Full body scans for US bound flights

[Mech_Engineer]

this is (one reason) why I will NEVER fly anymore

...if the road don't get there, I ain't goin'
(after 13 years of travel I actually have anxiety attacks on the plane now)
what did me in was staring at a loose bolt on the wing in the slipstream for 3 1/2 hours then telling the crew and being told ok sir we'll fix it
yea right...ya didn't even ask which bolt!

dr

This stance is terribly ironic since you are far more likely to die in a traffic accident than flying on an airplane...

The crew probably didn't take you seriously because you are not qualified to determine if a bolt is loose, let alone if it poses a fatal risk to the aircraft. Maintenance on aircraft is very stringent compared to a lot of other things you take for granted in your life every day.

 

[Borek]

We are living a society where there is 0.000% tolerance for deaths from terrorism, but around 40,000 people die each year in traffic accidents and more than 15,000 people are killed in murders in the United States alone. All of this makes me wonder where a common-sense approach to risk mitigation is in our society...

Common sense in society? You must be kidding.

Seriously - I am with you here, this is the same blend of idiocy/media hype/policy/PR that is responsible for most simple reagents being banned from schools so that nobody gets hurt during chemistry lessons or for sharp knives being banned from art classes - but you can still break your leg playing American football. Proportions have been lost long ago. We (in Poland) follow, albeit slowly.

 

[Moonbear]

Why stop at scans? Cavity search them all!

Craziness.

That's what I keep thinking. The more intrusive the scans get, the more ways terrorists will use to hide the explosives, or find other things to use as weapons.

I think we've gotten to the point where the likelihood of a lunatic getting on a plane with you and not just trying but actually succeeding in blowing you up is considerably lower than a lunatic walking into a mall or school and succeeding in shooting you. The increasing inconveniences are far exceeding the value of the security they provide.

And what sort of x-ray dose are those full body scanners giving you? It may not be a big deal to someone who flies once or twice a year, but what about the frequent business travelers who are on planes several times a week, or the airport employees going through daily?

According to reports, the problem wasn't that new security measures need to be added, but that existing security measures needed to be followed...the person with the explosives was already on no-fly lists and was traveling with a one-way ticket with no return ticket purchased. He already should have been flagged and stopped for added searches or never even allowed to purchase a ticket to the US because he didn't qualify for entry.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

I think we've gotten to the point where the likelihood of a lunatic getting on a plane with you and not just trying but actually succeeding in blowing you up is considerably lower than a lunatic walking into a mall or school and succeeding in shooting you. The increasing inconveniences are far exceeding the value of the security they provide.

You're absolutely right. The only way to achieve 100% safety on an airplane is to remove the people from it. It's a 100% secure, travel-free zone...

And what sort of x-ray dose are those full body scanners giving you? It may not be a big deal to someone who flies once or twice a year, but what about the frequent business travelers who are on planes several times a week, or the airport employees going through daily?

None, because they use terahertz (10^12 Hz) waves, not x-rays. Terahertz is non-ionizing radiation by the way...

 

[leroyjenkens]

According to reports, the problem wasn't that new security measures need to be added, but that existing security measures needed to be followed...the person with the explosives was already on no-fly lists and was traveling with a one-way ticket with no return ticket purchased. He already should have been flagged and stopped for added searches or never even allowed to purchase a ticket to the US because he didn't qualify for entry.

Right after 9/11 he probably would have, but after a while security becomes lax again.

 

[Tobias Funke]

Will they start checking airside ground crew?
So they do THz full body imaging of every passenger, take butter knives off pilots (and confiscate sharp pointy medals from generals)
And yet they allow trucks from catering, fueling, freight companies to drive in with only a cursory check of an ID card.

Don't be silly! With these new security measures, planes are now 100% safe to travel on. That is, until the next guy smuggles something on. Then the only way to make planes safe will involve lots of lube and lots of pain. But we'll feel safe, so it's ok. I'm practicing bending over and clenching my teeth right now.

But seriously, the spirit of the above post is right. As long as the human element is there, no amount of security will stop people from getting something onboard.

 

[Moonbear]

None, because they use terahertz waves, not x-rays. Terahertz is non-ionizing radiation by the way...

Okay, based on that, I went to look up what is known about any potential health effects of being dosed with terahertz frequency waves. And as far as I can tell, very little is known. Don't you think it should be tested before turning security screeners and frequent fliers into guinea pigs? This is the grand total of what I found in my searching for articles determining if there are health effects...2 suggesting no deleterious effects on cells they tested, and 1 suggesting deleterious effects on lymphocytes (that's a type of white blood cell). That's it, 3 papers. There are a bunch more just starting to explore it for medical diagnostics over the past couple years, but nothing looking at things like cumulative exposures or long-term risks. From the three available, a brief, infrequent exposure may not be a big deal, but none of this addresses full body or frequent exposure (i.e., airport employees).

Radiat Res. 2008 Aug;170(2):224-34.
Terahertz radiation increases genomic instability in human lymphocytes.

Korenstein-Ilan A, Barbul A, Hasin P, Eliran A, Gover A, Korenstein R.

Department of Physiology and Pharmacology, Faculty of Medicine, Tel-Aviv University, Tel-Aviv, Israel. korens@post.tau.ac.il

Terahertz radiation is increasingly being applied in new and evolving technologies applied in areas such as homeland security and medical imaging. Thus a timely assessment of the potential hazards and health effects of occupational and general population exposure to THz radiation is required. We applied continuous-wave (CW) 0.1 THz radiation (0.031 mW/ cm(2)) to dividing lymphocytes for 1, 2 and 24 h and examined the changes in chromosome number of chromosomes 1, 10, 11 and 17 and changes in the replication timing of their centromeres using interphase fluorescence in situ hybridization (FISH). Chromosomes 11 and 17 were most vulnerable (about 30% increase in aneuploidy after 2 and 24 h of exposure), while chromosomes 1 and 10 were not affected. We observed changes in the asynchronous mode of replication of centromeres 11, 17 and 1 (by 40%) after 2 h of exposure and of all four centromeres after 24 h of exposure (by 50%). It is speculated that these effects are caused by radiation-induced low-frequency collective vibrational modes of proteins and DNA. Our results demonstrate that exposure of lymphocytes in vitro to a low power density of 0.1 THz radiation induces genomic instability. These findings, if verified, may suggest that such exposure may result in an increased risk of cancer.

PMID: 18666810 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...med_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=4

Altern Lab Anim. 2008 Dec;36(6):667-84.
The effects of terahertz radiation on human keratinocyte primary cultures and neural cell cultures.

Bourne N, Clothier RH, D'Arienzo M, Harrison P.

FRAME Alternatives Laboratory, School of Biomedical Sciences, University of Nottingham, Nottingham, UK.

Terahertz (THz) frequencies are found in a previously underexploited region of the radiation spectrum. This non-ionising energy is now being employed in medical imaging, so the possibility of adverse effects on human skin was evaluated. Primary cultures of normal human keratinocytes (NHKs) express adhesion molecules that comprise part of the natural barrier function of the skin. The effects of exogenous agents on this barrier function can be measured. The ND7/23 cell line, which displays the characteristics of sensory neurones, can proliferate in the undifferentiated state, but can be induced to differentiate and develop neurite-like projections. Previous studies with NHK and neural cell cultures produced no evidence of the inability of these cells to differentiate and form a barrier following THz exposure. The cells were exposed to 0.14THz radiation for times varying from 10 minutes to 24 hours. For each 80-nanosecond pulse, the cells were exposed to a peak power of between 24 and 62mW/cm(2), i.e. a total energy at peak power of 345J, or 86J at average power over 24 hours. No changes in cell activity occurred, as monitored with the resazurin reduction assay, or with the barrier function of the human corneal cells, as measured with the fluorescein leakage assay. The monitoring of differentiation by using an assay for cornified envelope formation, revealed no adverse effects. Glutathione (GSH) and heat shock protein 70 levels were examined before and after differentiation, to determine the degree of the stress response, with the effects of UVB radiation as a control. UVB induced a stress response, as did heat shock treatment at 43 degrees C, whilst 0.15THz radiation, even after 24 hours of exposure, did not. Repeated exposure to THz radiation at this level, also resulted in no detectable adverse reactions. 2008 FRAME.

PMID: 19154093 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...med_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=1

Health Phys. 2007 Apr;92(4):349-57.
Cytogenetic observations in human peripheral blood leukocytes following in vitro exposure to THz radiation: a pilot study.

Zeni O, Gallerano GP, Perrotta A, Romanò M, Sannino A, Sarti M, D'Arienzo M, Doria A, Giovenale E, Lai A, Messina G, Scarfì MR.

Interuniversity Center on Interaction Between Electromagnetic Fields and Biosystems (ICEmB) at CNR-IREA, Via Diocleziano 328-80124 Napoli, Italy. zeni.o@irea.cnr.it

Emerging technologies are considering the possible use of Terahertz radiation in different fields ranging from telecommunications to biology and biomedicine. The study of the potential effects of Terahertz radiation on biological systems is therefore an important issue in order to safely develop a variety of applications. This paper describes a pilot study devoted to determine if Terahertz radiation could induce genotoxic effects in human peripheral blood leukocytes. For this purpose, human whole blood samples from healthy donors were exposed for 20 min to Terahertz radiation. Since, to our knowledge, this is the first study devoted to the evaluation of possible genotoxic effects of such radiation, different electromagnetic conditions were considered. In particular, the frequencies of 120 and 130 GHz were chosen: the first one was tested at a specific absorption rate (SAR) of 0.4 mW g-1, while the second one was tested at SAR levels of 0.24, 1.4, and 2 mW g-1. Chromosomal damage was evaluated by means of the cytokinesis block micronucleus technique, which also gives information on cell cycle kinetics. Moreover, human whole blood samples exposed to 130 GHz at SAR levels of 1.4 and 2 mW g-1 were also tested for primary DNA damage by applying the alkaline comet assay immediately after exposure. The results obtained indicate that THz exposure, in the explored electromagnetic conditions, is not able to induce either genotoxicity or alteration of cell cycle kinetics in human blood cells from healthy subjects.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...med_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=5

If they're already using the technology before fully testing the health risks, I HOPE it turns out to be harmless, but I'm not finding studies showing that's actually been determined for this particular frequency range.

 

[arildno]

Should we go that direction, can you assure us that that sub-population will not have an increase in tensions where they are already feeling the heat from the general public, and thus an increase in violent incidents?

If they choose that option as a majority solution, it simply proves they were morally degenerate to begin with, and even more severe measures against them are justified, and should have been enforced from the start.
The reason for that is, of course, because that option is an IMMORAL choice.

They should instead choose the option of ridding their own sub-communities of those with terrorist leaning, i.e, "ratting on", for example, ideological leaders preaching unwarranted hatred against non-members, rather than the wall of silence which is this sub-populations preferred choice to evil committed, and celebrated within their ranks.


To avoid to implement an extremely effective scan measure merely out of the justified fear that some immorals will become unjustifiedly enflamed by it and resort to violence is to make the immoral choice of submitting to the cruel, wilful master as a slave, and require that others do so as well.

 

[mgb_phys]

The obvious target would be the security screening queue.
One airport I fly through regularly, herds everyone into a long concrete underground corridor to go through screening. One backpack full of PE4 + nails would be messy.

And how would you respond?
Increase security waits and put more people in line for the next attack?

 

[tmyer2107]

This stance is terribly ironic since you are far more likely to die in a traffic accident than flying on an airplane...

While this is a well known fact it does little for most of the people that are afraid of flying. The reason is because that while you are driving somewhere you seem to be in control. In some cases you have no control over accidents but up until that point the sense of control is still there. When you are flying you have zero control over what happens once you board the plane. This helplessness makes a lot of people uncomfortable which causes them to be afraid to fly.

 

[Borek]

Speaking of THz radiation - does anybody know how the intensity of the radiation used in these machines compares to the intensity of radiation from natural sources? I am sitting close to my fireplace now (starting to sweat, which is OK, as I feel like I could catch cold earlier today) and as it emits a lot or IR in many ranges (I bet it emits several kW at the moment) I started to be concerned about my leukocytes.

 

[Mech_Engineer]

Okay, based on that, I went to look up what is known about any potential health effects of being dosed with terahertz frequency waves. And as far as I can tell, very little is known. Don't you think it should be tested before turning security screeners and frequent fliers into guinea pigs?

You're right that it is prudent to test the technology to make sure it is safe for human exposure. It seems likely to me that since it is a non-ionizing radiation which falls between microwaves and IR light, it risks will be similar to them in that it's primary risk will be dure to heating effects of very powerful signals.

What physical and/or biological mechanisms are present that might allow a THz wave to interact with a cell, keeping in mind that a THz wave's penetration into the skin is less than 1mm (depending on the wavelength, much less)?

This is the grand total of what I found in my searching for articles determining if there are health effects...2 suggesting no deleterious effects on cells they tested, and 1 suggesting deleterious effects on lymphocytes (that's a type of white blood cell). That's it, 3 papers. There are a bunch more just starting to explore it for medical diagnostics over the past couple years, but nothing looking at things like cumulative exposures or long-term risks. From the three available, a brief, infrequent exposure may not be a big deal, but none of this addresses full body or frequent exposure (i.e., airport employees).

If they're already using the technology before fully testing the health risks, I HOPE it turns out to be harmless, but I'm not finding studies showing that's actually been determined for this particular frequency range.

The studies do need to be done, but I wonder what will happen if they find that there is a very slight but measurable risk? Will the technology be banned even though greater risks are accepted by humanity every day (such as exposure to UV radiation from the Sun).

 

[ranger]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/30/opinion/30dowd.html]If[/PLAIN] we can’t catch a Nigerian with a powerful explosive powder in his oddly feminine-looking underpants and a syringe full of acid, a man whose own father had alerted the U.S. Embassy in Nigeria, a traveler whose ticket was paid for in cash and who didn’t check bags, whose visa renewal had been denied by the British, who had studied Arabic in Al Qaeda sanctuary Yemen, whose name was on a counterterrorism watch list, who can we catch?

Our security system is either broken, full of incompetents, or they've managed to get people on the inside. I am certain about the first two, but I refuse to believe the third.

If we don't fix the system and the people that work in the system, then they can do all the cavity searches and anal probes they want. Heck we can even screen all those who are Muslim and those who look like the stereotyped "Akhmir"...but we'll be in this very same situation again, where the incompetents suddenly beef up security because of a screw up on their end.

 

[f95toli]

We all KNOW which sub-population SHOULD be singled out as the most likely source of terrorists, and hence, which it is entirely appropriate to burden with discriminatory rules regarding safety regulations.

That is just silly. HOW exactly would you identify someone as being a member of said population?
I think we can be pretty sure that most well-organized terrorist are able to use fake passports when they need to and you can't tell if someone is a muslim (I assume this is the what you meant) by looking at him; at least not if he is wearing western clothes etc.

 

[ranger]

We all KNOW which sub-population SHOULD be singled out as the most likely source of terrorists, and hence, which it is entirely appropriate to burden with discriminatory rules regarding safety regulations.

I'm not on your pedestal and don't have the privilege of looking at someone or a group of people and say, "YOU are a security threat!" Who exactly is this subpopulation?

 

[tmyer2107]

CNN just posted another article on the issue. This one mentions their use in the US.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/TRAVEL/12/30/airport.security.screening/index.html"

 

[mgb_phys]

We all KNOW which sub-population SHOULD be singled out as the most likely source of terrorists, and hence, which it is entirely appropriate to burden with discriminatory rules regarding safety regulations.

Well in the UK it would be Irish people - so anyone Irish on an Aer-lingus or Ryanair flight should get extra screening, it would obviously be a major security risk to have any Irish crew on these planes. In Canada the highest risks would be Sikhs and Quebecois.

In the US apparently Cubans are still the greatest threat according to the recently leaked TSA document.

 

[qsa]

just think of the scanning guy as your doctor he will be sick of it in no time. Anyway I think he will go blind "doing it" to himself in a month.

 

[mheslep]

As long as one doesn't let reality make a pre-selection of targets that should be fully scanned, this will be an extermely costly, and worthless effort.

We all KNOW which sub-population SHOULD be singled out as the most likely source of terrorists, and hence, which it is entirely appropriate to burden with discriminatory rules regarding safety regulations.

Agreed.

 

[rootX]

I don't see any alternative and easier solution. Would it be optimistic to assume that this conflict will be resolved within one decade?

 

[mheslep]

Well in the UK it would be Irish people - so anyone Irish on an Aer-lingus or Ryanair flight should get extra screening, it would obviously be a major security risk to have any Irish crew on these planes. ...

Wasn't the Irish that blew up your tube on 7/7, nor as I recall have 'the troubles' ever spread onto an aircraft.

 

[rootX]

As long as one doesn't let reality make a pre-selection of targets that should be fully scanned, this will be an extermely costly, and worthless effort.

We all KNOW which sub-population SHOULD be singled out as the most likely source of terrorists, and hence, which it is entirely appropriate to burden with discriminatory rules regarding safety regulations.

I agree as far following sub population is concerned:

The suspect's name was in a database indicating "a significant terrorist connection" although it did not appear on a "no-fly" list, said New York congressman Peter King, a member of the US House of Representatives Homeland Security Committee.

But for the sub population that is Islamic/has Islamic names, Would you assure that all the Islamic terrorists can be identified through a pre-selection process and this wouldn't lower the security checks done on the people who are not in that sub population due to finite resources and use of discriminatory rules?

 

[mgb_phys]

Wasn't the Irish that blew up your tube on 7/7, nor as I recall have 'the troubles' ever spread onto an aircraft.

Casualties from 'the troubles' 3500
Casualties from Muslim terrorists 52 (also not on planes)

 

[mgb_phys]

But for the sub population that is Islamic/has Islamic names

The no-fly list is a joke

I worked for a company that developed AI datamining software. Our main business was the OFAC list, a list of foreigners that US companies must not do business with.
The list was a joke put together by a dozen different agencies, there were names of people, vessels and businesses all mixed in.
No standard spelling - we counted more than a dozen different spellings of the Libyan president.
The agencies obviously employed nobody that had ever met an Arab, half the entries had 'Al' or 'Bin' as a first name along with the rest of the name as a surname.

Assuming the airlines are just doing a match (and not using our very expensive software) there is no way anybody on the list with an arabic (or even French) name is going to be matched. The only people inconvenienced by the no fly list is anyone called "John Doe" or "Michael Mouse"

 

[edward]

The guy wasn't even on the no fly list, just the watch list along with over 500,000 other people.

A man who pays cash for a one way ticket and carried no luggage for a two week stay should have been a big red flag.

He had a two year American Visa issued in 08. Yet he was refused a visa to enter England in May.

Apparently our intelligence agencies are still not sharing data with each other.

The Spy Factory on PBS.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/spyfactory/program.html

The segment on intelligence overload is especially worth watching.

 

[LBloom]

If seeing my crotch area will save us from a terrorist attack, then by george I'll show it!






btw, there are some interesting articles about what Israel does w/o the body scanners and they haven't had an incident in 30 years.

 

[Galteeth]

Perhaps we should allow for separate planes for those that don't want to be scanned?

I like this idea.

 

[Math Is Hard]

The no-fly list is a joke

I worked for a company that developed AI datamining software. Our main business was the OFAC list, a list of foreigners that US companies must not do business with.
The list was a joke put together by a dozen different agencies, there were names of people, vessels and businesses all mixed in.
No standard spelling - we counted more than a dozen different spellings of the Libyan president.
The agencies obviously employed nobody that had ever met an Arab, half the entries had 'Al' or 'Bin' as a first name along with the rest of the name as a surname.

Assuming the airlines are just doing a match (and not using our very expensive software) there is no way anybody on the list with an arabic (or even French) name is going to be matched. The only people inconvenienced by the no fly list is anyone called "John Doe" or "Michael Mouse"

I remember that list. It was sent to us when I worked in database marketing because we were to suppress all of our client's mailings to anyone on the list. It was terrible to work with - sometimes you got complete addresses, sometimes it just gave you cities or countries that were the last known whereabouts.
I remember a bunch of records like: Al Mohammed, Lebanon; Al Mohammed, Paris, France; Al Mohammed, Jordan, etc.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Crotch checks? That's why I love the Dutch - they are so progressive!

Eventually, I expect the chemical sniffers to win the day.

 

[arildno]

Well in the UK it would be Irish people - so anyone Irish on an Aer-lingus or Ryanair flight should get extra screening, it would obviously be a major security risk to have any Irish crew on these planes. In Canada the highest risks would be Sikhs and Quebecois.

In the US apparently Cubans are still the greatest threat according to the recently leaked TSA document.

Quite right.

That is why each society has the right, and obligation, to find out WHICH sub-populations they'll need to focus their attention on.

The trivial fact that such sub-populations will differ from country and country, and from decade to decade has not the slightest relevance here.

Only the incidence level, and degree of over-representation matter.

 

[Cyrus]

Quite right.

That is why each society has the right, and obligation, to find out WHICH sub-populations they'll need to focus their attention on.

The trivial fact that such sub-populations will differ from country and country, and from decade to decade has not the slightest relevance here.

Only the incidence level, and degree of over-representation matter.

Search every middle eastern person that gets on the plane. Because really, what percentage of the airplane is going to be middle eastern, 1-2%? Let the rest of the people have normal random searches. Then you don't clog up the system searching old white ladies or military. I was at the airport and behind me were a bunch of marines. They too, had to take off their watches, shoes, belts, hats, and go through a chemical detection machine and a metal detector. REALLY you think this group of Marines are going to hijack an airplane?

Give-me-a-break. I told the marine "This aint right" when they told him to take his belt off.

(I guess that means I have to search myself when I go flying in my airplane :tongue2:)

 

[cristo]

They already have these scanners being trialled in Manchester airport in the UK. You can, however, refuse to go through them, and opt for the usual pat down search. I also heard that Muslim women were exempt from them for "religious reasons"...

REALLY you think this group of Marines are going to hijack an airplane?

Didn't you have an incident very recently where a mass murder took place inside an army base?

My understanding of profiling is that everyone is subject to the minimum security, but that some certain subset of the population is required to undergo a more thorough screening.

 

[Cyrus]

They already have these scanners being trialled in Manchester airport in the UK. You can, however, refuse to go through them, and opt for the usual pat down search. I also heard that Muslim women were exempt from them for "religious reasons"...



Didn't you have an incident very recently where a mass murder took place inside an army base?

My understanding of profiling is that everyone is subject to the minimum security, but that some certain subset of the population is required to undergo a more thorough screening.

But that guy was middle eastern (and already deemed to be nuts based on his previous actions. He was a psychiatrist and went to a medical convention and gave a talk about how everyone there were going to hell for being infidels), and should have been screened!

Besides, those marines were white.

 

[Monique]

I have a funny/sad story of an American getting onto a "flying list". He visited Amsterdam and promised a friend of him to bring back cigarette-rolling paper with the Amsterdam logo on it, as a souvenir (an innocent present). In a random luggage search they found the paper and asked if he had been doing drugs and they confiscated the paper.

The next time he had to fly he found out that he had been flagged as someone carry drug paraphernalia (!). He immediately had to come along with security personnel, was strip searched and even was asked to bend over. So now every time he flies he is treated as a drug trafficker, because some lame security officer is not able to recognize ordinary cigarette-rolling paper.

 

[Monique]

I was at the airport and behind me were a bunch of marines. They too, had to take off their watches, shoes, belts, hats, and go through a chemical detection machine and a metal detector. REALLY you think this group of Marines are going to hijack an airplane?

Give-me-a-break. I told the marine "This aint right" when they told him to take his belt off.

Wouldn't it be too easy to dress up as a marine and skip a security check? It is a basic human right to be treated equally, so I think everybody should.