Exploring Holy Books: A Scientific Perspective

In summary, the conversation revolves around reading holy books for insight and entertainment. The participants have a variety of backgrounds and are exploring different religious texts, including the Bible, Qu'ran, and Upanishads. They discuss the relationship between these texts and the abrahamic religions, as well as the history and context behind certain practices and beliefs. There is also a mention of the importance of reading translations carefully, as cultural and societal norms may have changed since the original texts were written.
  • #1
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I don't adhere to any religion nor have I been conviced there is a God. However I have recently decided that in order to better understand human history and current world affairs it would be very benefical to read the major holy books. My GF is currently reading the Bible and I am about 100 pages into the Qur'an. I also picked up the Upanishads and would like to get a Torah. Now, finishing all these will likely take me a couple years (with the Qur'an I can only handle reading maybe 15 pages at a time!). Does anyone else read holy books for "fun"?
 
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  • #2
My faves in college were translations of the writings of Eastern philosophy/religion, especially Zen Buddhism. And yes, I did read them for insight/entertainment, though I had a double major in Philosophy and English Lit, and they did have some bearing on my course-work. Most interesting to me was the progression from the Indian "wheel of life" to the Buddhist concept of progressive enlightenment to the Zen concept of "awakening" in a real "aha" moment. If you want to come full circle and read about Zen-like concepts being applied to Indian mysticism, I highly recommend "Be Here Now" by Baba Ram Dass (Richard Alpert).
 
  • #3
Since I was raised Catholic, I had never read or owned a Bible. My youger daughter was given one, so I started reading it. It's frightening and interesting what was considered acceptable back then, I'm reading it as a form of history.
 
  • #4
Or like W.C. fields you could read them looking for loopholes
 
  • #5
Evo said:
Since I was raised Catholic, I had never read or owned a Bible. My youger daughter was given one, so I started reading it. It's frightening and interesting what was considered acceptable back then, I'm reading it as a form of history.

Yeah my GF tells me there is a lot of animal sacrifice early in the Bible.
 
  • #6
Greg Bernhardt said:
Yeah my GF tells me there is a lot of animal sacrifice early in the Bible.
:frown: Yes, a lot.
 
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  • #7
Evo said:
:frown: Yes, a lot.

Which surprised me because I thought animal sacrifice was Pagan and frowned on by the Church.

Also back to the Qu'ran. I was very surprised to see many "Biblical" characters in the text. I wonder what the relationship between the two books are and why they share characters.
 
  • #8
God said to Abraham "Kill me a son" and Abe said "Man, you got to be putting me on." God said "No." Abe said "What?" God said "You can do what you want, Abe, but...next time you see me coming you'd better run." Abe said "Where do you want this killing done?" and God said "Out on Highway 61."

Wait til' you read about God's bet with the devil about Job, and the horrors that God visited on Job to win the bet and prove his point. There is not a lot of love and kumbaya in the old testament.
 
  • #9
Greg Bernhardt said:
Which surprised me because I thought animal sacrifice was Pagan and frowned on by the Church.

Also back to the Qu'ran. I was very surprised to see many "Biblical" characters in the text. I wonder what the relationship between the two books are and why they share characters.
Mohammed believed he was a prophet of the same God as in the Old testament. I'll let someone more knowledgeable flesh that out.
 
  • #10
Greg Bernhardt said:
Which surprised me because I thought animal sacrifice was Pagan and frowned on by the Church.

Also back to the Qu'ran. I was very surprised to see many "Biblical" characters in the text. I wonder what the relationship between the two books are and why they share characters.

Are they not both abrahamic religions?Give some of this a read. I know it is wikipedia and religion so there could be some bias but a lot of it is goo dstuff as far as I have read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religion
 
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  • #11
The Bible even goes into what the priests were to wear, relly elaborate stuff, colorful, purple, with pomegranites embroidered on the hems, God was quite the fashion designer.
 
  • #12
Greg Bernhardt said:
Which surprised me because I thought animal sacrifice was Pagan and frowned on by the Church.

Also back to the Qu'ran. I was very surprised to see many "Biblical" characters in the text. I wonder what the relationship between the two books are and why they share characters.
The old testament predated the Church, and ritual sacrifices were performed by observant Jews well past the time of Jesus. Also, the Bible and Qu'ran came from a common religious tradition - Jesus is just another in a long line of prophets in the latter, though.
 
  • #13
_Mayday_ said:
Are they not both abrahamic religions?


Give some of this a read. I know it is wikipedia and religion so there could be some bias but a lot of it is goo dstuff as far as I have read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abrahamic_religion

No idea, I have really no background in any relgion or as a historical concept. Unfortunately the Qu'ran doesn't give background information or any history (yet). So when a character is mentioned, it feels very arbitrary.
 
  • #14
Greg Bernhardt said:
No idea, I have really no background in any relgion or as a historical concept. Unfortunately the Qu'ran doesn't give background information or any history (yet). So when a character is mentioned, it feels very arbitrary.
Reading translations of original texts is a bit dicey at times, because these (the Torah and Qu'ran especially) were passed down orally (rote memorization) for countless generations, and there was a social context that those adherents had that we lack today. For instance, if you read Leviticus, it was a grave offense for Jews to wear clothing woven of more than one type of fiber. In other words, all-cotton was OK, all-wool was OK, but a blend forbidden. Slavery was permitted, though releasing slaves was encouraged in Jubilee years. There were also some interesting social arrangements permissible if one's male relatives died, leaving their spouses widowed. If you can take a course locally that focuses on the historical placement of these texts in the context of nomadic tribes with oral traditions, who eventually settled and transitioned to agriculture, I think you'll get a lot more out of your readings.
 
  • #15
It would be fun to read the books together on here. I'm willing to buy the Quran, I have a bible and would be interested in reading the Torah as well. We'd all have to have the same versions though.
 
  • #16
http://interoz.com/egypt/bkofdead.htm" [Broken]

I got this for my 12th birthday because I was fascinated with hieroglyphics.
 
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  • #17
Good suggestions Turbo. We do have some people here with quite an historical background. I believe Arildno is one.
 
  • #18
Funny, I know someone that read the Bhagavad Gita and although he is an atheist, he'd pray for the spiders he'd have to kill for research and he's the world's top authority on spiders. We're talking MANY dead spiders.
 
  • #19
Evo said:
It would be fun to read the books together on here. I'm willing to buy the Quran, I have a bible and would be interested in reading the Torah as well. We'd all have to have the same versions though.

That would be awesome. This is one one I bought. It's a simple paperback and the translation is fairly modern.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0940368188/?tag=pfamazon01-20

Maybe there is a better one, I don't know.
 
  • #20
Evo said:
It would be fun to read the books together on here. I'm willing to buy the Quran, I have a bible and would be interested in reading the Torah as well. We'd all have to have the same versions though.
Very important! The Jesuits released a translation of the Bible back in the '60s (the New Jerusalem Bible) in which they attempted to translate the earliest-known examples of each section of text. If you have a book that is written in Hebrew, translated to Aramaic, then to Greek, then to Latin, then to German, then to English there are many opportunities for error, unintentional or intentional. In their version of the Bible, Mary is a "maiden" and not a "virgin", and it appears that the word virgin crept into the Bible's Latin translations because of the Romans' long tradition of virginity cults.
 
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  • #21
Greg Bernhardt said:
That would be awesome. This is one one I bought. It's a simple paperback and the translation is fairly modern.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0940368188/?tag=pfamazon01-20

Maybe there is a better one, I don't know.
I did see one suggestion in the reviews for another one. Let's see if there are any other suggestions and then decide.

This could be a lot of fun.
 
  • #22
turbo-1 said:
Mary is a "maiden" and not a "virgin", and it appears that the word virgin crept into the Bible's Latin translations because of the Romans' long tradition of virginity cults.
The trouble with all translations is you have simply moved the argument up a level.
Does maiden imply virgin in English or simply unmarried?
It certainly used to mean virginal in many folk songs, although that usually got solved by about verse 3.
 
  • #23
mgb_phys said:
The trouble with all translations is you have simply moved the argument up a level.
Does maiden imply virgin in English or simply unmarried?
It certainly used to mean virginal in many folk songs, although that usually got solved by about verse 3.
Understood. The methodology of the Jesuits in compiling their Jerusalem Bible was to translate from the earliest known examples of each text directly into English, with the goal of producing a more historically accurate document. The Jesuits are perhaps the most scholarly branch of the Roman Catholic Church, and their penchant for questioning dogma has gotten them into hot water with the Vatican more than once.
 
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  • #24
Rather than reading just Torah, I would recommend the entire Tanach. The Stone edition of the Tanach is one of the best modern versions, and I have a copy.

Rather than just the Torah (or Chumash), one should perhaps read the entire Tanach, which is Torah, Nevi'im (Prophets) and Ketuvim (Writings - Psalms, proverbs and others)

http://www.artscroll.com/stonetanach.html (offline between Friday-sundown and Saturday-sundown EST)

or https://www.amazon.com/dp/0899062695/?tag=pfamazon01-20

All 24 books of the Torah, Prophets, and Writings are now at your fingertips in one magnificent 2,200 page volume, as interpreted by the classic sages of Talmudic and Rabbinic literature.


Torah/Chumash

Genesis (Beresh!t: "In the beginning...")
Exodus (Shemot: "Names")
Leviticus (Vayyiqra: "And he called...")
Numbers (Bamidbar: "In the desert/wilderness...")
Deuteronomy (Devarim: "Words", "Discourses", or "Things")


Nevi'im (Prophets)

I. Joshua (Yehoshua)
II. Judges (Shoftim)
III. Samuel (Shmu'el)
IV. Kings (Melakhim)

V. Isaiah (Yeshayahu)
VI. Jeremiah (Yirmiyahu)
VII. Ezekiel (Yehezq'el)
VIII. Trei Asar (The Twelve Minor Prophets)


The Ketuvim

Group I: The Three Poetic Books (Sifrei Emet)

1. Tehillim (Psalms)
2. Mishlei (Book of Proverbs)
3. `Iyyov (Book of Job)

Group II: The Five Scrolls (Hamesh Megillot)

4. Shir ha-Shirim (Song of Songs) or (Song of Solomon)
5. Ruth (Book of Ruth) (Shavuot)
6. Eikhah (Lamentations)
7. Kohelet (Ecclesiastes) (Sukkot)
8. Esther (Book of Esther) (Purim)

Group III: Other Historical Books

9. Daniel (Book of Daniel)
10. Ezra (Book of Ezra-Book of Nehemiah)
11. Divrei ha-Yamim (Chronicles)


For further readings, I would suggest the commentaries of Rashi and theRambam (Maimonides)

Judism and Islam are considered to have common Abrahmic roots. Both Jewish and Islamic traditions consider Ishmael as the ancestor of Arab people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael
 
  • #25
The methodology of the Jesuits in compiling their Jerusalem Bible was to translate from the earliest known examples of each text directly into English, with the goal of producing a more historically accurate document.
It's not that the translation is bad - it's that translations assume a common definition of the word in English.
Unless there is an appendix which states 'we take the term maiden to mean virgin' then it is more ambiguous than the original.
That's why patents and technical standards end up being written in such unreadable language, you have to define every word as you go.

To take a simple example 'bad' means something very different to a teenager and to their parent.
 
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  • #26
Greg Bernhardt said:
Which surprised me because I thought animal sacrifice was Pagan and frowned on by the Church.

Also back to the Qu'ran. I was very surprised to see many "Biblical" characters in the text. I wonder what the relationship between the two books are and why they share characters.

They share much of the Hebrew Bible because of Abraham's two sons Isaac (born of Sarah) and Ishmael (born of Hagar). Jews are descended from Isaac and Muslims are descended from Ishmael. Both religions worship the same G-d and have a tradition of interpretation and commentary. That is, in addition to the written books (which varies a little bit depending on which religion you are), they have written commentary and oral tradition/interpretation (Midrash for Jews). These commentaries and interpretations flesh out the sometimes terse stories found in the Hebrew Bible. The Qu'ran is not intended to be in any sense chronological and that sometimes seems confusing since the Hebrew Bible and Christian New Testament are basically chronological.

Both Jews and Muslims consider themselves bound by Abram's convenant with G-d. Christians generally feel that covenant was superceded by Baptism although there is some theological hair-splitting about this. The three religions are monotheistic, though Jews in particular sometimes have difficulty with the Christian Trinity and all base their legitimacy on their descent from Abraham.
The book Christians call the Old Testament is essentially the Hebrew Bible.
 
  • #27
Evo said:
It would be fun to read the books together on here. I'm willing to buy the Quran, I have a bible and would be interested in reading the Torah as well. We'd all have to have the same versions though.

Normally, when you say Torah, this is the five Books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
 
  • #28
TVP45 said:
Normally, when you say Torah, this is the five Books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.
So presumably there isn't much point reading the Torah + the old testament, given that (translations aside) they should be identical.
 
  • #29
mgb_phys said:
It's not that the translation is bad - it is that translations assume a common definition of the word in English. It is always difficult to translate somethign that has literay content while keeping it the meaning accurate.
That's why patents and technical standards end up being written in such unreadable language, you have to define every word as you go.

Unless there is an appendix which states 'we take the term maiden to mean virgin' then it is more ambiguous than the original. To take a simple example 'bad' means something very different to a teenager and to their parent.

There are concordances available to help. I use James Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible to find the original Hebrew or Greek which then offers best guesses based on contemporary usage. The "virgin" from Matthew comes from the Greek parthenos, literally maiden or unmarried daughter.
 
  • #30
The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mah%C4%81bh%C4%81rata" [Broken].

For understanding Islam the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadith" [Broken] are also very important, the oral traditions of the deeds and words of Mohammed and his followers. When I was a kid reading the Koran there was nowhere to find that stuff but now there are many sources available over the internet (and probably even in some local libraries now too.)

The Papyrus of Ani, the Egyptian Book of the Dead is awesome. I love the idea that your soul must be lighter than a feather to enter heaven. For a Lamaist take on the same thing there's the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo_Thodol" [Broken], the Tibetan Book of the Dead. There's a really awesome BBC documentary that used to be up on Google Video about it that got taken down, unfortunately.

What we have of Zoroastrianism's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avesta" [Broken]s of India and Iran.

And although it isn't a scripture for any living religion I always liked reading the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh" [Broken]. What we have left is nice and short, it's worth checking out and you could probably read the whole thing while you're visiting one of those bookstores that has nice comfy chairs and couches. It's also supposed to be the oldest written story in the world.

If there are any local colleges with a Theology department near you check out their libraries, they tend to have lots of stuff about all sorts of religions even if it's something like a Catholic school that adheres to one sect of one religion.

So yes, I like reading holy books too. :biggrin:
 
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  • #31
mgb_phys said:
So presumably there isn't much point reading the Torah + the old testament, given that (translations aside) they should be identical.
There are small differences, but those are fairly subtle and I usually have to ask a Rabbi to explain them. Given only one choice, I would read the Hebrew Bible; it's like reading Maxwell versus Resnick's textbook - the original seems preferable.
 
  • #32
Astronuc said:
Rather than reading just Torah, I would recommend the entire Tanach. The Stone edition of the Tanach is one of the best modern versions, and I have a copy.

Thanks. I wasn't aware of this. I'll check it out.
 
  • #33
Oh, and I forgot the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analects" [Broken] of Taoism. Taoism is pronounced "Dowism" by the way, like the Dow Jones Industrial Index.
 
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  • #34
TVP45 said:
The "virgin" from Matthew comes from the Greek parthenos, literally maiden or unmarried daughter.
That was my point you need an annotation that says something like - "the original Hebrew word is X and it is also used in other documents from the same period to mean Y".
So does 'parthenos' mean hadn't had sex or just unmarried, or given the society would there be no difference between the two?
Simply translating into another language, especially one as subtle and changable as English isn't enough - however good the translation.


ps. Does the Qu'ran repeat the Torah/Old Testament books or does it just provide a link to them?
 
  • #35
Greg Bernhardt said:
Yeah my GF tells me there is a lot of animal sacrifice early in the Bible.

Not to mention human sacrifice. See Abraham and Isaac.

Evo said:
It would be fun to read the books together on here. I'm willing to buy the Quran, I have a bible and would be interested in reading the Torah as well. We'd all have to have the same versions though.

One solution might be to read a version that is free online, or pick a version that is also free online. That would also permit linking to specific passages.
 
<h2>1. What is the purpose of exploring holy books from a scientific perspective?</h2><p>The purpose of exploring holy books from a scientific perspective is to gain a deeper understanding of the beliefs, teachings, and historical context of these sacred texts. By applying scientific methods and critical thinking, we can analyze the content and origins of these books and how they have shaped various cultures and societies.</p><h2>2. How does science play a role in the interpretation of holy books?</h2><p>Science can provide a framework for analyzing and interpreting the content of holy books. By using scientific methods such as textual analysis, historical research, and comparative studies, we can gain a more objective understanding of the meaning and significance of these texts.</p><h2>3. Can science and religion coexist when studying holy books?</h2><p>Yes, science and religion can coexist when studying holy books. While science may provide a different perspective on the origins and content of these texts, it does not necessarily contradict or invalidate the religious beliefs and interpretations of these books. Both can work together to provide a more comprehensive understanding.</p><h2>4. How does exploring holy books from a scientific perspective benefit society?</h2><p>Exploring holy books from a scientific perspective can benefit society by promoting critical thinking, cultural understanding, and tolerance. It can also provide a platform for open and respectful discussions about religious beliefs and practices, leading to greater acceptance and harmony among different communities.</p><h2>5. Are there any limitations to exploring holy books from a scientific perspective?</h2><p>Yes, there are limitations to exploring holy books from a scientific perspective. While science can provide valuable insights, it may not be able to fully capture the spiritual and metaphysical aspects of these texts. Additionally, some religious beliefs and practices may not be easily explained or understood through scientific methods.</p>

1. What is the purpose of exploring holy books from a scientific perspective?

The purpose of exploring holy books from a scientific perspective is to gain a deeper understanding of the beliefs, teachings, and historical context of these sacred texts. By applying scientific methods and critical thinking, we can analyze the content and origins of these books and how they have shaped various cultures and societies.

2. How does science play a role in the interpretation of holy books?

Science can provide a framework for analyzing and interpreting the content of holy books. By using scientific methods such as textual analysis, historical research, and comparative studies, we can gain a more objective understanding of the meaning and significance of these texts.

3. Can science and religion coexist when studying holy books?

Yes, science and religion can coexist when studying holy books. While science may provide a different perspective on the origins and content of these texts, it does not necessarily contradict or invalidate the religious beliefs and interpretations of these books. Both can work together to provide a more comprehensive understanding.

4. How does exploring holy books from a scientific perspective benefit society?

Exploring holy books from a scientific perspective can benefit society by promoting critical thinking, cultural understanding, and tolerance. It can also provide a platform for open and respectful discussions about religious beliefs and practices, leading to greater acceptance and harmony among different communities.

5. Are there any limitations to exploring holy books from a scientific perspective?

Yes, there are limitations to exploring holy books from a scientific perspective. While science can provide valuable insights, it may not be able to fully capture the spiritual and metaphysical aspects of these texts. Additionally, some religious beliefs and practices may not be easily explained or understood through scientific methods.

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