If I were Garrett Lisi, I'd postdoc at Nottingham

In summary, the conversation discusses the bias in academic culture that encourages scholars to withdraw to a quiet place and the potential places for a young researcher named Garrett to continue improving E8 theory. Suggestions for ideal locations include Perimeter, Penn State, Marseille, Utrecht, and Nottingham. Some participants also suggest creating a new forum for discussing the sociology of particle physicists. The conversation also touches on the upcoming Quantum Gravity international conference in Nottingham and the top places in the world for quantum gravity/unification. Some participants express concerns about the tone and direction of the conversation.

If you were in Garrett's shoes where would you go?


  • Total voters
    26
  • #1
marcus
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A deepset culture bias says that too much limelight destroys scholars. The tradition goes back to monastery roots or even earlier. We expect scholars to withdraw to a quiet place: labor in the scriptorium and meditate in the monastery garden.

I know (my culture prepares me to expect) that it's time for Garrett to apply and get some postdoc offers--ideally even something more longterm but let's be modest in imaginings-- and disappear into some safe haven where he can share ideas with other young researchers and divide the labor. If academic physics doesn't have some suitable communal retreat at this point, something's seriously wrong with the cloister system.

So let's fantasize. Where would you go if you were Garrett? To Perimeter (if they offered) or to Penn State? or back to the surf and snowboard life? Suppose all the options were open: what would be the PERFECT place to continue improving E8 theory? Would you go to Marseille and join Rovelli's group?

I'd be seriously tempted by Utrecht. Renate Loll has taken on some topnotch postdocs, including one from UC San Diego. It's essentially Gerard 't Hooft's institute.

But I'd pick Nottingham. I'd essentially disappear into John Barrett's quantum geometry/gravity institute for about 3 years, find collaborators, and complete the theory.
I think I know why Nottingham, but might not be able to explain the choice clearly.
"f-h" who posts at PF might have some informed opinion since he knows the place.

Any body else have a preference? Visualize. As if everything were possible.
 
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  • #2
I thought I was just going to pick Nottingham, but at the last moment decided I wouldn't turn down an offer from Abhay Ashtekar or Lee Smolin either----so Penn State and Perimeter were possibilities. It's a multi-choice poll.

Maybe you think it's goofy trying to look at things from another person's perspective, but I don't. Sometimes it can clarify the issues.
What attracts me about Nottingham is that John Barrett looks and acts like a creative mathematician. He could have scooped Alain Connes (Dr. Noncommutative) last August---it wouldn't have been gentlemanly but he could have scooped him. As it was they published within a week of each other in a cordial friendly way.

Also the English are reputed to know how to make mildly eccentric people feel comfortable and at home. They are said to be not so pîssy as we are about minor non-conformity.
 
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  • #3
Have you been to Nottingham ?
I imagine if you stay on the campus it's reasonably nice - but seriously have you been into the town?
 
  • #4
marcus said:
A deepset culture bias says that too much limelight destroys scholars. The tradition goes back to monastery roots or even earlier. We expect scholars to withdraw to a quiet place: labor in the scriptorium and meditate in the monastery garden.

I know (my culture prepares me to expect) that it's time for Garrett to apply and get some postdoc offers--ideally even something more longterm but let's be modest in imaginings-- and disappear into some safe haven where he can share ideas with other young researchers and divide the labor. If academic physics doesn't have some suitable communal retreat at this point, something's seriously wrong with the cloister system.

So let's fantasize. Where would you go if you were Garrett? To Perimeter (if they offered) or to Penn State? or back to the surf and snowboard life? Suppose all the options were open: what would be the PERFECT place to continue improving E8 theory? Would you go to Marseille and join Rovelli's group?

I'd be seriously tempted by Utrecht. Renate Loll has taken on some topnotch postdocs, including one from UC San Diego. It's essentially Gerard 't Hooft's institute.

But I'd pick Nottingham. I'd essentially disappear into John Barrett's quantum geometry/gravity institute for about 3 years, find collaborators, and complete the theory.
I think I know why Nottingham, but might not be able to explain the choice clearly.
"f-h" who posts at PF might have some informed opinion since he knows the place.

Any body else have a preference? Visualize. As if everything were possible.

I think this should belong to a new forum titled "Sociology of particle physicists" which would be the place for the posts discussing things like who did his PhD where, who did his PdH with whom, who works where, etc. And The present forum should be reserved to talking about the physics and maths of beyond the standard model physics not about the people who do physics. This way, one would not have to sort out through dozens of posts to see something about about physics.

But that's just my personal opinion.


Cheers
 
  • #5
nrqed said:
I think this should belong to a new forum titled "Sociology of particle physicists" which would be the place for the posts discussing things like who did his PhD where, who did his PdH with whom, who works where, etc.

That seems to fit in this forum:
https://www.physicsforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=139
 
  • #6
Does anyone else think that this whole thing is getting slightly embarrassing? And not a little bit ironic?

Seriously, people need to calm down and approach this with the usual amount of restraint. That or just go the whole hog and buy a damn cheerleader's outfit.
 
  • #7
mgb_phys said:
Have you been to Nottingham ?
I imagine if you stay on the campus it's reasonably nice - but seriously have you been into the town?

No I haven't! So it's a lousy town? Where would you suggest instead?

I'm interested how would you describe the local unattractions. The main Quantum Gravity international conference next year (called QG2 2008) will be held there.

I think it is a serious question: what are the top places in the world for quantum gravity/unification?

I'm putting the question in a concrete way, picturing it as somebody's choice.

When Lee Smolin was coming up he spent time in places like Harvard, Princeton Advanced Study, UC Berkeley, Cambridge... finally then Penn State and then Perimeter. It was part of a bright researcher's career path to go to these places and work with various important people there.

Why aren't any of these names (except last two) coming up? Or? Can anyone mention anyone at Harvard or UC Berkeley that would be useful to work with?
 
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  • #8
Francesca says RIVERSIDE. Would you like to explain? I think it is a smart choice. John Baez at Riverside is a creative mathematician
and every so often in the history of physics they have to go to the well of pure math
and dip up a bucket of new definitions and theorems.

If someone working on a unification theory, doing things in a new way----eg. with Z2-graded algebas (socalled superalgebras) and corresponding E8 superconnection---if they go to Riverside maybe Baez helps invent just the right math.

I can see the point of Francesca's choice.

=======================

KANATO SAYS UC DAVIS! that is a really interesting choice. I wish you would explain.
To me, what UCD evokes is the idea of a Lisi-Wise collaboration, which could be extremely cool.
Both are inventing new ways of using the connection---innovative gauge theory. Both have a deSitter group interest.

Kanato, what did you have in mind (it may be different from what jumps in my head.)
 
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  • #9
Were I Garrett, my next step would be to use some fqxi money to invite the people who have manifested interest in my work, and specially the people who have criticized it or pointed need of improvement, to a reduced private workshop in my house. Were I living where he lives, of course.
 
  • #10
arivero said:
... private workshop in my house. Were I living where he lives, of course.

I think you should check MAUI on the poll!

(that option is not a university or research institute, it is the island with good waves where he lives most of the year)
 
  • #11
marcus said:
I think you should check MAUI on the poll!

(that option is not a university or research institute, it is the island with good waves where he lives most of the year)

Ah, but I am not proposing to transform the house into an ASI school. But well, that was the kind of thing people did in the 1950 and it launched one thousand ships. No wait, that was another woman. I was thinking Cecile DeWitt-Morette.

Also, the "secret seminar" in Chew house, only for non-seniors, was at the end the responsible for string theory. Or so. Hmm, perhaps not so good idea :rolleyes:.
 
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  • #12
Funny this should come up, but Lisi is in the news. A colleague sent me this -

Laid-Back Surfer Dude May Be Next Einstein
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,311952,00.html

Now if he likes surfing and snowboarding -

then he needs to check out the Department of Physics and Astronomy,
University of Canterbury - Christchurch, New Zealand :biggrin:

http://www.phys.canterbury.ac.nz/

I picked other for that reason.

Just north of Christchurch is a wonderful place where surfing and snowboarding can be accomplished in the same day!
 
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  • #13
Well I put "Maui" because I don't think you should meddle with success. If Maui works for you, stick with it.
 
  • #14
Carl, you may have a point. The environment that gives rise to the work may be critical.
 
  • #15
I can't understand why anyone would want to surf at Maui instead of the North Shore of Oahu.
 
  • #16
mgb_phys said:
Have you been to Nottingham ?
I imagine if you stay on the campus it's reasonably nice - but seriously have you been into the town?

The same could be said about the inner parts of any city in the country, though! I lived in Nottingham for four years and enjoyed my time there. Like any city, you've just got to find the nicer parts that suit your interests most. Besides, if you're a postdoc there you're bound to be living in the more suburban areas anyway.

To answer the question, I'd choose Perimeter: it seems like a fascinating place. From what I gather, the group at Nottingham is pretty good. I was taught differential geometry by John Barrett: it was the hardest course I've ever taken! I don't really know him, but from what I saw in lectures he seems like a bright guy.
 
  • #17
I knew as soon as I posted that somebody would have been there!

I was only there for a week at a conference - and not in that field.
I was staying near the cricket ground? It looked like a war zone to me, and I'm from Sheffield!
 
  • #18
Ivan Seeking said:
I can't understand why anyone would want to surf at Maui instead of the North Shore of Oahu.

Because Oahu is too crowded and expensive in comparison.
 
  • #19
Huh, we found Maui to be much more expensive.

I believe that there is one break in Maui that is claimed to make for the fastest waves anywhere.

One of my favorite videos, I thought this was a particularly nice representation of the position that Garrett finds himself in today.


Will he emerge from the whitewater? :biggrin:
 
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  • #20
1) Everybody prefers a different backdrop to do their research, some lock away in quiet monasteries others surf, yet still others need the hectic activity of a big city to relax and think.

2) Nottingham as a city sucks. That's one of the compromises one makes, one goes where the science calls not the flashy social life.

3) This is by far the most ridiculous thread I've seen on here (not counting crackpottery). I mean, Marcus, I appreciate your work as an interested bystander in summarizing and giving a birds eye view of the ongoings in the QG community, but this is science, not entertainment news! Whats next? 10 Question quizzes "What would be the perfect theory for YOU?"? You are discussing other people's personal choices! It sounds like "Are Brad and Angelina really made for each other?" or "Was it a good idea for Beckham to go to LA?"

Garrett has realized and stated himself that the media attention his theory is getting might be detrimental to getting real physicists to look at the theory. Threads like this are definitely not helping!
 
  • #21
On the science:

Garrett's theory has some very powerful, deep and conceptual problems to answer before it can be taken serious as a contender.
 
  • #22
I would go to Princeton

Work together with all the string fans. There are some guys really clever with maths and group theory. If they join 'forces' with Lisi and occupy the same 'spacetime' they would not have to step on each others 'TOEs'.

berlin
 
  • #23
nrqed said:
I think this should belong to a new forum titled "Sociology of particle physicists" which would be the place for the posts discussing things like who did his PhD where, who did his PdH with whom, who works where, etc. And The present forum should be reserved to talking about the physics and maths of beyond the standard model physics not about the people who do physics. This way, one would not have to sort out through dozens of posts to see something about about physics.

But that's just my personal opinion.


Cheers
mine, too.
 
  • #24
I would agree with robphy's post that thread is more suitable to the forum - Academic & Career Guidance

Perhaps it would be worthwhile to discuss the merits (e.g. research) of the various institutions or programs.

f-h said:
Garrett's theory has some very powerful, deep and conceptual problems
Problems or ideas/concepts? Certainly, the devil is in the details.
 
  • #25
f-h said:
2) Nottingham as a city sucks
... in your opinion.
 
  • #26
18 people have responded so far, and here are the results:

marcus says Nottingham (1)

marcus and NerfMonkey say Penn State (2)

cristo, Dense, Energex42, marcus, random3f, and william donnelly say Perimeter (6)

nobody says Marseille (0)

Bloody Beaver, gogins, and random3f say Utrecht (3)

kanato says Davis (1)

francesca and william donnelly say Riverside (2)

CarlB, Count Iblis, Dense, Ivan Seeking, wildman, and william donnelly say Maui (6)

alex caps, Astronuc, and vicnice say Other (3)

The only place specified in the Other category was Christchurch NZ whose vicinity is said to have not only excellect surfing but also (Astronuc points out) the University of Canterbury.
There were actually 24 preferences stated, because some of the 18 people took advantage of the multiple choice opportunity. I'm glad so many of us expressed their preference because it helps understand who we are. SIX of the 24 votes were for Maui---CarlB and the others clearly value independence: working on your own in a place you like, without having constant face to face with other smart researchers.

The groundswell for Maui surprised me. I automatically think that being able to spend time at the blackboard or whiteboard with others would be immensely beneficial. The present E8 theory is a beginning, call it an incipient proto-theory if you want (with a chance of making nearterm predictions). What a joy to be with other people working together to fill in the missing pieces! So that was my take, and maybe it was wrong. Anyway I was surprised so many said Maui.

Francesca and William Donnelly showed real respect for John Baez as a mentor and mathematician.

I guess I should stress that I don't think we are giving anybody guidance. Garrett Lisi will make his own way, I think, regardless of what anyone advises. By saying where we would go in his shoes we only find out about ourselves, and how the world looks to us.

Right this moment, if I asked myself that question, I would answer differently from how any of us did so far. I would choose to spend some time at Marseille as a visiting researcher if Rovelli invited because if anybody would have constructive insights to complete the picture, that's who. Odd no one picked Marseille.

The Mediterranean there is as beautiful as the Napali coast on the west side of Kauai, there are the Callenques. And it is also not so far from CERN.
 
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  • #27
In this Forum, Beyond the Standard Model, there is a thread that already discuss Lisi's work.

An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything!
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=196498

So the physics or the implications are being discussed.


I think marcus hit upon an interesting topic - what is an appropriate environment in which to develop one's ideas?

The internet has greatly expanded the possibilities. I work in the NE US for a company based in the far SW US (Pacific Coast). We do a lot of collaboration via the internet, including file sharing (sharing desktop), so collaboration is possible anywhere in the world.


I would consider Penn State, which is essentially in my neighborhood, and I know some faculty there (but in nuclear engineering and materials science). I would also entertain a position at Unversity of Canterbury, but in my case, they'd have to be interested in a nuclear engineering program, although I suppose I could do something in applied physics.


IMO, Christchurch, NZ offers a nice environment, lower cost of living than most places mentioned, and access to some nice places outdoors. The place I was thinking about has high speed internet access. Besides, Ernest Rutherford studied there, although that was 1890-1894 when he attended Canterbury College, University of New Zealand, in Christchurch.

Here is the page on research in theoretical physics - http://www.phys.canterbury.ac.nz/research/theoretical.shtml

Unfortunately the program in High Energy (Particle and Astroparticle) Physics isn't as strong.
http://www.phys.canterbury.ac.nz/research/HEP/index.shtml


Wherever Lisi goes, hopefully there will be strong theoretical and experimental programs, but since the experimental programs will likely be anywhere and everywhere, the only immediate need would be a strong theoretical and computational program to support the development and confirmation of Lisi's theory.
 
  • #28
If Dr. Lisi wanted a postdoc, he would have taken a postdoc somewhere by now (he's 39!). I don't think that just publishing a (hopefully!) important paper changes anything in how he wants to live his life. That is why I voted for Maui.

Now if Cern finds his predicted particles and he becomes World famous, then things may change. It may be very difficult for a pennyless surfer to turn down hundreds of thousands of dollars from some private univeristy.
 
  • #29
http://www.theworld.org/?q=node/14391 [Broken]

Thanks to ChrisW at Not Even Wrong blog, we learn that BBC/Public Radio International
has a program about Garrett's work. An edition of PRI's "The World"
One of the main commentors is a professor at Oxford named Marcus du Sautoy

The program was broadcast 30 November. I missed it but may be able to get the online version from theworld.org website.

http://www.theworld.org/?q=taxonomy_by_date/1/20071130 [Broken]

looks like if you scroll down a ways there's some audio to click on
Well, it didn't work for me. Clicked on the audio button and nothing happened. It's only about 5 minutes anyway.
 
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  • #30
mgb_phys said:
Have you been to Nottingham ?
I imagine if you stay on the campus it's reasonably nice - but seriously have you been into the town?


Nottingham is one of the finest cities in the UK! I live 17 miles from the centre and it is one of our favourite shopping, restaurant and theatre haunts, not to mention Nottingham Forest!
 
  • #31
Well, I don't think that Dr Lisi would put up with the British weather. But that aside, can I suggest Liverpool University.

The high energy physics department comprises some brilliant experimentalists. To search for the monopole, one has to consider something amazing.

By all accounts, Garrett is an amazing theorist, who would complement this group
 
  • #32
I liked living in Nottingham.. both the campus and city were nice. I don't like big cities, Nottingham is just the right size. And they have a lake on campus.. with boats. Fun.
That said, Christchurch is lovely too :-)
As for the actual academic side, ah well it's up to him isn't it..
 
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