responsible for the actions their ancestors). Israel is brutally expelling hundreds of families who can trace their roots in Jerusalem back hundreds of years. To any rational observer this is blatant injustice.

 

[vertices]

You were literally just minutes ago claiming that Micronesia voicing support for Israel was irrelevant because nobody has ever heard of that country before

erm, no. Did you note my language - "as an aside...". It's called 'making an observation'.

I said nothing disparaging or racist about these countries.

 

[estro]

estro: there are somethings I can't argue against with people.

And I know why.

...
Similarly, when you say that Jerusalem historically belongs to Jews. You believe what you believe and I am not going argue with you on a physics forum of all places.

This has nothing to do with believe, but only historical facts.

 

[vertices]

This has nothing to do with believe, but only historical facts.

So let me get this straight - you think it is perfectly okay for the Israeli State to kick hundreds of people out of their homes. Homes they have resided in for generations.

Just checking.

 

[Office_Shredder]

erm, no. Did you note my language - "as an aside...". It's called 'making an observation'.

I said nothing disparaging or racist about these countries.

It's similarly an observation that Afghanistan's opinion means nothing on an international scale

 

[vertices]

It's similarly an observation that Afghanistan's opinion means nothing on an international scale

pray tell. where did I say the opinions of the people residing in Marshall Islands, Micronesia (Federated States of), Nauru and Palau mean nothing.

 

[zomgwtf]

zomgwtf:



Keep yer knickers on. Here is an exercise: count the number of countries above. And count the numbers you listed.

You do realize that you are offending the pretty much the whole world by labelling them as 'useless'?

Your comment frankly scares me - they could have come out of pre-civil rights, Jim Crow America. Every human being in the world, be they black, white, male, female, Muslim, Christian should have their voices heard (I can't believe I am having to spell that out).

You are clearly saying some voices should be repressed. Truly shocking.

It doesn't matter the numbers, it matters the power they hold, first of all.

Second of all the point of me listing the ACTUALLY countries that voted against, abstained, or were absent was to show that your continuous posting of 'the whole world voted for blah blah slap in Israels face ... well except these 3 rather minor countries' was complete misinformation and I will not stand for it, regardless of if it's on topic to my thread or not.

Third of all, I could care less if the 'rest of the world' gets offended because I call their country useless on an international level. They probably know it's true anyways deep down.

Fourth of all, the UN is not about 'all the people of the world voicing their opinion,' it's a ****ing political 'tool' and right now the countries enjoying it the most happen to be rather insiginifcant on the international level.

Fifth of all 'voices' of individuals shouldn't be 'repressed' however many of the governments you have listed as voting 'for' in this huge monumental slap to Israels face repress their people in much worse ways than just saying 'lol shut up'. So don't try and take this 'high moral ground' argument with me on that issue. That's complete bogus.

Face it: The UN is quite useless and powerless when it comes to actually getting stuff done. They talk a lot at their meetings, and whenever it's in a countries favour they make a big huge huff and puff of 'OH WELL THIS AND THAT OF THE UN AND IL AND BLAH BLAH' but no actions. Big waste of money.

 

[vertices]

It doesn't matter the numbers, it matters the power they hold, first of all.

Second of all the point of me listing the ACTUALLY countries that voted against, abstained, or were absent was to show that your continuous posting of 'the whole world voted for blah blah slap in Israels face ... well except these 3 rather minor countries' was complete misinformation and I will not stand for it, regardless of if it's on topic to my thread or not.

Third of all, I could care less if the 'rest of the world' gets offended because I call their country useless on an international level. They probably know it's true anyways deep down.

Fourth of all, the UN is not about 'all the people of the world voicing their opinion,' it's a ****ing political 'tool' and right now the countries enjoying it the most happen to be rather insiginifcant on the international level.

Fifth of all 'voices' of individuals shouldn't be 'repressed' however many of the governments you have listed as voting 'for' in this huge monumental slap to Israels face repress their people in much worse ways than just saying 'lol shut up'. So don't try and take this 'high moral ground' argument with me on that issue. That's complete bogus.

Face it: The UN is quite useless and powerless when it comes to actually getting stuff done. They talk a lot at their meetings, and whenever it's in a countries favour they make a big huge huff and puff of 'OH WELL THIS AND THAT OF THE UN AND IL AND BLAH BLAH' but no actions. Big waste of money.

You are like a broken record aren't you? I have no interest in debating about the UN and how bad it is.

World opinion matters to me. It clearly doesn't to you.

Nothing more to be said.